John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee

[Jim Hargrove]

Great post, David. Thank you!

In the unlikely event anyone fails to recognize the photo David used to show Harvey Oswald's left elbow, it's a close up from the famous DPD mug shot:

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Jim

[Bruce Baird]

I have just come to this thread and realize it has died down but I believe there is still much that could be discussed about John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee and the accompanying website.

The series of pictures of "Lee" Oswald (top) and "Harvey" Oswald (bottom) at harveyandlee.net suggest to me there were two Oswalds (if not more!).




But I have some questions about these pictures that I wonder if Mr. Hargrove or Mr. Armstrong could answer. At the website, when you hover your mouse over certain of these pictures a pop-up caption appears.

For example, if you point your mouse at the picture of "Lee" (top row) in 1952 the caption reads:

American-born Lee Oswald in his 6th grade class photo at Riglea [sic] West Elementary School in Ft. Worth. Classmate Richard Garrett told the FBI that Oswald was the "tallest, most dominant" boy in his class.

If you point your mouse at the picture of "Lee" (top row) in 1954 the caption reads:

Ed Voebel took this picture of LEE Oswald in Oct,1954, in the 8th grade at Beauregard Jr. High in New Orleans, shortly after his fight with Johnny Neumeyer. LEE, according to the Warren Commission. Lee was assigned to homeroom #303 on the upper floor. After studying this photo, Myra Darouse said this was not the Oswald she had known in her homeroom in the basement cafeteria of the same school. Click to see interview with Myra DaRouse.

If you point your mouse at the picture of "Harvey" (bottom row) in 1954 the caption reads:

This is HARVEY Oswald, the boy in Myra Darouse's homeroom class in the basement cafeteria during the Spring of 1954. In the fall of 1954 HARVEY was in the 8th grade at Stripling Jr. High in Ft. Worth, while LEE Oswald was still in New Orleans. Click to watch former assistant principal Frank Kudlaty discuss his memory of handing HARVEY Oswald's Stripling school records to FBI agents soon after the assassination. This evidence all disappeared. Also on You Tube is an interview with former student Fran Schubert, who remembered Harvey at Stripling.

My first question concerns the picture of "Harvey" (bottom row) in 1954. This picture comes from the Beauregard Junior High School 1955 Annual Yearbook photo which you can see if go to harveyandlee.net and click on

2011--Poague Library at Baylor University copied more than 101,000 of Mr. Armstong's documents. Click here to access those documents.

then locate

Box Number 18
Notebook Number 07
Tab Number 02
Tab Name: Beauregard 1955

This file contains a copy of what appears to be the entire Beauregard Junior High School 1955 Annual Yearbook. The picture of the student referred to as "Lee Oswald" can be found on page 22 of this yearbook. There are several scans of this photo of "Lee Oswald" in the Poage Library file which can be seen by clicking on Page 13, Page 18, Page 30, Page 34, Page 35, and Page 47.

This yearbook photo covered the 1954-1955 school year and, as I recall, in my experience as both as teacher and a student, yearbook photos have always been taken in the fall of the traditional (September to May/June) school year, so this photo would have been taken at Beauregard in the fall of 1954 when "Harvey" was supposedly in Stripling Jr. High in Ft. Worth. Now how can "Harvey" be at both Beauregard AND Stripling in the fall of 1954?

The caption on this fall 1954 photograph is also confusing. The caption claims that this fall 1954 photo is of "HARVEY Oswald, the boy in Myra Darouse's homeroom class in the basement cafeteria during the Spring of 1954". But if you click on the 1954 "Lee" photo to see the actual interview with Myra Darouse you see her quite actually saying something quite different. Here is my transcript of what Mrs. Larue said:

My name is Myra DaRouse Larue and I began teaching school in Orleans Parish in 1953, September. And my school that I was assigned to was Beauregard Junior High School, which is located on Canal Street. I was a physical education teacher. My second year there I was given a homeroom and I held my roll call either in the cafeteria or on the stage in the basement. Sometime after Christmas I got a new student. It turned out that his name was Lee Harvey Oswald. I never called him Lee Harvey Oswald because he asked me not to call him Lee. And I asked him what he would like to be called, and he said Harvey. So I've known him as Harvey Oswald. My contact with him was just in a homeroom roll call because I only taught girls physical education. But, sometime, how it happened I don't know, he and I became friends. And each afternoon as I did my coaching after school he would always seem to be in the yard sitting around or many times Ed Voebel would come over and Ed lived only a couple of blocks from school and he would come over and that is about the only person that I really saw Harvey socializing with in the time that I knew him." [John Armstrong - Myra DaRouse Larue Interview Part 1, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwUsZ8RjIqg]

Watching the entire interview you can see how Mrs. Larue gets confused about actual years that something happened, as I can second is quite natural for a school teacher trying to recall a particular student in the past. But there are some dates that Mrs. Larue is quite certain of. One, that she started teaching at Beauregard in September 1953. Two, that she was given a homeroom her second year at Beauregard, which would have been the 1954-1955 school year.

Later in the interview she mentions that she only taught at Beauregard for three years and had her homeroom in the middle year.

Q: When did you have your homeroom? What year?
A: 54, September of 54 .
Q: That was the only time you had a homeroom?
A: Now [counting] 53? 54? Yeah. Only one.
Q: You worked [unintelligible] for three years?
A. Three years.
Q: And in the middle year, the second year you were there, you had the homeroom.
A: Hmm.
Q. And he was in your homeroom class?
A: Yes." [John Armstrong - Myra DaRouse Larue Interview Part 1, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwUsZ8RjIqg, 8:10-8:40]

Based on this interview one would have to conclude that Mrs. Larue first met "Harvey" sometime after Christmas of 1954, not the spring of 1954! And yet the website claims again that "Harvey" was not at Beauregard during the 1954-1955 school year, only the person depicted in the 1954 "Lee" picture.

This 1955 yearbook photo of "Lee Oswald" has a long pedigree. The photo was published above the caption "9TH GRADER LEE OSWALD At Beauregard School." on the front page of the New Orleans States-Item (the afternoon paper) in the Final Edition, Saturday, November 23, 1963 [http://www.knowla.org/image/3958/] THe next morning (November 24, 1963) the photo was published on the front page of the big Sunday edition of The Times-Picayune above the caption "LEE HARVEY OSWALD From school yearbook here." accompanying an article by Paul Atkinson titled "School Doesn't Recall Oswald: Principal, Students Can't Remember Him" [http://www.knowla.org/image/3959/]

It was thus the 1955 yearbook photo of "Lee Oswald" that New Orleanians would have seen as former Beauregard students started coming forth to recall what they remembered about this rather shadowy figure from their past. And yet I have yet to find an interview where the interviewee positively identifies the 1955 Yearbook photo as the Oswald they remember at Beauregard 1954-1955.

The FBI took photographs of the 1955 yearbook picture on 4 Dec 1963. [Poage Library, JFK-John Armstrong Collection, Box 14, Notebook 1, Tab 27 (Yearbook Photo), p. 2] The FBI apparently used the 1955 yearbook photo when interviewing former Beauregard administrators, teachers, and students who might have known Oswald. However, apparently the only explicit mentions of the FBI use of the photo in FBI files is when the subject could not remember Oswald at all. For example, the 27 Jan 1964 interview of Joseph Thompson who attended Beauregard Junior High School 1952-55, Warren Easton High School 1955-59 and 1960-61, and served in the Civil Air Patrol 1955-59. He is also pictured in the 1955 Beauregard year book.

Mr. THOMPSON said that after the assassination of the President, he saw OSWALD's picture in the paper and on television. The accounts related that OSWALD had gone to Beauregard Junior High School and had lived on French Street, only a few blocks away from THOMPSON. Despite this, he was unable to recall OSWALD and was not able to do so even after he examined a Beauregard Junior High School yearbook. [Poage Library, JFK-John Armstrong Collection, Box 14, Notebook 1, Tab 28 (CAP). p. 24.]

See also the interview of Louis Lansford, formerly boys counselor at Beauregard Junior High School. [Poage Library, JFK-John Armstrong Collection, Box 14, Notebook 1, Tab 22 (Interviews with friends). p. 47.]

Although the photo is in his files at Poage Library, John Armstrong curiously does not mention the 1955 yearbook photo even once in Harvey and Lee and does not include the photo in the CD that accompanies the book. It would seem an explanation is in order how "Harvey" can be at Beauregard in the fall of 1954 when "Harvey" is supposed to be at Stripling in Ft. Worth and "Lee" is the only Oswald supposedly at Beauregard.

Moreover, what are WE to make of this 1955 yearbook photo? Is this a picture of "Harvey", "Lee", or somebody else? The 1954 "Harvey" in the photo montage above certainly seems quite strikingly similar to the older 1959 "Harvey" and significantly different from the 1952 "Lee". And how does one explain the 1954 "Lee" picture with its odd posture that does not really look like any of the other pictures but yet was supposedly taken in English 202 at Beauregard Junior High School in October 1954, around the same time the 1955 yearbook picture would have been taken?

[Bruce Baird]

In my submission I included the photo montage of the different "Lee" and "Harvey" photos from 1952-1959 that I copied from harveyandlee.net so that list members could see the photos without having to go to the website. But apparently that did not work! Can somebody tell me how to post this photo montage or do it for me?

Thanks so much,

Bruce

[David Josephs]

Hi Bruce...

I've been doing quite a lot of work with John these past months and maybe this will help:

Harvey on the left, LEE on the right....



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This yearbook photo covered the 1954-1955 school year and, as I recall, in my experience as both as teacher and a student, yearbook photos have always been taken in the fall of the traditional (September to May/June) school year, so this photo would have been taken at Beauregard in the fall of 1954 when "Harvey" was supposedly in Stripling Jr. High in Ft. Worth. Now how can "Harvey" be at both Beauregard AND Stripling in the fall of 1954?

<snip>

Moreover, what are WE to make of this 1955 yearbook photo? Is this a picture of "Harvey", "Lee", or somebody else? The 1954 "Harvey" in the photo montage above certainly seems quite strikingly similar to the older 1959 "Harvey" and significantly different from the 1952 "Lee". And how does one explain the 1954 "Lee" picture with its odd posture that does not really look like any of the other pictures but yet was supposedly taken in English 202 at Beauregard Junior High School in October 1954, around the same time the 1955 yearbook picture would have been taken?

The photo of OSWALD in the BJHS yearbook as being in 9th grade in 1954/55 might actually be LEE (in MY opinion)... HARVEY was not seen in or around BJHS after June 1954. Simply because the photo is placed in a collage and given a title does not mean it is set in stone.... It SHOULD be LEE for as you said, HARVEY was at Stripling for a short period according to both Robert Oswald and Kudlaty, living just across the street. He then just drops out of sight with indications he and MO go to San Diego where HARVEY is a messenger for ETI Realty.

The question one should ask is how does HOOVER know enough about STRIPLING in 1954 to send agents to Kudlaty the morning after the assassination when there are no records of LEE attending Stripling EVER, let alone in 1954? How does HOOVER know that the accused 1954 JHS records are necessary on 11/23?

The follow up is - according to the records OSWALD leaves Warren Easton from 9/8/55 to 10/10/55.... and never graduates from 10th grade...

On the same day as the Xfer of High SChool credits is dated, the same date is written on the WARREN EASTON record as having been sent to Arlington HS.

Any idea how a student who did not attend more than a couple weeks of 10th grade in NOLA can simply enter 11th grade in Ft Worth? It appears as if he goes to Arlington on the 5th of Sept 1956, the transcripts arrive a week or so later then he leaves and joins the Marines - AGAIN without having to have a permenant HIGH SCHOOL record... the last photo of OSWALD is the 54-55 photo we are discussing.

If the 1954 photos are indeed LEE and HARVEY, then when that photo is dated is very important. Myra's dates are a year earlier... and why you will see no FBI questions about the 53-54 year.

To me, they are close enough that they both could be LEE. Yet you bring up a very good point of conflicting info regarding WHO the 1954 photo of HARVEY must be...

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[David Josephs]

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index....ntry259115


This is for you Bruce... Greg and I go at it with the evidence... I think you will find the pervasive FBI side-step is carried on by Greg as well....

The witnesses are only asked about 54-55, never the fall of 1953 when HARVEY was with Myra.
How exactly does one attacka theory about 1953 with questions and evidence about 1954?

DJ

[David Josephs]

While there are very real differences in their size and facial features there is another, fairly easy way to tell...

HARVEY has squared off shoulders in most of the pictures... LEE has sloped shoulders

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[James Norwood]

David Josephs:

You have posted some dazzling visual materials. But I hope we will not lose track of Bruce Baird's queries. Bruce has done some excellent research on the Poage site and has raised a legitimate question about the homeroom of instructor Myra DaRouse where "Harvey" Oswald was her student.

Myra claims that she started teaching at Beauregard in September, 1953 and that in "my second year, I was given a homeroom." When teachers talk about a "year," it typically means an academic year, not a calendar year. Therefore, she was assigned her homeroom in the basement in the academic year 1954-55. Thus, Harvey could not have been in Myra's homeroom until fall 1954--the precise time when the evidence points to him being at Stripling in Forth Worth.

Perhaps Myra was mistaken about Harvey's assignment to her as a homeroom student. She was teaching at Beauregard in spring 1954 without a designated homeroom. This was a phys ed teacher, who was presumably spending more time in the yard than in the classroom. If Harvey entered Beauregard in the spring of 1954, it is still plausible that she mentored him and came to his assistance when he was injured.

Have you been able to locate a copy of the Beauregard JHS yearbook for 1953-54? In Box 18 on the Poage Library site, I could only find the 1954-55 yearbook. It would really be interesting to peruse the 1953-54 yearbook and see if there are any photos of "Lee Oswald."


James

[Dawn Meredith]

Hey Jim
I just realized last week you are the same one who does JA's site. Great work. Talked to John on Sunday and he gave DPF a big thumbs up.
He keeps adding more great stuff to the Tippip section then calling me to make sure I have read it. Yes. I think he has nailed this one. I love this site and have emailed it to others.
Just a quick hello as I rush out the door to court.

Cheers
Dawn

[David Josephs]

That would be Jim Hargrove Dawn.
====
Jim N... thanks for your kind words

I see that now Jim, thanks. The book will have a few conflicts... this is one of them.

One of the most mysterious times in young OSWALD's lives is the summer and fall of 1953 (North Dakota, Bronx Zoo photo Louise Robertson the "maid", Jacobi Hosptial references 2 years before opening....). Myra does not see HARVEY until Spring semester 1953/4 school year - CE1384 has OSWALD in Sept 1953 as 5'4" 115lbs. This is the Bronx Zoo photo - I found these rails were standard height 36"... THIS BOY is not the same LEE attending ps44 in NYC and one of the tallest/biggest/leader kids in the class. the inset is his 6th grade picture... the Bronx zoo is at least 12 if not 18 months later...

These are not the same boys - as John Pic so clearly pointed out.

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Other than the line on the BJHS record these are the only two other people who support HARVEY being at BJHS in the SPRING 1954.

Myra and fellow teacher Dorothy Duvik followed Voebel into the basement
cafeteria and found Harvey on the floor with a small, upright piano, laying across his legs.
The two women, along with Voebel, pulled Harvey out from underneath the piano and
asked him what had happened.


My own analysis of that record (the BJHS record) is a bit different than John's at this point. From the grade cards for the two classes HARVEY took we see a complete set of TERM grades for SPRING 54 - the 2nd semester of 8th grade - while there is only 1 TERM GRADE for the FALL... the LAST one.

Which to me means that the student arrived late in the semester (as HARVEY usually did) and was only graded once suggesting HARVEY does not attend until about Nov 1953. If he was there earlier he would have more TERM GRADES in the fall than just the one... at least in my thinking.

NOTE: the 303 on the cards is LEE's homeroom # - on the third floor, which were only given to 9th graders. The thing to remember is that TWO RECORDS have been combined into ONE person... LEE, who started BJHS in JAN 1954. LEE was never the truant in NYC, did not go to YOUTH HOUSE and attended NYC school ps44 as expected... (yet the NYC school records are also "created" as the number of days it is said he attended school is simply wrong... the WCR tries to put 124 school days into the period from 3/23/53 thru 6/4/53... (I've posted these records side by side to show how they have been written, rewritten and changed...

I happen to believe that the 54-55 year is also a composite (see 2nd graphic) as the grade cards and cumulative records do not match... and there were more than 180 days in the SPRING semester... (180 was the minimum # of days in a school year... I think the BJHS record was manufactured after the fact by combining HARVEY and LEE's records. (Last school is listed as ps44: BYRON JHS - which did not exist and insured that BJHS would not get the records... ther are 3 ps44's in NY: Bronx, Queens and Manhattan - which one LEE attended is still not definite - it is possible H&L both attended a ps44 without being together)



From H&L p.87
"Room 303 is on the third floor of Beauregard Junior High School, while Myra's homeroom was in the basement cafeteria"

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[James Norwood]

David,

You have done some splendid work in your careful study of the school records of the two Oswald boys at Beauregard. You are right in being skeptical about the authenticity of the records, especially when we only have copies of original documents, such as those from Beauregard. At the same time, the Warren Commission staff made a fatal error in publishing records of one Oswald boy attending school in PS 44 in New York City (WCH Vol. XXII, p. 697) and another Oswald boy attending school at Beauregard Junior High in New Orleans (WCH Vol. XXII, p. 817) at the same time in fall 1953. On the basis of those two documents alone, we have evidence of the existence of "Harvey" and "Lee."

I still believe that Bruce has raised two excellent queries about Beauregard:

(1) HOMEROOM: If Myra was not assigned a homeroom until the academic year 1954-55, then Harvey Oswald could not have been a student in her homeroom, as he was residing in Forth Worth in fall 1954. One clue to resolving this matter is Myra's reference to teaching Harvey in the basement cafeteria of Beauregard. It would be unlikely that a teacher would be assigned a homeroom in a school cafeteria, which requires time for setting up for the students' lunches, then cleaning up their mess. But it would be a suitable location for a physical education teacher who had not yet been assigned a homeroom in the academic year 1953-54. There is corroborating evidence that Harvey sustained an injury in the basement cafeteria, where his teacher Myra came to his assistance. This at least helps to support the credibility of Myra as an eyewitness.

(2) YEARBOOK PHOTO: The yearbook photo of 1954-55 really looks like Harvey Oswald. He has the same dimples as the boy in the Bronx Zoo photo. By contrast, lanky Lee Oswald does not have dimples. I can't resolve this issue, but I would really like to see the 1953-54 Beauregard yearbook to learn if there is any photo or reference to Oswald. There is an online class reunion site called classmates.com, which advertises old yearbooks. That site might also be a place to connect with people in the New Orleans area. The children or grandchildren of those attending Beauregard Junior High in 1953-54 might have one of those priceless books.


James