Libya : A no lie zone

[Keith Millea]

Now that's three dictators down in six months - one in exile, one in jail and one buried in the desert. Who's next? Syria, Bahrain, Yemen?

Bahrain?Surely you jest,Bill.Just this week the Ambassador of Bahrain came to town to visit Hillary.Something to do with that $85 million(?) in weaponry we want to sell them, so they can continue to kill and arrest their citizens.But hey,we are the conscience of the world.......or something.:what:

[Albert Doyle]

Now that's three dictators down in six months - one in exile, one in jail and one buried in the desert. Who's next? Syria, Bahrain, Yemen?

How about the US and Israel with their swaggering war crime and torture-committing shadow military government?

[Bill Kelly]

Now that's three dictators down in six months - one in exile, one in jail and one buried in the desert. Who's next? Syria, Bahrain, Yemen?

Bahrain?Surely you jest,Bill.Just this week the Ambassador of Bahrain came to town to visit Hillary.Something to do with that $85 million(?) in weaponry we want to sell them, so they can continue to kill and arrest their citizens.But hey,we are the conscience of the world.......or something.:what:

Hi Keith,

I never say we. I wouldn't sell Bahrain anything, but the US Navy has a major base there, HQ of the fleet, and they were about to expand it before the Arab revolt began. And yes, the USA should have a straight forward policy about such dictators, but of course they don't. The revolution in Bahrain was brutally repressed, many killed, many arrested and the Pearl Roundabout - the public square where people gathered, and symbolized by a beautiful giant statute of two hands holding a pearl, was totally destroyed by the government because of what it came to represent.

While I think NATO did the right thing in Libya, at the behest of the UN and Arab League, those who thought NATO was against the dictators and for the freedom fighters need only check in with the revolution in Syria, Yemen and Bahrain, especially Bahrain, where even Al Jeezera, owned by the government of Qatar, supports the Bahrain government. The Al Jeezera reporter in Bahrain produced a one hour video that tells the story of the revolution's early days there, but it's only available in Al Jeezera English and has not been shown in Arab countries.

No. Not jesting. I'm not on the side of NATO, I'm on the side of the democratic revolutionaries and against the dictators and tyrants.

But in the relatively short period of six months - the American Revolution took seven years, three dictators down is a significant change in the major players on the game board, and the revolution is still underway in Syria, Yemen, Bahrain and a number of other countries where the events have gone unreported.

[URL="https://seeker401.wordpress.com/2011/08/16/bahrain-shouting-in-the-dark/"]Bahrain: Shouting in the dark « Follow The Money
[/URL]
As for Doyle's references to US and Israel, all I can say is that their democracies represent the will of the majority of their citizens, even if they take criminal action, though countries and nations cannot be brought to justice for criminal actions, only individuals can.

BK
Revolutionary Program

[Albert Doyle]

As for Doyle's references to US and Israel, all I can say is that their democracies represent the will of the majority of their citizens, even if they take criminal action, though countries and nations cannot be brought to justice for criminal actions, only individuals can.

BK
Revolutionary Program

Forgive me if there's something that strikes me as less than genuine about that statement. Pretending to criticize a rogue government while savoring its kills doesn't strike me as genuine. In America you don't have the option of standing outside and criticizing the government and its actions. Once you do so you are only accentuating the problem. By the way, that statement that our democracy represents the will of the majority is provably false.

The whole idea of our Constitution is that governments CAN be brought to account for their actions. The fact Mr Kelly doesn't seem to understand that represents the source of our disagreement and why he is able to make those lacking arguments so easily. He forgets to mention that no individuals are being brought to account exactly because that government is operating in contempt of what it says it represents. They did with Kennedy too. Both of them as a matter of fact.

Thanks for your information...

[Ed Jewett]

NTC taps engineer who lived in U.S. for decades as interim leader 31 Oct 2011 Libya's National Transitional Council elected Monday an engineer who lived in the United States for more than three decades to serve as acting prime minister of the transitional government [following the US-backed coup]. Abdurrahim El-Keib won the job with a bare majority, gaining 26 votes from the 51 NTC members present. El-Keib, an NTC member representing Tripoli, has been a member of the Libyan opposition.

via LegitGov

[Bill Kelly]

As for Doyle's references to US and Israel, all I can say is that their democracies represent the will of the majority of their citizens, even if they take criminal action, though countries and nations cannot be brought to justice for criminal actions, only individuals can.

BK
Revolutionary Program

Forgive me if there's something that strikes me as less than genuine about that statement. Pretending to criticize a rogue government while savoring its kills doesn't strike me as genuine. In America you don't have the option of standing outside and criticizing the government and its actions. Once you do so you are only accentuating the problem. By the way, that statement that our democracy represents the will of the majority is provably false.

The whole idea of our Constitution is that governments CAN be brought to account for their actions. The fact Mr Kelly doesn't seem to understand that represents the source of our disagreement and why he is able to make those lacking arguments so easily. He forgets to mention that no individuals are being brought to account exactly because that government is operating in contempt of what it says it represents. They did with Kennedy too. Both of them as a matter of fact.

Thanks for your information...

Albert, What is it I don't understand again?

That governments CAN be brought to account for their actions?

I said that governments can not be brought to justice in court, only individuals can.

Those who rant and rave against NATO action in Libya fail to recognize that they acted at the behest of the UN Security Council and the Arab League, as well as the member nations of NATO. You want to hold them accountable for bombing civilians?

Well I don't know of any examples of this although I am sure there are some, though I question those who do this as to where they were when the Gadhafi forces were randomly shelling the citizens of Zawiya and Misratha, killing thousands of people? That's what the UN, AL, USA and NATO were responding to.

The nation of Egypt is not being charged with killing civilians, Mubarak is.

The nation of Syria isn't killing its citizens, Assad is, and he will be held accountable, just as the dictators of Tunisia, Egypt and Libya were.

Please explain to me how a nation or a government can be held accountable and be served with justice so that I better understand.

Thanks,

Bill Kelly
Revolutionary Program

[Keith Millea]

Glen Greenwald explains the ongoing situation pretty well.Of course,the ultimate goal is Iran with a stopover in Syria first.There will be NO freedom in our client states...because we love Democracy so much.Yes,I use WE Bill,because it's all done in yours and my name.We may not like to admit it,but that's the way it is.......

Monday, Oct 31, 2011 4:56 AM 08:15:00 PDT Middle East propaganda 101

Secretary Clinton explains that the U.S. must increase its presence in the region to prevent "outside interference"

By Glenn Greenwald

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton shakes hands with Bahrain's Foreign Minister Shaikh Khalid bin Ahmed al-Khalifa after delivering a statement, Wednesday, Oct. 26, 2011, at the State Department in Washington. (Credit: AP Photo/Haraz N. Ghanbari)




(updated below [Tues.])
When it comes to American propaganda about the Middle East, this New York Times article detailing U.S. plans to bolster its influence in the region after it "withdraws" from Iraq is a masterpiece. Here's the crux of the new American strategy and its ostensible rationale:

With an eye on the threat of a belligerent Iran, the administration is also seeking to expand military ties with the six nations in the Gulf Cooperation Council Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates and Oman. While the United States has close bilateral military relationships with each, the administration and the military are trying to foster a new "security architecture" for the Persian Gulf that would integrate air and naval patrols and missile defense.

The U.S. has Iran completely encircled. It has over 100,000 troops in the nation on Iran's eastern border (Afghanistan, where, just incidentally, the U.S. continued through this year to turn over detainees to a prison notorious for torture) and has occupied the nation on Iran's western border (Iraq) for eight years, and will continue to maintain a "small army" of private contractors and CIA officials after it "withdraws." The U.S. continuously flies drone aircraft over and drops bombs on the nation on Iran's southeastern border (Pakistan). Its NATO ally (Turkey) is situated on Iran's northwestern border. The U.S. has troops stationed in multiple countries just a few hundred miles across the Persian Gulf from Iran, virtually all of which are client states. The U.S. has its Fifth Fleet stationed in a country less than 500 miles from Iran (Bahrain) containing "US warships and contingents of U.S. Marines." And the U.S. routinely arms Iran's two most virulent rivals (Israel and Saudi Arabia) with sophisticated weaponry.

But, New York Times readers were told today, the U.S. must increase its military presence still further in that region because . . . it is Iran (which has no military bases in countries bordering the U.S. or fleets stationed off its coast) that is "belligerent" and poses a "threat" (after all, they just dispatched a failed Texan used car salesman who constantly loses his own keys and can't pay his bills to hire teams of Mexican drug cartel gunmen to attack a Saudi ambassador on American soil!).

But the best proclamation in this article comes from the Secretary of State in explaining why this increased American presence is so very needed and so very noble:

"We will have a robust continuing presence throughout the region, which is proof of our ongoing commitment to Iraq and to the future of that region, which holds such promise and should be freed from outside interference to continue on a pathway to democracy," Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said in Tajikistan after the president's announcement.

The U.S. will remain in that region to protect and defend the region's "pathway to democracy" something it will achieve by further strengthening its "cooperative military relationships" with the tyrannical regimes in Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Oman (White House, October 12: "the President and the King reaffirmed the strong partnership between the United States and Saudi Arabia"). But, explained Secretary Clinton, the ultimate U.S. goal in increasing its military presence in the region is to prevent "outside interference" in the region just as U.S. officials spent the last decade decrying "outside interference" in Iraq and Afghanistan while simultaneously invading and occupying those nations. The only conceivable assumption which can produce this sort of pronouncement is that this region is the property of the U.S., and when it increases its military presence there, that is akin to an owner fencing in his yard to prevent trespassing.

That belief and only it is why American officials can announce with a straight face: we're interfering further in this region in order to prevent "outside interference" in this region (from nations that are actually in that region). I don't expect Hillary Clinton to point any of that out, but perhaps the New York Times might, rather than just publishing these laughable official decrees without comment.

http://politics.salon.com/2011/10/31/mid...singleton/

[Magda Hassan]

Terror and Revenge Engulfs NATO's Libya

by Franklin Lamb

November 12, 2011

The "new Libya" has entered its own "Terror" which is spreading inexorably, aided by NATO member states including American, French and British SAS units known locally as "disappearance squads". This is one of the rapidly developing consequences of the UN's rush to "protect Libya's civilian population" last spring.And it is why human rights investigators are arriving in Benghazi, Libya this week.Rebel forces executed 53 Gadhafi loyalists in Sirte in October 2011 (Photo: Human Rights Watch)

"Approximately 1,085.92082238 kilometers or roughly 600 miles from Cairo to Benghazi" is what the lovely travel agent who works a couple of doors down from the Swedish Café off Tahir Sq reported as she smiled and wanted this observer to take a fancy high rise double decker luxury bus to Benghazi where I was headed from Cairo. In the end I settled for sharing a dump truck at one-third the cost across the Egyptian and Libyan desert to the Courthouse in Benghazi. It didn't seem such a bad idea following meetings in nearby countries, especially considering alternative routes which would have involved flying to Tunis, then another flight to Jerba and then the six hours jammed service ride to Tripoli. I had been there and done that more than once and needed to leave right away to meet some people who were being held in one of Benghazi's teeming jails.Until the NTC announced changes yesterday, anyone bearing an American passport did not need a visa to enter Libya, so grateful has been the NTC for all the financial help that American taxpayers, largely unknowingly, have supplied to NTC officials in addition to presenting them with a country with vast oil reserves and zero national debt.One of the fortunate language usages in this part of the world is the liberal transliteration tolerances applied to Arabic which helps those challenged by the language. As is widely known there are many ways to write Arabic words in roman characters and most are accepted. But one has to listen carefully in Libya these days to grasp the important distinction between certain English words when referring to the fate of increasing numbers of supporters of the Gadhafi regime. In the current atmosphere one often hears that someone "has disappeared"which, depending on one's political views is usually good news and it means the person is in hiding or left the area or fled the country to safety. Alternatively, it might be said that a person "is disappeared" meaning that she or he was caught by the new regime and is gone, probably, forever without a trace for loved ones to pursue.Following meetings with Libyan evacuees (disappeared) from NATO's nine months of bombing who are now present in nearby countries and from meetings inside Libya with incarcerated former officials and some of their family members as well as fugitive opponents of the new "government" it is clear that the current period is cascading into paroxysmal revenge attacks and political cleansing.Those increasingly being targeted by "disappearance squads" are family members and associates, even former domestic employees such as gardeners, handymen, and household staff of former regime affiliates. Homes, cars, furniture, of former regime affiliates are being systematically confiscated. Torture has become the normal means to elicit information regarding the whereabouts of individuals thought to still be supporting the former regime. The reason, according to one former Libyan official who barely escaped one of the French squads and who now resides in Egypt, "is the same reason drones are so popular with your US military, torture works. Not 100% but it's better than the other options."There appears to be a tell-tale paranoia settling in among some NTC elements who believe that if there is one Gadhafi supporter left in Libya it might mean the return of his ideas for Libya's role vis-a-vis the West and its re-colonization of Africa plans, control of Libya's natural resources and its relations with the rapidly changing Middle East.Even Libya's NATO-managed NTC members are worried that they may be investigated by the International Criminal Court after its prosecutor said allegations of crimes committed by NATO in Libya would be examined "impartially and independently." Some western lawyers currently in Libya who are here to help victims of NATO crimes are oddly being approached by members of the new regime for discussions relating to the possibility that the ICC may come after them. This is also one of the reasons why rumors that Saif al Islam is about to surrender to the ICC are false. Saif is being advised to wait and rest because the ICC case will collapse as more facts of NATO crimes surface. Former Libyan officials in hiding are also well advised to stay safe if possible as time may be on their side.Government officials of countries bordering Libya are being advised to allow sanctuary for supporters of the former Libyan government and to refuse extradition requests because activity currently taking place in The Hague may well pre-empt a war crimes investigation.Tunisia is today under great pressure from NATO not to change its mind and not to decline the NTC extradition request for Libya's former Prime Minister Baghdadi al-Mahmoudi. NATO is concerned because American lawyers recommended last month that Baghdadi apply for U.N. political refugee status with the UN High Commissioner for Refugees to try to prevent his extradition from Tunisia. On 11/11/11, the UN acknowledged receipt of Dr. Baghdadi's petition and informed intermediaries that it is being seriously considered. UNHCR has a good record in similar cases but needs to pressure Lebanon with respect its outrageous treatment of a quarter million Palestinian refugees, now suffering debasement for over 63 years.Other reasons the NTC and NATO are concerned is that there is currently being undertaken in the Hague an encompassing internal legal review of all incidents in which NATO bombing or other NATO or NTC actions caused civilian casualties. An American led team is nearing completion of its six month investigation which is expected to be forwarded to the ICC and made public soonA main reason former interim Prime Minister Mahmoud Jibril resigned recently, and others will, is the pressure he has been under from Islamists and many others who remember his record as the former regime's Minister of Justice and Jibril's concern that he may be investigated himself by the ICC for many decisions he has made over the past eight months that are now coming to light. Following his statement about how Muammalr Gadhafi was killed after he was taken into custody alive, which constituted a clear war crime, Jibril is now claiming that it was not him who gave the order to assassinate Gadhafi or even Jibril's former friend, General Younnis, but rather as he explained at a news conference yesterday, amid snickers from assembled journalists, that "a third party maybe a State, or a President or leader in any way who wanted Gadhafi killed, so as not to reveal the many secrets that only Gadhafi could have known." Jibril did not have to mention that Gadhafi knew many secrets about himself and other NTC officials and he is not alone among NATO and NTC officials in fearing an ICC investigation.It is this atmosphere that is significantly fueling the terror across Libya.
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2011...tos-libya/

[Magda Hassan]

[Bill Kelly]

Terror and Revenge Engulfs NATO's Libya

by Franklin Lamb

BK Notes: Hi Mag, Franklin Lamb isn't exactly an unbiased observer, but was pals with many Gadhafi loyalists before the revolution, which he readily acknowledges in his articles, some of which I have posted at my blog in which he sits down around a campfire on the beach in Sirte and talks with some revolutionary fighters. Revolutionary Program: Moon Over Misrata and Sirite It reminds me of a similar campfire video from the mountains where many of those exiled from the Gadhafi counter-attacks had taken refuge in late February and sang about the cities they were going to liberate, and did. During the battle of Tripoli, which only lasted a few days, Lamb was shot in the leg by a pro-Gadhafi sniper perched in the new Tripoli Marriott hotel.

November 12, 2011

The "new Libya" has entered its own "Terror" which is spreading inexorably, aided by NATO member states including American, French and British SAS units known locally as "disappearance squads".

BK: There certainly are "disappearance squads" in Libya, just as there were before the revolution, but nobody reported on the thousands of people who disappeared under Gadhafi's reign, and it is not true that these squads are being aided by NATO states. A British reporter who was held prisoner in Tripoli, once released, went looking for and found the men who had been his guards and had tortured others - and they had tea at the seaside villa of the former guard, who said some of his co-workers had disappeared, not surprisingly, probably by their former captors.
Revolutionary Program: Reporter Tracks down Tripoli Jailer

This is one of the rapidly developing consequences of the UN's rush to "protect Libya's civilian population" last spring.And it is why human rights investigators are arriving in Benghazi, Libya this week.Rebel forces executed 53 Gadhafi loyalists in Sirte in October 2011 (Photo: Human Rights Watch)

"Approximately 1,085.92082238 kilometers or roughly 600 miles from Cairo to Benghazi" is what the lovely travel agent who works a couple of doors down from the Swedish Café off Tahir Sq reported as she smiled and wanted this observer to take a fancy high rise double decker luxury bus to Benghazi where I was headed from Cairo. In the end I settled for sharing a dump truck at one-third the cost across the Egyptian and Libyan desert to the Courthouse in Benghazi. It didn't seem such a bad idea following meetings in nearby countries, especially considering alternative routes which would have involved flying to Tunis, then another flight to Jerba and then the six hours jammed service ride to Tripoli. I had been there and done that more than once and needed to leave right away to meet some people who were being held in one of Benghazi's teeming jails.Until the NTC announced changes yesterday, anyone bearing an American passport did not need a visa to enter Libya, so grateful has been the NTC for all the financial help that American taxpayers, largely unknowingly, have supplied to NTC officials in addition to presenting them with a country with vast oil reserves and zero national debt.One of the fortunate language usages in this part of the world is the liberal transliteration tolerances applied to Arabic which helps those challenged by the language. As is widely known there are many ways to write Arabic words in roman characters and most are accepted. But one has to listen carefully in Libya these days to grasp the important distinction between certain English words when referring to the fate of increasing numbers of supporters of the Gadhafi regime. In the current atmosphere one often hears that someone "has disappeared"which, depending on one's political views is usually good news and it means the person is in hiding or left the area or fled the country to safety. Alternatively, it might be said that a person "is disappeared" meaning that she or he was caught by the new regime and is gone, probably, forever without a trace for loved ones to pursue.Following meetings with Libyan evacuees (disappeared) from NATO's nine months of bombing who are now present in nearby countries and from meetings inside Libya with incarcerated former officials and some of their family members as well as fugitive opponents of the new "government" it is clear that the current period is cascading into paroxysmal revenge attacks and political cleansing.Those increasingly being targeted by "disappearance squads" are family members and associates, even former domestic employees such as gardeners, handymen, and household staff of former regime affiliates. Homes, cars, furniture, of former regime affiliates are being systematically confiscated. Torture has become the normal means to elicit information regarding the whereabouts of individuals thought to still be supporting the former regime.

BK: Wait a minute, if 90% of the people were Gadhafi supporters before the revolution, then the majority of the people are being disappeared and tortured, clearly untrue. What is true is that many of the Gadhafi security police are being put back to work and they certainly used torture, but where was Lamb when Gadahfi's people were in power and disappearing and torturing people? Quiet and dining with his Gadhafi friends.

The reason, according to one former Libyan official who barely escaped one of the French squads and who now resides in Egypt, "is the same reason drones are so popular with your US military, torture works.

BK: Well, half right. Drones do work, but torture doesn't, unless you are just doing it for self-gratification, as the Gadhafi security people were.

Not 100% but it's better than the other options."There appears to be a tell-tale paranoia settling in among some NTC elements who believe that if there is one Gadhafi supporter left in Libya it might mean the return of his ideas for Libya's role vis-a-vis the West and its re-colonization of Africa plans, control of Libya's natural resources and its relations with the rapidly changing Middle East.

BK: Yes, rapidly changing Middle East and North Africa, where the raging revolutions have taken out four dictators in nine months, and more to come.

Even Libya's NATO-managed NTC members are worried that they may be investigated by the International Criminal Court after its prosecutor said allegations of crimes committed by NATO in Libya would be examined "impartially and independently." Some western lawyers currently in Libya who are here to help victims of NATO crimes are oddly being approached by members of the new regime for discussions relating to the possibility that the ICC may come after them.

BK: That the NTC members are afraid of the ICC is silly, as the ICC and the NTC are unable to get Saif from his captors, who are treating him pretty civilly, BTW.

This is also one of the reasons why rumors that Saif al Islam is about to surrender to the ICC are false. Saif is being advised to wait and rest because the ICC case will collapse as more facts of NATO crimes surface.

BK: Well, we now know that Saif isn't taking Lamb's recommendations and his guide, promised a million Euros, turned him in because he thought he would be killed once they got to their Niger destination, and he was probably right since Saif didn't have any Euros on him, and only one thousand USA dollars in cash. I don't know why, but I'll continue reading this junk.....

Former Libyan officials in hiding are also well advised to stay safe if possible as time may be on their side.Government officials of countries bordering Libya are being advised to allow sanctuary for supporters of the former Libyan government and to refuse extradition requests because activity currently taking place in The Hague may well pre-empt a war crimes investigation.Tunisia is today under great pressure from NATO not to change its mind and not to decline the NTC extradition request for Libya's former Prime Minister Baghdadi al-Mahmoudi. NATO is concerned because American lawyers recommended last month that Baghdadi apply for U.N. political refugee status with the UN High Commissioner for Refugees to try to prevent his extradition from Tunisia. On 11/11/11, the UN acknowledged receipt of Dr. Baghdadi's petition and informed intermediaries that it is being seriously considered. UNHCR has a good record in similar cases but needs to pressure Lebanon with respect its outrageous treatment of a quarter million Palestinian refugees, now suffering debasement for over 63 years.Other reasons the NTC and NATO are concerned is that there is currently being undertaken in the Hague an encompassing internal legal review of all incidents in which NATO bombing or other NATO or NTC actions caused civilian casualties. An American led team is nearing completion of its six month investigation which is expected to be forwarded to the ICC and made public soon A main reason former interim Prime Minister Mahmoud Jibril resigned recently, and others will, is the pressure he has been under from Islamists and many others who remember his record as the former regime's Minister of Justice and Jibril's concern that he may be investigated himself by the ICC for many decisions he has made over the past eight months that are now coming to light. Following his statement about how Muammalr Gadhafi was killed after he was taken into custody alive, which constituted a clear war crime, Jibril is now claiming that it was not him who gave the order to assassinate Gadhafi or even Jibril's former friend, General Younnis, but rather as he explained at a news conference yesterday, amid snickers from assembled journalists, that "a third party maybe a State, or a President or leader in any way who wanted Gadhafi killed, so as not to reveal the many secrets that only Gadhafi could have known." Jibril did not have to mention that Gadhafi knew many secrets about himself and other NTC officials and he is not alone among NATO and NTC officials in fearing an ICC investigation.It is this atmosphere that is significantly fueling the terror across Libya.

BK: Yes, Jibril was former Justice Minister under Gadhafi, but not when over 1,000 political prisoners were executed in one day, and he was apparently respected enough for his independence to lead the NTC in its formative beginnings. And Yes, Younnis was assassinated by radicals over a personal grudge - he had killed the father of his assassins - and live Gadhafi would have known a lot of the crimes committed by his former henchmen who were now with the rebels - but Gadhafi's assassination was filmed and video taped on multiple cell phone cameras and his assassin is featured on Youtube so we know who he is - at least what he looks like, so that is no mystery. And the ICC should seek justice for those crimes as well as those committed by Gadhafi forces and NATO, but it doesn't look like they will.

http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2011...tos-libya/

Te