Yeah, the minute you replied my email icon in the lower left corner flared up: "David Teacher has replied to the topic" Must say, very handy.
Quote:One note for all concerned: I severely doubt that the Cercle ever produced any written documents - not the way to run a confidential network ; everything Crozier says (and tradecraft demands) would point away from written records. Langemann's retelling of (Hans) von Stauffenberg's verbal reports are the most accurate we have. ... I will check email asap, but am initially suspicious of any written records from the Cercle itself - never seen any before. If needs be, we'll forward them to Crozier for comment with your permission ...
Haha, feel free to be skeptical (you won't be for long) and forward the documents to Crozier. Ask Crozier about a speech I sent you in which he lays out the entire Cercle strategy for southern Africa. He will love that. I even left the French speeches behind... Can't be bothered anymore to translate that. The Atlantic Cercle stuff I posted last year were also Cercle documents - and not very well hidden, at least for people who are searching for it (and their new address is registered at the Balli Group in London... but it's seemingly impossible to get details on directors). Atlantic Cercle even had a website in 2002, probably fearing more incriminating articles tied to Le Cercle would soon follow. They're trying to be secret, but it's tough. Still, no real info anymore in recent years - certainly no details on members. And various members let things slip on a regular basis. In these times with the internet that can be picked up. Not surprising. There's no real penalty on leaking Cercle info. It's non-government. Crozier purged his papers from any Cercle referenes, except for the Pinay Committee, but not all (old) participants were that careful. And Crozier himself, of course, couldn't resist writing about his own "super secret" Cercle. Well, it was "super secret" back then. Guess it still is to some extent. If I didn't publish anything on it, you wouldn't have either, and it was probably still a largely overlooked group.
Good chance Crozier already knows about my documents. The Cercle absolutely refuses to speak to me, with or without lists. Tried Tom Spencer (a friend of Ted Shackley (won't call or email back)), Nadhmi Auchi, the pro-Franco scholar Jaime Pinto in Portugal and Lord Lamont. It was kind of fun to contact Pinto. I asked him if he knew Baron de Bonvoisin was a member: "Yeah, interesting questions, I'll get back to you in two weeks...". Then he broke off contact. A couple of weeks later I found the lists... he and de Bonvoisin going to the same meetings... Too funny asking him follow up questions: "Dear Mr. Pinto, I have this list here in front of me and was wondering..." :coffee: No more replies. So funny. Asked him also about a "Club Vaduz" he and other Cercle members visit... probably not a reference to the soccer club...
Funny you mention I should dump the Synarchism stuff... One of the questions I asked to Pinto is what he meant with the following sentence: "[Jonet, Crozier and I were] still trying to find other synergias, such as "African."" What "synergias" are and if "African" meant the Afrikaners. I see Synarchism as French fascism in the run up to World War II. That's it. Seemed to have existed (not relying on EIR), so I keep a superficial interest in it.
Quote:In any case, the Cercle is far from the central forum (and there is none; it is a network, the Cercle is merely one of the nodes): so not losing ourselves in the details, YES, both you and I aimed right: the "Paneuropean Right" or the "Vatican-Paneuropa" axis is the one to follow (but dump the 'Synarchism' stuff, pardon me). Yes, it had the influence we thought it did. Yes, the only symbol possible to summarize it is Charlemagne's signature: one thousand three hundred years later but still relevant, hence the inclusion on the title page. The only reason I do not rename to your designation "Vatican-Paneuropa" (which has a nice ring to it) is that my "Paneuropean Right" includes other foreign political and intelligence networks (Protestant movements; BND, MI6, BVD) than the straight Opus Dei/Vatican>SDECE/Dubois-Violet axis, of which CIOC is well worth investigating, but this is only one side of the big picture. It also excludes major issues like the UK's accession to the EU, smoothed via CEDI, but beyond Catholic networking.
I do agree and somewhat do not agree with you. Thing is, my online writings are accurate... but ancient. But it takes too long to explain my new model (which works like a charm for a year now). Did that in this topic and trashed it. That's why I deleted everything and just focused on Le Cercle. Not important now.
What is important: tell me when you are convinced of the documents' authenticity. Won't be long. Any minute now...
* "Everything comes when it must come. A life cannot be rushed, cannot be worked on a schedule as so many people want it to be. We must accept what comes to us at a given time, and not ask for more. But life is endless, so we never die; we were never really born. We just pass through different phases. There is no end. Humans have many dimensions. But time is not as we see time, but rather in lessons that are learned."
In brief, as I am pressed for time today, I have now had a look at Joel's Cercle documents and must withdraw my earlier scepticism about the Cercle producing any documents- not only do they offer unique insight into Le Cercle and confirm many of the names I had advanced, but I have also been able to satisfy myself about their source and have no doubt that they are genuine. A real coup, Joel - hats off to you! Your future research will be even more interesting to read!
56 minutes ... Don't use the bow thingy ... you are definitely better at getting the proper documentation. Once wanted you to write for ISGP a quick "how to" of investigative journalism so other people can quickly learn the art (these don't seem to have been written).
Anyway, had the ISGP website updated with two speeches of Brian Crozier and five membership lists. So anyone can use them in their research. What's the point of keeping it back for years to come? Putting together the story behind these names together is the real art.
Funny, the three people who wrote the most about Le Cercle are all affiliated with this thread.
Edit: damn, always spelling errors with the first publication. Well, can't go editing everything now. Thanks for updating the ISGP website, Peter.
* "Everything comes when it must come. A life cannot be rushed, cannot be worked on a schedule as so many people want it to be. We must accept what comes to us at a given time, and not ask for more. But life is endless, so we never die; we were never really born. We just pass through different phases. There is no end. Humans have many dimensions. But time is not as we see time, but rather in lessons that are learned."
Just a quick reply to Joel - I can't really claim the credit for getting all that information, as I did have the advantage of reading all those snippets published (in the print media) by the dozen or so journalists who've dealt with bits of the story. A weaver of tales maybe, but not really a Sherlock Holmes!
Now let's see if any of our readers is interested enough in Joel's and my research to pursue the topic here ...
29-10-2011, 10:37 PM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2011, 11:06 PM by Joel van der Reijden..)
I don't think there's much to say for the average person. Largely seems to be a dead forum - which is fine. What's there to discuss on a day-to-day basis anyway when it comes to this stuff. Google cache is what is important.
So: just sent a final update to the Wikispooks admin for the ISGP website. I just quickly summarized some of the stuff I've been working on. Knowing that stuff is out should keep me quiet at least for another year or so.
The image I can upload here (converted to lower quality jpg... gif didn't work)... The text is too much.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3119[/ATTACH]
"[One of our [comment: young, radical] members of parliament is the only one who] asks congressional questions about the Bilderberg conferences, because members of the government go there - the queen and one or two ministers - and because no report is provided to congress. About the other organizations too little concrete information exists to be used in parliamentary sessions. ... To be honest, little can be said with certainty about the way Bilderberg influences [regular politics]. ... The SP is focused on formal political relations … With your question we enter the extra-parliamentary domain of parapolitics; informal, non-public organizations in which influence-forming is practiced, often by persons in influential government positions and/or from the corporate world who together make political decisions without oversight." - Assistant to a long-sitting socialist member of Dutch parliament. The initial question was about Le Cercle. Members of parliament from the U.S., England, the Netherlands and Belgium refused to reply or denied knowing anything about Le Cercle. This includes a member of England's Cercle-affiliated Intelligence and Security Committee. Cercle members also refuse to comment. (October 2010)
* "Everything comes when it must come. A life cannot be rushed, cannot be worked on a schedule as so many people want it to be. We must accept what comes to us at a given time, and not ask for more. But life is endless, so we never die; we were never really born. We just pass through different phases. There is no end. Humans have many dimensions. But time is not as we see time, but rather in lessons that are learned."
As I somewhat cynically expected, the initial enthusiasm from others about the book on the first page of this thread fizzles out ... no-one except Joel seems to have bothered to read it. Nonetheless, one extra snippet recently gleaned re Jean Violet.
First off, anyone (and I mean anyone) should be interested in the most notorious covert operator for France and for the Vatican from the fifties until the eighties, deeply involved in a multi-million franc swindle (sniffer planes), and yet who has NO wikipedia entry in any language ...
Second up, I wrote in the intro to the third edition: "As for [the death of] Jean Violet, no-one has ever known ..."
The main man in this scandal concerning covert funding of most of the French political parties was Michel Roussin, in charge of security at the Prime Minister's Office Matignon in 1972-74 before notably serving as chef de cabinet to SDECE chief Alexandre de Marenches in 1977-81 and chef de service at the Defence Ministry in 1981, later serving as chef de cabinet under Jacques Chirac at the Paris Town Hall then at Matignon in 1984-88 before becoming directeur de cabinet under Chirac at the Paris Town Hall in 1988-93 and briefly serving as Development and Cooperation Minister from 1993-94.
See Paul Violet talking about (some of) his past history whilst supporting Anne Hidalgo, First Deputy Mayor of Paris (since 2001, under Bertrand Delanoë) and Socialist candidate for Mayor of the the XVth arrondissement of Paris in 2008 here:
Joel van der Reijden. Wrote:Maybe I shouldn't be so harsh and condescending, but unless you agreed with me on Sheehan and distanced yourself from him and some of your own ideas (which you are never-ever going to do).... you were checkmate there. Well, Sheehan's more important so maybe I'll skip you in my future writings.
Let's stick to Le Cercle. New book in this thread... and a couple of new names. Pretty good progress I would say. To make up I added more names to the previous page.
That is quite a nasty comment and self-serving faux ego boost you gave yourself! You expect people to engage you with this kind of vitriol? 'unless you agreed with me'.......and [distance] some of your [my] own ideas. I wish we had 'block' here, as I'd block you. I didn't say Sheehan was a saint or more important than x, y, or z, I simply started to mention I knew him and am probably the only one here who did...but perhaps you don't like first person accounts of people. I think your ego and id need a tune up whoever you think you are. Over and out. You put it pretty well [superego] 'maybe I shouldn't be so condescending.' I'll second that!
I'm too angry to address the main topic, which YOU seem to want to enforce, rather than let people post what they like. Last I checked you were not a moderator. By the way, was I who sent David G. the copy, which he then posted.
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn
"If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and never will" - Frederick Douglass
First off, I'm very glad to see some comments on this thread. As you may have seen from my comment above, it has been disappointing to start a thread about a particular subject involving twenty years of my life researching and producing unique content, for it to be diverted into other subjects not mentioned in the research project.
I state my position so all is clear:
First up, research is about FOCUS - this particular thread is on the Cercle Pinay, Brian Crozier, 6I, Vatican-Paneuropa et al. I welcome further discussion on Daniel Sheehan (of whom I am almost entirely ignorant) in another thread - as I have said before, the more focussed discussion, the better! All of us want more info and more debate; let's just categorize it right. If you have a dispute with Joel about Sheehan, I look forward to reading both of your views in a dedicated thread - not here.
Second up, you were reading the (my, no ego-trip intended) book - so what do you think? On-subject comments and contributions most welcome!
Third up, thank god (whom I don't believe in), blocking debate is not possible because it's always bad news: if you have a view, then fight it. Freedom of speech (just in the right thread)!
That summary describes Sheehan very clearly as an agent of the liberal establishment and an associate/friend of George Shultz, Zbigniew Brzezinski and Henry Kissinger (all three Pilgrims) in particular. He helped them with exposing Iran Contra, with the Disclosure Project and with the U.N./New Age world religion agenda. No need for debate on that. The evidence is right in the above summary.
Also, David, I'll stick to the private conversations. Forums are a really bad way to spread information. Thanks for the update though. Paul is probably the only person I labeled a Cercle member by association. For everyone else I have a source saying they visited Le Cercle at least once. Not that it really matters. I'll believe you in a heartbeat that he knew de Bonvoisin, like his father did.
* "Everything comes when it must come. A life cannot be rushed, cannot be worked on a schedule as so many people want it to be. We must accept what comes to us at a given time, and not ask for more. But life is endless, so we never die; we were never really born. We just pass through different phases. There is no end. Humans have many dimensions. But time is not as we see time, but rather in lessons that are learned."
We've heard from Joel that Sheehan is a key character - in exposing Iran-Contra etc (and just as well, a real nest of vipers), but with doubts attached. Peter, who's met him, has a different opinion - fine, let's hear it in a specific thread. FOCUS! So,please, either one of you, create a specific Sheehan thread, and pursue the debate there - not here! Sheehan has no known connection to our immediate subject: pour memoire: Cercle, Crozier,etc.
Whilst I don't agree with Joel on everything (different perspectives), his research is A1+ - on everything I know about, it's been spot-on. What I don't know about, I don't know about, and so withhold comment here. I look forward to learning more in a specific Sheehan thread.
Discussing details in a forum may well be a waste of time; I always back it up with private communications to serious researchers to make sure the info gets through, but the forum could ensure that all interested see the stuff ... so far, a waste of time but who knows? It puts the info out there ... for everyone to ignore, distort .. or maybe learn from ... DT.
Your future research will be even more interesting to read!