Clifton tape and Collins Radio Doug Horne

[Bernice Moore]

Bill from what i have been reading and trying to stay up with, i understand there could be at least another 2hrs plus, missing from the tapes, is that about your estimate.thanks b

[Jan Klimkowski]

Bill Kelly - I was responding to the following posted earlier in this thread:

From the insidethearrb article, Douglas Horne writes:

I've got news for you, Chris Matthews: I have no trouble believing that Timothy McVeigh was an angry lone nut who blew up a Federal Building and killed many innocent people, and furthermore I have no trouble believing that Mark David Chapman, for instance, killed John Lennon all by himself, or that President Ford was stalked by a lone nut who attempted to kill him but failed. I have no trouble believing those things because the overwhelming weight of the evidence points in that direction in each case. In spite of my love for the Beatles, I did not have a strong emotional need that forced me to construct a conspiracy theory around how and why John Lennon was murdered. Get real, Chris---spare us the psychobabble.

If Douglas Horne did not in fact write these words, then I stand corrected on that specific, but not in my judgement of McVeigh, Chapman and Fromme.

[Bill Kelly]

Bill Kelly - I was responding to the following posted earlier in this thread:

From the insidethearrb article, Douglas Horne writes:

I've got news for you, Chris Matthews: I have no trouble believing that Timothy McVeigh was an angry lone nut who blew up a Federal Building and killed many innocent people, and furthermore I have no trouble believing that Mark David Chapman, for instance, killed John Lennon all by himself, or that President Ford was stalked by a lone nut who attempted to kill him but failed. I have no trouble believing those things because the overwhelming weight of the evidence points in that direction in each case. In spite of my love for the Beatles, I did not have a strong emotional need that forced me to construct a conspiracy theory around how and why John Lennon was murdered. Get real, Chris---spare us the psychobabble.

If Douglas Horne did not in fact write these words, then I stand corrected on that specific, but not in my judgement of McVeigh, Chapman and Fromme.

The point being that it doesn't matter what Horne's thinks about McVeigh, who had a partner, Chapman, who killed Lennon standing next to a Bay of Pigs vet or Fromme, a nutty Manson devote, as every case is different. I did pass on the comments to Doug whose response I agree with, and if you dismiss Horne's analysis of the AF1 tape based on your distorted opinion of his, then you don't have to interupt the analysis of what's on the Clifton AF1 tapes.

As Horne recognizes, it is a simple attempt to change the subject from the Clifton Tapes to opinions on other cases of no relevance. And I'd like the Hall Monitors to make sure that others don't disrupt the discussion's topic - Clifton's AF1 tapes. Thanks.

And B., I think there are probably about two more hours of conversations not on the known tapes, but those are the most significant patches, if we put PDS's "Negative Template" thesis to the test.

Doug Wrote:

Bill,

I don't give a shit who said these things. I'm not even going to
check to find out. I'm entitled to my own opinions.

Different people interpret the same evidence differently. As you
know, this is why history is an ongoing story.

My opinion of my own opinions and research validates my work, not the
opinions of others.

Anybody can be wrong about issues A,B, or C; but even if they are
wrong about one or two things, it doesn't invalidate other work they
have done.

It seems to me the kind of nasty comments you were quoting (regardless
of who said them---and I really don't care or need to know) are
someone's attempt to change the subject.

And another thing---that kind of person, who thrives in the chatroom
environment where they can throw their stink bombs at will, is usually
a negative personality with too much time on their hands. The
negative types on chatrooms love to tear other people down, but rarely
have anything noteworthy to contribute themselves.

Books last forever---chatroom conversations are forgotten in a week
and are never retained in any format that will be used or accessed by
anyone in the future. It's all about EGO on those sites.

I don't care if I am wrong about John Lennon's assassin, or even about
the Altgens photo. Those are small issues. Being wrong about those
things would not affect the many other things I am undoubtedly right
about in my book---like the Z film being altered; like the two brain
exams; and like figuring out where the post mortem surgery took place:
at Bethesda.

Doug

[Jan Klimkowski]

Bill - you got something on your mind?

Spit it out.

Please do.

Whilst we're at it, did Horne say those words? Or not?

[Bill Kelly]

Bill - you got something on your mind?

Spit it out.

Please do.

Whilst we're at it, did Horne say those words? Or not?

I don't know if he said them or not, and quoted his response to me.

I believe McVeigh had a partner, Lennon was assassinated and Fromme wired to Manson, and I don't care what Horne's opinion is of those other cases, or if he believes in the tooth fairy, his work as the Chief Analyst for Military Records for the ARRB makes his analysis of the AF1 radio tapes worthwhile.

If you or Alan disagree, and insist on bringing up Horne's other quotes taken out of context and basing an opinion of Horne on those other quotes, then that's a very narrow mind at work, and since the opinion is that Horne's analysis is not worth paying attention to, then don't pay attention to it. Don't try to change the subject and knock the topic off course.

If you don't want to further the discussion on the topic of the AF1 tapes and want to discuss McVeign, Chapman, Frome and Horne's opinion of them, then start another thread and discuss them till you'r heart's content.

I have also recently learned that Doug Horne may be the special guest on tonight's Black Op Radio show with Len Osanic tonight (Thursday, March 8), on the topic of the AF1 radio tapes, so those who respect Horne's opinion on such things can tune in and hear what he has to say.

I think the AF1 radio tapes are a porthole window into the heart and soul of the conspiracy to kill JFK and allows us to see and track the coup as it happened.

Bill Kelly [URL="http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/"]
JFKcountercoup[/URL]

[Jan Klimkowski]

Bill - thank you.

I agree that the AF1 tapes are very important.

Thank you also for drawing attention to the Black Ops Radio show tonight.

[Bill Kelly]

Bill - thank you.

I agree that the AF1 tapes are very important.

Thank you also for drawing attention to the Black Ops Radio show tonight.

I hope others think like you do Jan,
and will not only listen to the show tonight, but help develop this new evidence further.

BK
JFKcountercoup

[Charles Drago]

If you or Alan disagree, and insist on bringing up Horne's other quotes taken out of context and basing an opinion of Horne on those other quotes, then that's a very narrow mind at work, and since the opinion is that Horne's analysis is not worth paying attention to, then don't pay attention to it. Don't try to change the subject and knock the topic off course.

If you don't want to further the discussion on the topic of the AF1 tapes and want to discuss McVeign, Chapman, Frome and Horne's opinion of them, then start another thread and discuss them till you'r heart's content.

1. Jan did not take Horne's "other quotes" out of context. Horne foolishly made the references. In doing so, he and he alone instituted the opportunities for misdirection. What did he gain by making those references to Matthews? Why did he show his throat? There was not the slightest rhetorical need to do so.

2. From from indicating the reasoning of a narrow mind, Jan's observations reflect the mind of a seasoned, mature, deeply thoughtful deep political scientist -- one who realizes the implications of Horne's foolhardy (my adjective) decision to throw in dismissive references to mysterious, likely conspiratorial-in-nature deep political events to a discussion of an extremely important matter.

I cannot overstate the value I place on Doug Horne's research. And, for that matter, on your own. When, however, Horne makes a critical mistake as described above, he needs to be taken to task for it. That you have run to Doug and, to use schoolyard vernacular, "told on us," is as distressing as is the fact that you come here as a highly valued and welcome guest and act like a moderator or forum owner.

Neither Jan nor I are attempting to change the subject. And neither Doug Horne nor any other researcher is above reproach -- including Jan, you, and me.

CD

[Magda Hassan]

http://www.blackopradio.com/

[Bernice Moore]

Bill; i noticed under the first show 568 archived a note, re robert oswald and braden at Parkland, re a photo....that is not Braden it is ss forest Sorrels ......if any question contact Vince Palamara, he settled this issue some time ago, also in reference to him being seen in a photo in Dealey park, after the assassination..where he was mis id as braden...that caused the confusion, in the first place....i will post the photo i think the question is based on, he also is seen, sorrels at parkland in the background of a photo of marina.shown.best b.......ps Bill here is a photo of the real Braden re the Garrison investigation, in the middle...b.ps also with LBJ and youngblood leaving parkland...which as you can see at one time was unidentified and many guessed at down through time..which only confuses all the more...b...fwtaw