The Paines and the Minox Camera Charade

[Albert Doyle]

Deborra,

It is unclear if this is the actual picture from Curry's book in the link:



https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site...59KIaKM%3A

[David Josephs]

I have Curry's book. I'll look at page 113.

I'd love to see page 113, not being able to afford $40 to purchase the collector's "paperback," and I doubt I can even view a copy via inter-library loan because it is a collector's item. Is it possible to scan the page giving full credit to the author, or does that still violate copyright laws? Did I mention I am a complete novice about this stuff. Please forgive my naïveté if possible.

Here you go Deborra... p113 If we are referring to that little black case with the top popped open I don't think that's it and here's why

... the image here is cropped. http://jfkassassination.net/russ/inventory4.gif is the full image with what looks like an empty Minox case.


Sorry - but I don't see an image of the Minox camera like the color image I posted above

DJ

[Albert Doyle]

In this article Steve Margolis says the camera is visible in Curry's photo (I don't know what he's looking at):



http://stevemargolis.com/blog/2012/11/25...63-part-2/

[Deborra Ann Low]

Here you go Deborra... p113 If we are referring to that little black case with the top popped open I don't think that's it and here's why... the image here is cropped. http://jfkassassination.net/russ/inventory4.gif is the full image with what looks like an empty Minox case. Sorry - but I don't see an image of the Minox camera like the color image I posted above

DJ

The case with the top popped open appears to be the small leather case for the missing Minox camera, and this photo was allegedly taken by the DPD on 11/22/63. This makes one wonder if the DPD ever really had the Minox subminiature camera to begin with, unless it was removed from the case prior to the photo being taken, perhaps to retrieve the film inside and to see if the camera was operable?? The Minox camera obtained from Michael Paine (much later), reportedly from the coffee can in his garage, was inoperable and was sealed shut (but apparently not at the time it was offered up as evidence by Michael Paine), so Michael Paine's Minox obviously couldn't have been the same camera the DPD removed from the Paine residence on 11/22/63 (allegedly taken from Oswald's seabag). With the serial number being located on the inside of these cameras, the FBI could not obtain a serial number from a camera they couldn't open, right? Plus, it's one thing to be mistaken about whether an empty case has or had a camera in it, or whether a light meter is really a camera, but the S/N of the camera is a problem as well, because it falls out of the range of possible serial numbers for a Minox, Model A, III, and fits only within the range of serial numbers for Minox, Model A, II camera. It's very odd for both Oswald and Michael Paine to both own subminiature Minox cameras (known to be used for espionage) unless they were both operatives, especially when these miniature Minox cameras were not like "Kodak Instamatics" and not commonly owned by the average "Joe" in 1963. Apparently some researcher (I don't know who???), has discovered that the serial number "27259" reported as being obtained from Michael Paine's Minox (before it was apparently sealed), fell within the range of cameras not sold to the general public but only to intelligence agencies. Does anyone have a verified reference for both the serial numbers of the Minox cameras that were not available for sale to the general public but only to intelligence agencies (FBI, CIA, etc.) and a verified reference for the Minox, Model A, III being sealed shut? I know John Armstrong has claimed that the Minox III camera was sealed closed, but what is the documented source for that claim? Thanks in advance for any help provided on this.

[Deborra Ann Low]

Here you go Deborra... p113

Thank you. I have seen this same photo on another website, the link I posted earlier, but I didn't know this was the same photo shown on p113 of Curry's book.

Much obliged!

Deborra

[Deborra Ann Low]

The mentioning of the Minox as found at the Paines is spread out over a number of documents the FBI could not get the DPD to change, nor it seems did they even know these other pages existed.

Armstrong says the Minox at the Archives was sealed shut with what he said felt like it was filled with cement.

Notice please the 5-digit serial number of the Minox returned from Dallas field office to FBO HQ in the 2/2/64 Airtel... this is the "not available to the public" group of serial numbers on cameras sold only to the US intelligence services.

Plus the Minox III could not have had a serial number in this range (see: http://www.minox.org/minoxencyclopedia/a/ModelA.html). The 5-digit serial number (27253) would indicate that the cameral the DPD initially obtained from the Paine residence on 11/22/63 must have been a Model A, Series II, Minox subminiature camera, not the Minox Model A, Series III camera that was obtained from Micheal Paine and shown in the color photograph). Plus the serial numbers are not shown on the outside of the camera but on the inside, so if the camera was sealed shut, how did they obtain the S/N and why would they say that the camera contained a roll of film on the inside if they couldn't open it?

[Albert Doyle]

I don't see anything in the Probe article that says Michael Paine's camera was sealed shut. The article says it worked OK except for the shutter.

[Ray Mitcham]

I don't see anything in the Probe article that says Michael Paine's camera was sealed shut. The article says it worked OK except for the shutter.

Albert, it is at present sealed shut, and inoperable. It wasn't when the Paine's gave it to the authorities.

I wonder who sealed it and why? Hmmm....

[Albert Doyle]

Like many things associated with the assassination...



Off-Topic: David Josephs has my respect for the well-written post he made concerning the Evica Model on the Education Forum. It's time it was said.


.

[Deborra Ann Low]

Deborra,

It is unclear if this is the actual picture from Curry's book in the link:



https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site...59KIaKM%3A

Right. The link I was referring to was this one: http://jfkassassination.net/russ/minox.htm
and I believe the photos included on this website are the same one's included in Curry's book.
I believe the link provided by Steve Margolis may simply be a stock photo example of the same type of Minox camera that was allegedly found in Oswald's seabag by Det. Gus Rose, because the serial number indicates it was a Minox model A, II, which is not the same as the Minox model A, III that was given to the DPD by Michael Paine. Michael Paine's Minox could not have had a serial number matching the one listed by the FBI as being the one later obtained from Michael Paine (from the coffee can at the Irving, Tx, residence). This seems to be an obvious attempt to pull the old switcheroo, even though the serial number listed by the DPD is a dead giveaway that there had to have been two cameras, Oswald's and Paine's (with Oswald's camera probably being the one with serial number 27259). Much later there actually turns out to be three cameras thrown into the mix, to further obfuscate the issue. The third camera is mentioned during the HSCA's interrogatory with Marina Oswald, and that one has a seven digit serial number of 2338393, which would make that camera a Model C Minox. Where did that one come from or was it just thrown in out of the blue to see if Marina would falsely ID it as Oswald's camera? Why wasn't that camera ever explained as to where it came from and why it was shown to Marina? Strange, to say the very least.

I don't think it could be more obvious that there was some major mischief going on with this camera shell game, but Det. Rose wasn't going playing along. He not only found a camera in Oswald's seabag, he scratched his initials on the base of that camera. If he mistook it for the light meter (a light meter with a roll of film inside???) then his initials should have been scratched on the bottom of the light meter. Were they?? Does anyone know? Paine's Model III Minox camera could be eliminated from the mix if the serial number could be reported, but apparently it's been sealed shut, at least according to author, and JFK assassination researcher, John Armstrong. How has this been verified? Anyone???