JFK: What we know now that we didn't know then

[Gary Craig]

Well, when you are wrong, you are wrong. And both Adele and Coogan are wrong. LBJ was the guy who pressured JFK to come to Texas. He even told Henry Gonzales that he didn't want to make the trip, but that Lyndon was insisting. Connally was the one who, apparently faking a phone call to the White House, claimed that Kenny O'Donnell had approved the change of venue to the Trade Mart, even though the Secret Service felt it was less secure than The Women's Forum. I think those who want to get this straight ought to do more research, especially LBJ: MASTERMIND OF JFK'S ASSASSINATION.

"Connally was the one who, apparently faking a phone call to the White House, claimed that Kenny O'Donnell had approved the change of venue to the Trade Mart, even though the Secret Service felt it was less secure than The Women's Forum. I think those who want to get this straight ought to do more research, especially LBJ: MASTERMIND OF JFK'S ASSASSINATION."

Hmmmmmmmm

"Friday, 15 c. November 1963
A change in the route of Kennedy's Dallas motorcade is made by a person or persons unknown.

What was announced on this date was not a change in the motorcade route, but the site selected for the luncheon. There had been a feud
over which site to use, and selection of the Trade Mart was made by White House aide Ken O'Donnell, in consultation with Bill Moyers,
and was due to "unbearable" pressure from Connally to have the luncheon at the Trade Mart instead of the Women's Building.
Dallas SS agent in charge Forrest Sorrels then selected the Elm Street route as the "most direct" route to the Trade Mart, considering
the presence of a raised divider which would have to be driven over if Main Street were used to reach the expressway. Continuing down
Main to Industrial Boulevard was rejected, in consultation with Asst. Police Chief George Lumpkin, because of the undesirable neighborhood."

From HSCA v. 11:

(Advance man) Bruno's explanation of how the matter was finally resolved is found in his journal in the entries of November 14 and 15, 1963:
November 14-- The feud became so bitter that I went to the White House to ask Bill Moyers, then Deputy Director of the Peace Corps, and close
to both Connally and Johnson, if he would try to settle the dispute for the good of the President and his party. On this day, Kenney O'Donnell
decided that there was no other way but to go to the mart. November 15--The White House announced that the Trade Mart had been approved. I met
with O'Donnell and Moyers who said that Connally was unbearable and on the verge of cancelling the trip. They decided they had to let the
Governor have his way. (149) . . .

As the Dallas SAIC, Forrest Sorrels told the Warren Commission, he selected the Main-Houston-Elm turn through Dealey Plaza because it was
the "most direct" route to the Trade Mart. (189) Sorrels' questioning by Warren Commission staff counsel Samuel M. Stern, however, prevented
a total picture of motorcade route logistics from emerging. Stern asked Sorrels why the expressway was proached from the Elm Street ramp
instead of from Main Street just beyond the triple overpass at the westen boundary of Dealey Plaza. Sorrels explained that the size and
cumbersomeness of the motorcade, along with the presence of a raised divider separating the Elm Street lane from the Elm Street lane at
the foot of the ramp up to the expressway, deterred him from trying to route the motorcade under and through the overpass on Main Street.
Such a route would have assigned the drivers in the motorcade the almost impossible task of making a reverse S-turn in order to cross over
the raised divider to get from the Main Street lane into the Elm Street lane. (190) However, this question-and-answer process failed to make
clear that the Trade Mart was accessible from beyond the triple overpass in such a way that it was not necessary to enter the Elm Street ramp
to the expressway. The motorcade could have progressed westward through Dealey Plaza on Main Street, passed under the overpass, and then
proceeded on Industrial Boulevard to the Trade Mart. (191)
George L. Lumpkin, assistant police chief in Dallas in 1963, was consulted by the Secret Service about the motorcade aspect of security
planning. (192) Lumpkin explained that the alternate route, continuing straight on Main through and beyond Dealey Plaza and thereby reaching
the Trade Mart on Industrial Boulevard, was rejected because the neighborhood surrounding Industrial Boulevard was "filled with winos and
broken pavement." (193) Additionally, Lumpkin stated that Kennedy wanted exposure and that there would have been no crowds on Industrial Boulevard.
(194)
Advance Agent Lawson informed committee investigators that he had nothing to do with the selection of the Main-Houston-Elm turn before November
14, since only Main Street, not Dealey Plaza, had been selected for the motorcade at that time. He did not specify the exact date on which the
turn was selected nor did he identify the person selecting the turn.(195) Sorrels stated that he and Lawson did drive the entire route together,
but did not specify when this occurred. (196)
Sorrels' Warren Commission exhibit No. 4 suggested that both men drove the entire route on November 18. (197) It is not certain that both
men knew about the turn earlier than this date.

[Seamus Coogan]

Well, when you are wrong, you are wrong. And both Adele and Coogan are wrong. LBJ was the guy who pressured JFK to come to Texas. He even told Henry Gonzales that he didn't want to make the trip, but that Lyndon was insisting. Connally was the one who, apparently faking a phone call to the White House, claimed that Kenny O'Donnell had approved the change of venue to the Trade Mart, even though the Secret Service felt it was less secure than The Women's Forum. I think those who want to get this straight ought to do more research, especially LBJ: MASTERMIND OF JFK'S ASSASSINATION.

To All,

From my reading of two books, and from a posting I believe I made on this forum, if not on another forum some years ago, Lyndon Johnson and his staff tried to keep Kennedy from visiting Dallas during this swing through Texas. I recommend these readings, if you have not already done so.

THE 31st OF MARCH by Horace Busby, speechwriter and confidant of LBJ's. The title refers to the date, March 31, 1968, when Lyndon Johnson announced that he would not be seeking the presidency in November, 1968. Perhaps even more significant is Busby's description of a speech he wrote for LBJ in 1967 that was to be delivered at the end of Johnson's 1967 State of the Union speech to make the same declaration, but which he did not deliver even though it was in his pocket when he spoke.

JOHNNY, WE HARDLY KNEW YE by Kenneth O'Donnell and David Powers. Both authors were very close to John Kennedy.

Both books cite Lyndon Johnson urging Kennedy and his staff and planners to skip the Dallas visit, because the city did not carry the Kennedy-Johnson ticket in the 1960 election, and because Lyndon and Ladybird Johnson were ill-treated when campaigning in Dallas in 1960. They were hit by agitators' signs and spit upon in the lobby of the Adolphus Hotel as they walked through it.

Adele Edisen

There are other sources as well such as Vince Palamara and William Manchester. John Connally was also deeply opposed and funnily enough worried about the security of the Trademart.

Adele sorry I was away I'll try and reference the sources for you. I am busy but the preceeding thread has some interesting stuff and I am sure PD will br able to cook you up some good sources. Further that, my apologies. I see now you are a genuine student of the case. Since I don't have my copy of Nelsons slur on the senses anymore. I'd be fascinated to see whom Nelson is actually sourcing for this garbage. I'd also appreiciate a reply to my comments about his John Hankey collaboration. I'd like to know why he felt the need to gratuitously take my comments out of context as an indication of '3' things I got wrong. Not to mention his comments about my taking Nixon at face value then deleting whole paragraphs that I wrote on the subject at hand.

[Adele Edisen]

Well, when you are wrong, you are wrong. And both Adele and Coogan are wrong. LBJ was the guy who pressured JFK to come to Texas. He even told Henry Gonzales that he didn't want to make the trip, but that Lyndon was insisting. Connally was the one who, apparently faking a phone call to the White House, claimed that Kenny O'Donnell had approved the change of venue to the Trade Mart, even though the Secret Service felt it was less secure than The Women's Forum. I think those who want to get this straight ought to do more research, especially LBJ: MASTERMIND OF JFK'S ASSASSINATION.

To All,

From my reading of two books, and from a posting I believe I made on this forum, if not on another forum some years ago, Lyndon Johnson and his staff tried to keep Kennedy from visiting Dallas during this swing through Texas. I recommend these readings, if you have not already done so.

THE 31st OF MARCH by Horace Busby, speechwriter and confidant of LBJ's. The title refers to the date, March 31, 1968, when Lyndon Johnson announced that he would not be seeking the presidency in November, 1968. Perhaps even more significant is Busby's description of a speech he wrote for LBJ in 1967 that was to be delivered at the end of Johnson's 1967 State of the Union speech to make the same declaration, but which he did not deliver even though it was in his pocket when he spoke.

JOHNNY, WE HARDLY KNEW YE by Kenneth O'Donnell and David Powers. Both authors were very close to John Kennedy.

Both books cite Lyndon Johnson urging Kennedy and his staff and planners to skip the Dallas visit, because the city did not carry the Kennedy-Johnson ticket in the 1960 election, and because Lyndon and Ladybird Johnson were ill-treated when campaigning in Dallas in 1960. They were hit by agitators' signs and spit upon in the lobby of the Adolphus Hotel as they walked through it.

Adele Edisen

There are other sources as well such as Vince Palamara and William Manchester. John Connally was also deeply opposed and funnily enough worried about the security of the Trademart.

Adele sorry I was away I'll try and reference the sources for you. I am busy but the preceeding thread has some interesting stuff and I am sure PD will br able to cook you up some good sources. Further that, my apologies. I see now you are a genuine student of the case. Since I don't have my copy of Nelsons slur on the senses anymore. I'd be fascinated to see whom Nelson is actually sourcing for this garbage. I'd also appreiciate a reply to my comments about his John Hankey collaboration. I'd like to know why he felt the need to gratuitously take my comments out of context as an indication of '3' things I got wrong. Not to mention his comments about my taking Nixon at face value then deleting whole paragraphs that I wrote on the subject at hand.

Seamus, Hi,

I didn't mean to make work for you. I thought you might have had the references handy. I have Manchesteer's book somewhere and could look it up there, if that's where his reference would be. It was so long ago that I read his book, so I don't recall what he wrote about LBJ. It is good to know there are more references because Johnson is a very unlikely candidate to be a conspirator or head of a conspiracy to assassinate John Kennedy.

He was able to put Kennedy's ideas, and his own (and the Democratic Party's platform), into effect. The Civil Rights Act of 1964, for example. Johnson had fought hard for civil rights in the 1957 and 1960 Acts on Civil Rights in the US Senate. And the Voting Rights Act of 1965, insuring voting rights for all by removing poll taxes and reading tests for voters in the South, and other restrictions elsewhere. Our current Justice Deparment has just initiated enforcement of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 because of some new state laws blocking voting by minorities, elderly people, and others, especially those who might vote for the Democratic Party candidates in local, state, and federal elections.

I will look for the John Hankey material you mentioned, and read it. You said Nelson wrote it? I've been away from the internet and this forum, for awhile, so I have some catching up to do. Maybe you could point me in the right direction?

Adele Edisen

[Seamus Coogan]

Jim Di and I worked on this brief piece in Jims Doug Horne review Vol 4-5. http://www.ctka.net/reviews/horn_jd_pt4-5.html

"But Horne sees it as otherwise. And he uses John Connally's article in Life magazine of 11/24/67 to indict the governor. He goes after Connally for saying that he was not all that eager for Kennedy to go to Texas. (p. 1386) Which considering the fact he was much more moderate than Kennedy, and the ugly incident that had just occurred with Adlai Stevenson being spat upon, is kind of understandable. Horne counters this with a quote from Evelyn Lincoln's book, Kennedy and Johnson, in which she writes that Kennedy told her that Connally seemed anxious for JFK to go. (ibid) But Horne does not supply the timeline for this quote. The reality as pointed out in our Hanks expose' is that Connally (who had become the point man with the White House on the excursion). (ibid, p. 1387) was reluctant at first, but once persuaded, was eager to get it over and done with as quickly as possible (Jim Reston, The Lone Star: The Life of John Connally pgs. 240-260) Connally and LBJ are not enough for Horne. He entitles one sub-chapter, "The Crucial role of Congressman Al Thomas in Luring JFK to Texas and Why It Matters." Let's be upfront about this: In Best Evidence, Lifton shows pictures of Thomas looking at Johnson after he was sworn in on Air Force One.

Thomas appears to wink at LBJ after he has taken the oath. Consequently, this means he is part of the plot. Question: What if he had just shook hands with Johnson? What would that have meant to Horne and Lifton? More or less? In talks with Jim Marrs, he has told me that it is not necessarily true that the choice of the Trade Mart necessitated the dogleg turns in Dealey Plaza. He has told me that all that was necessary was to place a relatively short wood platform on the road and the motorcade could have accessed the freeway from Main Street. (Horne, p. 1397) Connally opposed a parade route. The parade route was specifically organised by Secret Service men Winston Lawson and Forrest Sorrels, who overrode the Dallas authorities they were supposed to plan it with. Horne also makes much of the insistence by Connally of having the luncheon at the Trade Mart instead of the Women's Center. Yes, the latter could accommodate more people, but Connally's image as a business-oriented Democrat could be said it was more in keeping with the Trade Mart, Connally loudly voiced security concerns about the final venue's size, referring to the Trade Mart's balcony and 53 entrances. He was also uninformed of the actual parade route (WCR pgs 27-30; Vince Palamara: Survivors Guilt pgs 2-9)."

There's also another excerpt here from my work on John Hankey http://www.ctka.net/2010/hanky.html

"47:24 Hankey tells us that it was Connally "Who held Kennedy's hand and pretended nothing was going on as he led him into the killing zone." The inference here is that Kennedy was lured to Dallas by Connally and the conspirators. But that's not true. Kennedy's trip to Dallas was discussed with Johnson and Connally in June and formal planning began in September of 1963. It happened for a variety of reasons. Two of them were to raise funds for the upcoming election in 1964, and to heal the rift between between Connally and Yarbrough (WCR pg. 27) It's a little known fact that Connally, who encouraged Jackie to come along, was not keen on the idea of the president coming to Dallas. Why? Because Kennedy divided Connally's centrist conservative constituency which represented the accumulated wealth of Texas. Thus rather than enthusiastically organise rallies and functions, Connally dithered and seems to have done all he could to get the trip over and done with as quickly as possible. (Jim Reston, The Lone Star: The Life of John Connally pgs. 240-260) Connally opposed a parade route. The parade route was specifically organised by Secret Service men Winston Lawson and Forrest Sorrels, who overrode the Dallas authorities they were supposed to plan it with. Connally loudly voiced security concerns about the final venue's size, referring to the Trade Mart's balcony and 53 entrances. He was also uninformed of the actual parade route (WCR pgs 27-30; Vince Palamara: Survivors Guilt pgs 2-9) Is Hankey implying what I think he's implying here? That Connally was willing to place himself and his wife in harm's way and almost have himself killed, just so he could lie about the direction of the shots? When in fact there was confusd testimony about this anyway?
Why risk one's life over something like that?"

I hope this is helpful to you. Indeed to help you out is a pleasure. I just read your write up at Spartacus and your accquainted with my mates Bill Kelly and Bill Davy. That's wicked. My apologies once again it's really awesome to have you here on DPF.

[Albert Doyle]

Johnson is a very unlikely candidate to be a conspirator or head of a conspiracy to assassinate John Kennedy.

Even though I'm admittedly a lesser-studied student of the Assassination I'd have to strongly agree with the latter but respectfully disagree with the former. The wink of an eye can say a lot.

[Dawn Meredith]

Jim: I have read all the books you referenced but for the most recent, the "Mastermind" book. LBJ was-in my opinion- a dirty rotten killer and there is no doubt in my mind that Mac Wallace killed several for LBJ. Henry Marshall, Clint Peoples-inter alia- were heros who tried to expose just how evil LBJ was, and were murdered for their efforts.

I have a question for you: Did LBJ also "mastermind" the assassinations of Dr. King? Presidential candidate Senator Robert Kennedy?

The day it happened I thought it was LBJ. I was fourteen. Then at twenty three I began to research this case and deep politics in general.

CD and the others are not saying LBJ was not involved. They are stating the obvious: He was not the mastermind. I find it troubling that you think that a Presidental puppet has this level of power. Didn't the assassination itself prove the very opposite to you?

To even argue this is a serious waste of time. "Why he Died and Why It Matters" IS the point.

Dawn

[Seamus Coogan]

Johnson is a very unlikely candidate to be a conspirator or head of a conspiracy to assassinate John Kennedy.

Even though I'm admittedly a lesser-studied student of the Assassination I'd have to strongly agree with the latter but respectfully disagree with the former. The wink of an eye can say a lot.

Mate I don't think Adele fully believes that now unless I am much mistaken.

[Seamus Coogan]

"Why he Died and Why It Matters" that indeed is the real question it's also a book
JF has misappropriated alongside Phil Nelson's work. It's crazy.

[Adele Edisen]

Johnson is a very unlikely candidate to be a conspirator or head of a conspiracy to assassinate John Kennedy.

Even though I'm admittedly a lesser-studied student of the Assassination I'd have to strongly agree with the latter but respectfully disagree with the former. The wink of an eye can say a lot.

Mate I don't think Adele fully believes that now unless I am much mistaken.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Seamus and Al,

Please give me a clue. What are you two talking about?.

My belief is that I never considered Lyndon Johnson as an enemy of John Kennedy. The wink by Thomas was probably to say, "I'll help you in your presidency. I'm with you." Something one Democrat would say to another. Let's not make more of it than it is.

There is another photograph of Lyndon Johnson taken on the morning of Friday, Nov. 22, 1963, while President John Kennedy was addressing the crowd outside of the Hotel Texas in Fort Worth, before the flight to Dallas. Vice-President Lyndon Johnson is standing behind Kennedy and he looks worried. Some people apparently thnk he looks angry, but I don't. LBJ was not angry; he was worried about the trip to Dallas, which he feared would produce some kind of embarassmemt to the presidential party as they would drive through the streets of Dallas, stronghold of the John Birch Society, Minutemen and Minutewomen, and other nutty right-wing extremists. Even Kennedy knew this, for he had said to Jackie that morning, "We're in nut country now."

It bothers me that many people have not sought to find and identify the real enemies of John Kennedy, nor have they sought to understand the historic precedents, the sociological and economic factors which brought about the assassination. There are many clues about if only one looks for them and follows them through. .I have urged people to study the attempted coup against President Roosevelt in 1933-34. The same elements that were in play then were instrumental in November, 1963, just thirty years later. Until this is understood, the Kennedy assassination, and those of Martin Luther King, Jr., Robert Kennedy, Malcolm X, will not be explained or solved. Examine what links all of those murders together. That would be a beginning. What threats did those four individuals present and to whom were they a threat? This is my view.

Adele Edisen

[Adele Edisen]

Seamus,

I'll get back to you on this.
I didn't want to copy all that reading material.

Adele

Hey Adele

Jim Di and I worked on this brief piece in Jims Doug Horne review Vol 4-5. http://www.ctka.net/reviews/horn_jd_pt4-5.html