08-03-2010, 08:42 PM
Since John mentions Wim, here is a post of his from http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index....topic=1758
Guest_Wim Dankbaar_* Sep 27 2004, 06:59 PM
Post #3
Guests
Dave Reitzes - in his usual distortive lying style - just posted this on Lancer on invitation of Bob Vernon. After calling each other names for years they seem to be brothers in arms now. The obvious question here is: Why do McAdams and Reitzes need to go through so much trouble if Judyth is so obviously a hoax? It seems almost a life mission for them to discredit Judyth and her story. Why bother?
Wim
John McAdams's article on Judyth Baker <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/judyth.htm> highlights many of the problems with those portions of Judyth's story that have been made publicly available; but I'd like to also take a minute to emphasize a few more of the contradictions inherent in Judyth's accounts to date.
This is a work in progress.
JUDYTH VARY BAKER: THE STORY SO FAR
(According to Judyth Vary Baker, Martin Shackelford, and Howard Platzman, Ph.D.)
Note: Howard Platzman is co-author (with Judyth) of "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy," various drafts of which Judyth has submitted to assassination researchers and prospective publishers. Martin Shackelford has been described by Platzman as Judyth's lead researcher.
Judyth Vary Baker worked for the CIA on an anti-Castro assassination project, and she can prove it. (1)
Judyth was never an employee or agent of the CIA, and never said she was. (2)
Judyth was introduced to Lee Oswald one day in New Orleans. (3)
No one introduced Judyth and Oswald; they met purely by chance. (4)
Or maybe not. (5)
Oswald worked for the CIA on an anti-Castro assassination project (and others), and Judyth can prove it. (6)
Oswald may not have worked for the CIA after all. (7)
A photograph published in the Warren Commission Report shows Judyth standing next to Oswald. (8)
There are no photographs depicting both Judyth and Oswald, and Judyth has never claimed otherwise. (9)
Judyth met Jack Ruby only once. (10)
Judyth met Jack Ruby twice. (11)
David Atlee Phillips was one of Oswald's CIA handlers. (12)
David Atlee Phillips may not have been one of Oswald's CIA handlers. (13)
Oswald knew Phillips by name. (14)
Oswald did not know Phillips by name. (15)
Oswald knew his handler as "Bishop." (16)
Oswald did not know his handler as "Bishop." (17)
"Bishop" was Phillips. (18)
"Bishop" and Phillips may have been two different people. (19)
Oswald said that Phillips was "Bishop." (20)
Oswald never said that Phillips was "Bishop." (21)
Oswald knew his handler as "Mr. B." (22)
Oswald did not know his handler as "Mr. B." (23)
"Mr. B" was Phillips. (24)
"Mr. B" may not have been Phillips. (25)
"Mr. B" may have been two different people, one of whom may have been Phillips. (26)
"Mr. B" was also "Bishop." (27)
"Mr. B" was not also "Bishop." (28)
Phillips was known as "Mr. Benson" or "Mr. Benton." (29)
"Mr. Benson" or "Mr. Benton" may have been somebody else. (30)
"Mr. B," "Mr. Bishop," and "Mr. Benson" or "Mr. Benton" were all the same person. (31)
"Mr. B," "Mr. Bishop," and "Mr. Benson" or "Mr. Benton" may have been at least two different people. (32)
Judyth met Guy Banister just once. (33)
Judyth met Guy Banister twice. (34)
Guy Banister was CIA. (35)
Guy Banister was not CIA, and Judyth never said he was. (36)
Judyth was introduced to Clay Shaw on one occasion, saw him from a distance on another, and spoke with him once on the phone. Shaw paid for some of her hotel trysts with Oswald. (37)
Judyth simply met Clay Shaw one time. (38)
Judyth did not know Clay Shaw. (39)
Clay Shaw was closely involved in the anti-Castro plot with Ochsner and the others. (40)
Clay Shaw was not closely involved in the anti-Castro plot with Ochsner and the others. (41)
Judyth knew Carlos Marcello, who affectionately referred to her as "That Little Thing." She and Oswald met with him personally, he picked up the tab for many of their dinners out, and it was due to his influence that she was never murdered by the conspirators who killed John F. Kennedy. (42)
Judyth did not know Carlos Marcello, and she has never claimed that she did. (43)
Oswald discussed Richard Case Nagell with Judyth in some detail, informing her he knew that Nagell, whom he referred to as one of his "doppelgangers," "had purposely gotten himself arrested for fear of being set up as a patsy." (44)
Oswald may have never discussed Nagell with Judyth, and anyone who thinks Judyth has referred to Richard Case Nagell in her writings is only making an assumption. (45)
Judyth's mentor was famed surgeon and humanitarian Dr. Alton Ochsner. For a time she worked for Ochsner. (46)
Judyth never worked for Alton Ochsner and never claimed to. They had no formal relationship. (47)
Oswald knew in advance about the assassination and, in an attempt to infiltrate and stop it, walked with eyes wide open into the "patsy" role. (48)
Oswald did not know he was slated to be the "patsy." (49)
On November 22, 1963, Judyth and a number of her co-workers set up chairs and watched the assassination of John F. Kennedy on television. (50)
Judyth and her co-workers absolutely did not watch the assassination of John F. Kennedy on television. (51)
(To be continued . . .)
****************************
1. Judyth Vary Baker, biographical blurb posted at Manatee High School alumni website. Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sanitize.htm>: "Lee Oswald and I worked together for the CIA in an anti-Castro project which included delivery of live biological weapons into Cuba, one of them aimed to kill Castro." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, October 6, 2000: "I knew important people, and in indianapolis (sic) got conscripted into the CIA though (I) was just a minor." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, October 7, 2000: ". . . (Dr. Canute) Michaelson gave my name to the CIA as one of the bright brains in the country, and from that time on, I had access to equipment, funds, you name it, as well as special training involving doctors who got trained at Oak Ridge. . . . In short--and i (sic) can fill in many details--I had gone through projects starting in indianapolis (sic) with my being, apparently, conscripted into service of the CIA. I sa(y) apparently because i (sic) was a minor, and my father may have signed papers for me. I signed a lot of them, but I did not even bother to read them." Related sources: Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail to Dave Reitzes, October 11, 2000: "I claimed connections with Oak Ridge and the CIA. They found documents from Oak Ridge--and presence of a CIA agent at the training sessions --which only recently have been released." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 16, 2000: "Not that I hadn;t (sic) bona fide ties with CIA. I did . . ." See also Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>. Judyth has stated numerous times that she has evidence to support all she says. For example: ". . . WHEN ONE HAS BEEN TRAINED AS A SCIENTIST, AND THEY HAVE WRITTEN AND REVIEWED AND READ MANY PAPERS, GENERALLY THEY ARE AWARE THAT IF THEY MAKE A STATEMENT, THERE HAD BETTER BE BACK-UP. SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT TRAINED IN THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD MAY NOT REALIZE THIS RESPONSIBILITY. I TAKE THE RESPONSIBILITY TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE OR BACK-UP FOR MY STATEMENTS SERIOUSLY. MU (sic) HAVING BEEN TRAINED IN THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD MEANS THAT I AM PARTICULARLY SENSITIVE TO THE ISSUE OF PROOF AND DOCUMENTATION." (Judyth Vary Baker, Internet forum post, May 7, 2004
<http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?act=ST&f=126&t=696&hl=&view=findpost&p=4498>.) Judyth Vary Baker, post to JFKresearch.com, November 2, 2002: ". . . I can prove every word i (sic) am writing here--- i (sic) can assure you that what we were doing was trying to create a biological weapon to get castro (sic) inn (sic) what would seem to be a natural death."
2. Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, November 14, 2002 (5:59 AM): "I am VERY upset that jack (sic) White has been posting a message to my high school classmates saying my story is 'bizarre' and asking their opinion, including the erroneous statement that I claimed to be a CIA agent--I NEVER EVER CLAIMED SUCH A THING." Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, November 12, 2002: ". . . YOU SENT AN EMAIL (sic) MESSAGE . . . STATING THAT I SAID I WAS A CIA AGENT. THAT IS SOMETHING I HAVE N- E- V- E- R SAID!!!!" Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, November 14, 2002 (6:43 AM): "I was introduced to people I suspected were working for the CIA. I was never, myself, 'recruited' to my knowledge. I did sign loyalty oaths---three of them." Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, November 14, 2002 (7:56 AM): "When somebody first suggested i (sic) was CIA connected, I was shocked, it had not been that way in my experience. lee (sic) never said so in so many words." Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, November 15, 2002: "Was it a CIA project? I am not certain even of that, i (sic) assume it because CIA people I now know were involved." Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, July 9, 2003: "There has never been a claim that she was hired 'by the CIA.' You repeat this claim twice, totally without foundation. You also falsely suggest that Judyth claims the cancer project was a direct CIA project." Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, October 28, 2001: "There is no claim that Judyth was a CIA employee." Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, December 17, 2000: "You keep assuming CIA employment is claimed. On what basis?" In a JFKresearch.com post of November 2, 2002, Judyth describes herself as "an untraceable asset." Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, November 20, 2002: "Please, I have been told I was a CIA asset, that my time and labor was used by the CIA. To me, that is working for the CIA, but not as a member of the CIA, and some work I did before New oleans (sic) was also under the table. I will be happy to modify the terminology if it is manifestly misleading people, never my intention."
3. Judyth Vary Baker, biographical blurb posted at Manatee High School alumni website. Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sanitize.htm>:"I spoke crude conversational Russian by 1963, when I was introduced in New Orleans to Lee Harvey Oswald."
4. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "When Lee was ordered to move to New Orleans in April 1963, he met Judyth by accident (or maybe not) at the new post office."
5. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "When Lee was ordered to move to New Orleans in April 1963, he met Judyth by accident (or maybe not) at the new post office." In an e-mail of November 6, 2000, Judyth explains, "I npow (sic) suspect Lee was sent there to check on me b y (sic) ochsner (sic), but I never dreamed of it at the time!" In a statement posted by Wim Dankbaar to JFKresearch.com, November 7, 2002, Judyth states: "I now believe Lee was sent to check me out because I'd arrived two weeks early on invitation from Dr. Ochsner (though i (sic) did check into the 'Y' as he had asked me to)--school got out quicker than in New orleans (sic) because we were on the trimester schedule (I didn't want to face parents and friends because I'd had a recent miscarriage, which is why Robert asked me to marry him, so we could get birth control pills). I now believe that Ochsner sent Lee to check me out, see if I was okay, etc. because he would be able to recognize me (I looked strikingly like (h)is own wife). He never told me this, nor did Ochsner bring it up, but it is the only way i (sic) can account for the fact that Lee and I met April 26, a day after he had arrived in New Orleans, at this brand new post office."
6. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "Lee Oswald, a CIA operative . . ." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 13, 2000: "I have a great deal of proof that Lee Oswald warked (sic) for the CIA and was involved, with me, in a get-Castro project." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 16, 2000: "In the end, history will have to accept that Lee Oswald was working for the CIA while in New Orleans, whatever else history wants to say about him. I provide sufficient evidence and inside knowledge to prove it."
7. Judyth Vary Baker, defunct website at Switchboard.com. Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sboard.htm>: "When I knew Lee, he was an FBI informant. He also worked closely with persons associated or working for the CIA, though I don't know from which agency Lee himself had been 'borrowed,' for he told me he had been borrowed (---by the CIA?) and was not allowed to tell me what agency he came from." Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, November 14, 2002 (7:56 AM): "When somebody first suggested i (sic) was CIA connected, I was shocked, it had not been that way in my experience. lee (sic) never said so in so many words."
8. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy," alternate draft posted to alt.assassination.jfk by Ihateliars1@yahoo.com, October 29, 2001: "There is a (poor) picture of her in the Warren Report standing next to Lee while he was leafleting. There is a resemblance between the girl in the photo and contemporaneous photos of Judyth. The dress pattern in the picture matches close-up photos of a dress Judyth wore in other photos in her possession." Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance," alternate draft provided to Robert Vernon, posted by Vernon at alt.assassination.jfk, August 30, 2004: "Judyth is 90% certain that Warren Commission exhibit Pizzo 453-B, a photo of the scene, includes her standing near Lee. The picture is blurry, but there is a resemblance between the girl in the photo and contemporaneous photos of Judyth. The dress pattern in the picture matches close-up photos of a dress Judyth wore in other photos in her possession. The original film from which the still was made was recently sent by TV station WDSU, on which it aired, for archiving at the University of New Orleans. The last time we checked, it was still unarchived, in one of many unmarked boxes."
9. Judyth Vary Baker, Internet forum post, May 5 2004 <http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?act=ST&f=126&t=696&hl=&view=findpost&p=4498>: ". . . I did manage to save enough to prove who I was and our affair. Not that there are photos of Lee and me together, none of that. We were both married and we knew we were in a clandestine operation." Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, August 29, 2004: "She has always said this, Dave."
10. Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, July 3, 2003: "Jack Ruby--(Judyth) met (him) once, (he was) introduced as 'Sparky,' . . ." Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, July 11, 2003: "Jack Ruby--(Judyth) met (him) once, (he was) introduced as 'Sparky,' (Judyth) didn't realize until 1999 that 'Sparky' was Jack Ruby."
11. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "While Judyth was in Lee's company, she met Jack Ruby twice, in May and June of 1963, once at Ferrie's apartment and once at The 500 Club, a Marcello hang-out."
12. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "Lee came to believe his CIA handler, 'Mr. B.,' was actually Phillips." Judyth claims that in his final conversation with her, he instructed her to be sure to remember the name, "David Atlee Phillips." See Judyth Vary Baker, "Before the Silence Came: Lee's Last Telephone Calls," circulated draft of chapter for Deadly Alliance. Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/endofline.pdf>. Judyth Vary Baker, Internet forum post, June 12, 2004 <http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=693&st=90>: ". . . (M)istakes can happen. Phillips allowed Lee to be seen (by Antonio Veciana Blanch). Lee reported some additional details of this meeting to me."
13. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 12, 2000: "While Lee had reason to believe the man he met in Dallas, introduced to him as 'Bishop' was actually 'Phillips' because he never met 'Phillips' it was always speculation, though based on strong suspicions." Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "(Oswald's handler) Mr. B may not have been Phillips. Another CIA figure, Frank Bender, one alias of Gerry Droller, was known inside the agency as Mr. B."
14. David Lifton, alt.assassination.jfk post, November 6, 2000, citing his telephone interview with Judyth Vary Baker, March 4, 2000. (Lifton: "How did he (Oswald) know his (Phillips's) name, by the way?" Judyth: "Oh, he met him.") "During the same 24 hour period," Lifton writes, "Judyth spoke with a friend of mine, and made the same statement. She was cross examined vigorously by my friend, and Judyth insisted that was the case."
15. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 12, 2000: "While Lee had reason to believe the man he met in Dallas, introduced to him as 'Bishop' was actually 'Phillips' because he never met 'Phillips' it was always speculation, though based on strong suspicions."
16. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 12, 2000: "While Lee had reason to believe the man he met in Dallas, introduced to him as 'Bishop' was actually 'Phillips' because he never met 'Phillips' it was always speculation, though based on strong suspicions."
17. Judyth Vary Baker, message posted to JFKresearch.com forum by Wim Dankbaar, November 7, 2002: "However, he met with a 'Mr. B' in Texas whom we both believed to be Phillips."
18. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 6, 2000: ". . . Lee and I speculated and concluded that Bishop and Phillips were possibly the same person, Lee seemed certaoin (sic) of it at the end."
19. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 6, 2000: "As you know, Lee told me he met a 'Bishop' in Dallas. While he did not say in an equation that 'Bishop' and 'Phillips' were the same person, I did understand he meant that both those persons were his handlers. The last time lee (sic) spoke to me, he implied they were possibly the same person."
20. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 6, 2000: ". . . Lee and I speculated and concluded that Bishop and Phillips were possibly the same person, Lee seemed certaoin (sic) of it at the end."
21. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 6, 2000: "At the end, Lee said to remember Phillips' name. I do not believe he even said Bishop and Phillips were the same people, EVEN THEN."
22. Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, November 14, 2002 (7:56 AM): Oswald "said he wasn;t (sic) sure about David Atlee Phillips being the person who was responsible, but HE HAD OBTAINED THAT NAME. It had been heard once before in New Orleans at a meeting, the man's actual name, but no understanding of the role. And there were other names we thought were the same man, known to Lee as 'Mr. B.' Frank bender (sic) could have filled that name as well . . ."
23. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 12, 2000: "While Lee had reason to believe the man he met in Dallas, introduced to him as 'Bishop' was actually 'Phillips' because he never met 'Phillips' it was always speculation, though based on strong suspicions."
24. Judyth Vary Baker, message posted to JFKresearch.com forum by Wim Dankbaar, November 7, 2002: "However, he met with a 'Mr. B' in Texas whom we both believed to be Phillips."
25. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "Mr. B may not have been Phillips. Another CIA figure, Frank Bender, one alias of Gerry Droller, was known inside the agency as Mr. B."
26. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, date unknown, posted to alt.assassination.jfk by Ihateliars1@yahoo.com, October 29, 2001: "He told me never forget that David Atlee Phillips was the man who we thought of as in the chess game, we thought he was 'Bishop' and also 'Mr. B.' But I now believe that 'Mr. B' was Bender as bpoth (sic) Phillips and bender (sic) worked together at exactly this time, and sometimes we were amazed that 'Mr. B' or 'Bishop' (yes, I know it sounds bad that we also heard the name 'Bishop') seemed to be in two places at once sometimes. Now I believe it was because both men gave us the impression that they were the same man."
27. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 7, 2000: "For instance, Lee mentioned a 'Mr. B.' When we heard the name 'Bishop' we wondered if this was the 'Mr. B' who had been mentioned by Dave ferrie (sic) and by Carlos Quiroga and some other Cubans such as Sergio A."
28. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 12, 2000: "I was confused until almost the present by thinking that "Mr. B" might be "Bishop." Now i (sic) believe that person to be Frank bender (sic)."
29. Judyth Vary Baker, Internet forum post, June 12, 2004 <http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=693&st=90>: "But Phillips was in town at least once, as 'Mr. Benson'or (sic) 'Mr. Benton.' I can't remember which anymore."
30. The Men Who Killed Kennedy: The Love Affair, 2003 documentary, A & E Home Video: Oswald's handler was "Mr. B, Mr. Bishop, or Benson or whatever, Benton," who Oswald also said was probably David Atlee Phillips. Judyth has elsewhere stated that "Mr. B" could be another person altogether: Gerry Droller, a.k.a. Frank Bender. See for example: Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "Mr. B may not have been Phillips. Another CIA figure, Frank Bender, one alias of Gerry Droller, was known inside the agency as Mr. B." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 12, 2000: "I was confused until almost the present by thinking that "Mr. B" might be "Bishop." Now i (sic) believe that person to be Frank bender (sic)."
31. The Men Who Killed Kennedy: The Love Affair, 2003 documentary, A & E Home Video: Oswald's handler was "Mr. B, Mr. Bishop, or Benson or whatever, Benton," who Oswald also said was probably David Atlee Phillips.
32. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, date unknown, posted to alt.assassination.jfk by Ihateliars1@yahoo.com, October 29, 2001: "He told me never forget that David Atlee Phillips was the man who we thought of as in the chess game, we thought he was 'Bishop' and also 'Mr. B.' But I now believe that 'Mr. B' was Bender as bpoth (sic) Phillips and bender (sic) worked together at exactly this time, and sometimes we were amazed that 'Mr. B' or 'Bishop' (yes, I know it sounds bad that we also heard the name 'Bishop') seemed to be in two places at once sometimes. Now I believe it was because both men gave us the impression that they were the same man." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 7, 2000: "For instance, Lee mentioned a 'Mr. B.' When we heard the name 'Bishop' we wondered if this was the 'Mr. B' who had been mentioned by Dave ferrie (sic) and by Carlos Quiroga and some other Cubans such as Sergio A."
33. Black Op Radio, Episode 171, May 13, 2004, Part 1. Online at <http://www.blackopradio.com/black171a.ram>: "Yes, I was introduced once to Guy Banister." See also Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, July 11, 2003: "Guy Banister--met him once, not introduced by name."
34. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, October 7, 2000: "I met Banister only twice."
35. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: ". . . ex-FBI man, now-CIA operative, Guy Banister . . ."
36. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, September 13, 2003: "Dave, I never said Banister had anything to do with the CIA." See also Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, August 5, 2004: "As for his (Banister's) CIA involvement, that remains uncertain among many people, not just Judyth. You've found one meaningless contradiction--congratulations."
37. Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, September 11, 2004: "Inventing imaginary contradictions again, I see, Dave. Judyth SAW Clay Shaw twice. On ONE of those occasions, she MET him. As Howard noted, she didn't KNOW him--just introduced once. I hope reality isn't too complicated and confusing for you, Dave." Phone: Howard Platzman, e-mail to Dave Reitzes, October 9, 2000: "It was in June or so of last year that I first saw Judyth's rambling text. She reports on a call from (a man using the name) Lambert to Reily's and she says, matter of factly, that it was (Clay) Shaw. . . . In another part of her text, she recalls accompanying Lee, Shaw, and Ferrie to the airport, where they (not including her) took an overnight trip to Canada." Hotel trysts: Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "At the end of August, Shaw paid for the last of several hotel trysts for Judyth and Lee. According to Judyth, Shaw felt sorry for them."
38. Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, July 11, 2003: "Clay Shaw--Judyth met him once. No biggie."
39. Howard Platzman, e-mail to Dave Reitzes, June 19, 2000: "My witness (Judyth) knew Ferrie, not Shaw."
40. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "Judyth personally met other plotters, including Banister, Shaw, and Marcello . . ." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, date unknown, posted to alt.assassination.jfk by Ihateliars1@yahoo.com, October 29, 2001: "It is who i (sic) knew and what they did and what we did that then comes into play: i (sic) was in the center of the effort in New Orleans to kill Castro, and my knowledge makes it clear what went on later, and why. I have also showed how close a relationship Ochsner and Shaw really had, closer than was realized . . ."
41. Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, February 14, 2003: "I have never said Shaw was a co-conspirator. I said Ochsner distanced himself from Shaw deliberately by replacing him at International House March 23, 1962, when he began the project. However (sic), Shaw had his ways to find out what Ochsner was up to, important to us. There's more, this is exhausting me. Many have seen the evidence linking Ochsner, i (sic) have given them a lot of leads."
42. Met with Marcello: Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "Judyth personally met other plotters, including Banister, Shaw, and Marcello . . ." Black Op Radio, Episode 171, May 13, 2004, Part 1. Online at <http://www.blackopradio.com/black171a.ram>: Judyth plays a portion of an audiotape recording with Anna Lewis Vincent, where Vincent describes a meeting between herself, her late husband David F. Lewis, Judyth, Oswald, Jack Ruby, and Marcello: "So we go to the 500 Club and we met there. There was me, Judy, David, Lee we met with, Carlos Marcellus (sic) and Jack Ruby." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail to Dave Reitzes, November 6, 2000: "I was in the poor excuse for a library out at the brand new university there when everything was military world war II temporary buildings and quonset (sic) huts and stuff, and blazing sun outside. . . . This was the same day Marcello came by out there, on the brand new grassy area and new sidewalk area there, with mafia, who were visiting from Chicago, in a black limo (usually Marcello didn;t (sic) go that fancy, at least, not that summer). He had a woman in the car with them give Lee and me each a martini -- from the limo. We threw the drinks out but kept the little tray and the two glasses." "That Little Thing": Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 22, 2000 (writing about herself in the third person): "If you have any witness out there who rememvers (sic) 'that little thing' as Carlos Marcello and others called her . . . now is the time to bring out what you know." Spared by Marcello: Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 22, 2000 (writing about herself in the third person): "In the end, Lee Oswald was murdered for his part in penetrating the assassination ring he had joined in hopes of destroying. Judyth, liked by Marcello, was spared IF she would keep her mouth shut and withdraw from the medical community. Judyth complied." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, September 27, 2000: "Don't worry, I'm safe, because they respect Carlos Marcello's original order to leave me alone so long as I do not mention the names of anybody still alive, or too close to anybody alive, and i (sic) have not and will not. I would be the deadest meat in the world if I said everything i (sic) know." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail to Dave Reitzes, October 7, 2000: ". . . (O)ne of the things that saved me was Carlos' (sic) Marcello's fondness for me and my favorite girlfriend in New Orleans." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 7, 2000: "I was fortnate (sic) in that carlos (sic) marcello (sic), just as he did for Anna, was kind enough to protect me from harm. It was his personal word that I would not talk." Tabs picked up by Marcello: Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail to Terry Mauro, posted by Mauro to JFKresearch.com, December 29, 2002: "I ate with Lee downtown, we had free access to The Five Hundred Club, a free tab, had to pay nothing, same for Court of Two Sisters and a couple of other places run by Marcello's people, where we could come in as long as it wasn;t (sic) night-time and order anything we wanted, tab on Marcello." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, October 29, 2000: ". . . Lee liked to take me to places called 'Lee' just for a blast. That is why we also went out to thre (sic) House of lkee (sic) and I (sic) found out that critter was in tight with the mafia, because the meal was free(Marcello (sic) paid the tab wherever we went where the mob owned or part-owned a place." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, October 2, 2000: ". . . THESE WERE NIGHTCLUBS...let's see, Five Hundred Club, House of Lee (restaurant, only one), Court of Two (or was it three) Sisters, and hotel meals, almost all of them lunches and a few early dinners because we did this during the day. . . . (T)hey brought the tab over, and Lee scribbled something on it, but it was shown to us 'paid' at Five Hundred Club. Other places, the tab was picked up later when Lee gave them the bill. If Marcello was ever present in a place and we were also there, the couple of times that happened, he had the bill presented to lee (sic) and it was signed, paid off."
43. Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, July 11, 2003: "Carlos Marcello--(Judyth has) never claimed to have spoken with him." Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, July 10, 2003: At most, Judyth describes "seeing Marcello in a public place in New Orleans . . ."
44. "Before the Silence Came: Lee's Last Telephone Calls," draft chapter from Judyth's manuscript, posted by Robert Vernon at alt.assassination.jfk, August 30, 2004: "Lee himself knew that Richard Nagell, one of his doppelgangers, had purposely gotten himself arrested for fear of being set up as a patsy. Nagell carried Lee's Hidell name -- a name used by more than one person I had heard about----and other incriminating ID. Nagell let it be known that he refused to become a designated patsy. He may have thought Lee was the real thing, Lee told meC (sic) that perhaps Castro had commissioned Lee to kill the President. Having heard of some of the escape plans that Lee was trying to form in an attempt, of course, to get out of Dallas after he had done all he could (and not to kill, but to save, though Nagell didn;t (sic) know that), Richard Case Nagell, fearing he'd be set up in Lee's place, may have deliberately got himself arrested and out of the action."
45. Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, September 12, 2003: "Citing Richard Case Nagell, he (John McAdams) assumes she is referring to Nagell when she only had a vague recollection of a 'Nagy or Nagell.' Many researchers will recognized (sic) the name Nagy as well, so it's hardly a given that she heard 'Nagell.'"
46. Mentor: "Judyth's Story," outline provided to Robert Vernon on December 23, 1999, posted by Vernon at alt.assassination.jfk, August 30, 2004: "Judyth had already achieved a reputation as a child prodigy in cancer research. Her mentor, Dr. Alton Ochsner, of the famed Ochsner Cancer Clinic (sic) in New Orleans . . ." The Men Who Killed Kennedy: The Love Affair, 2003 documentary, A & E Home Video: "On top of that, he'd (Ochsner) been telling me what to do for a couple of years now, and was interested in everything I was doing." Worked for Ochsner: The Men Who Killed Kennedy: The Love Affair, 2003 documentary, A & E Home Video: "In the spring of 1963 Judyth was invited to join Dr. Ochsner in New Orleans on a temporary assignment. It was an exciting offer for the young scientist. The Ochsner Clinic and its founder were world-renowned." Judyth states, "Dr. Alton Ochsner . . . said he needed me there and that he wanted me to work in the bone cancer lab with Dr. Mary Sherman." Later, according to Judyth, Ochsner was persuaded by Lee Oswald to use Judyth on a different, clandestine project involving the assassination of Fidel Castro. The Men Who Killed Kennedy: The Love Affair, 2003 documentary, A & E Home Video: "Shortly after moving in, Judyth had a meeting with Alton Ochsner at this hospital (Charity Hospital of Louisiana), her first since arriving in New Orleans. She did not go alone." Judyth: "Lee accompanied me there and told me that he had to go in first to talk to Dr. Ochsner. This made me recognize that he had already had a prior association with Ochsner. When I went in Dr. Ochsner began to explain to me . . . about the project that he had been working on for over a year. And this clearly had to do with working with these deadly cancer strains that he knew I was well adept at handling. The idea was to try and get Castro ill, very ill, and eliminated through what seemed a natural cause, in this case cancer. . . . At any rate, at the end of the summer, he promised me that I would skip two years of school, go directly into medical school, at Tulane Medical School. Of course, how could I say no?" Miscellaneous references to Ochsner: Judyth Vary Baker (neworleans63@aol.com), post to alt.conspiracy.jfk and alt.assassination.jfk, June 3, 2002: "Dr. Ochsner met both me and Lee Oswald at Charity Hospital a couple of times. We went into a small room that was set aside, like many others there, to see patients." Judyth Vary Baker (neworleans63@aol.com), post to alt.conspiracy.jfk and alt.assassination.jfk, June 4, 2002: "Once I was asked to meet Dr. O. -- by myself -- at Tulane Medical Library. . . . I only met Dr. O. four or five times. . . . Anybody who thinks this man was a pleasant fellow who smiled and did surgery and somehow had all these important latinos (sic) in high places using him as their personal physician by some kind of luck -- who had Clint Murchison financing entire buildings and Mr. hunt (sic) sending him cadillacs (sic) or whatever---if you think this man was a benign sweetie, you did not know the man I knew. He was violently inclined. He had a terrible temper and several times on the telephone yelled at me and thrashed me verbally so hard that he made me cry."
47. Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, August 29, 2004: "Judyth DOESN'T 'claim' to have 'worked for' Alton Ochsner--there was no formal relationship there." See also Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, August 29, 2004: "She says that she worked on a secret project that (Ochsner) initiated--she worked for Ferrie, supervised by Dr. Mary Sherman--Ochsner had no direct involvement . . ."
48. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "Fearing he was a dead man if he tried to break with the conspirators at this point, he (Oswald) would join them, walking with eyes wide open into the patsy role."
49. Judyth Vary Baker, post to JFKresearch.com, December 31, 2002: " . . . (Oswald) knew he was being ste (sic) up but thought he would be killed. I do not think he thought he'd be made a patsy, and, as he thought he would be killed, and I don't think he thought he'd be proclaimed as the killer...this element may have shocked him."
50. Judyth Vary Baker, interview for Dutch media (http://www.omroep.nl), originally broadcast in streaming audio on April 23, 2003: "Oh, I knew what was going to happen. I was working at a lab where I had been placed making special chemicals for our project in Florida and they all got chairs out to watch the assassination on TV. . . . And I saw it happen on TV, and we had worked so hard to stop that from happening."
51. Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, September 29, 2003 (responding to David Lifton): "Her co-workers in Florida 'knew the assassination was going to happen?' Not true, David. They gathered to watch the coverage--AFTERWARDS. Once again, you got it totally wrong. But perhaps you're just not a good listener, David."
Guest_Wim Dankbaar_* Sep 27 2004, 06:59 PM
Post #3
Guests
Dave Reitzes - in his usual distortive lying style - just posted this on Lancer on invitation of Bob Vernon. After calling each other names for years they seem to be brothers in arms now. The obvious question here is: Why do McAdams and Reitzes need to go through so much trouble if Judyth is so obviously a hoax? It seems almost a life mission for them to discredit Judyth and her story. Why bother?
Wim
John McAdams's article on Judyth Baker <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/judyth.htm> highlights many of the problems with those portions of Judyth's story that have been made publicly available; but I'd like to also take a minute to emphasize a few more of the contradictions inherent in Judyth's accounts to date.
This is a work in progress.
JUDYTH VARY BAKER: THE STORY SO FAR
(According to Judyth Vary Baker, Martin Shackelford, and Howard Platzman, Ph.D.)
Note: Howard Platzman is co-author (with Judyth) of "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy," various drafts of which Judyth has submitted to assassination researchers and prospective publishers. Martin Shackelford has been described by Platzman as Judyth's lead researcher.
Judyth Vary Baker worked for the CIA on an anti-Castro assassination project, and she can prove it. (1)
Judyth was never an employee or agent of the CIA, and never said she was. (2)
Judyth was introduced to Lee Oswald one day in New Orleans. (3)
No one introduced Judyth and Oswald; they met purely by chance. (4)
Or maybe not. (5)
Oswald worked for the CIA on an anti-Castro assassination project (and others), and Judyth can prove it. (6)
Oswald may not have worked for the CIA after all. (7)
A photograph published in the Warren Commission Report shows Judyth standing next to Oswald. (8)
There are no photographs depicting both Judyth and Oswald, and Judyth has never claimed otherwise. (9)
Judyth met Jack Ruby only once. (10)
Judyth met Jack Ruby twice. (11)
David Atlee Phillips was one of Oswald's CIA handlers. (12)
David Atlee Phillips may not have been one of Oswald's CIA handlers. (13)
Oswald knew Phillips by name. (14)
Oswald did not know Phillips by name. (15)
Oswald knew his handler as "Bishop." (16)
Oswald did not know his handler as "Bishop." (17)
"Bishop" was Phillips. (18)
"Bishop" and Phillips may have been two different people. (19)
Oswald said that Phillips was "Bishop." (20)
Oswald never said that Phillips was "Bishop." (21)
Oswald knew his handler as "Mr. B." (22)
Oswald did not know his handler as "Mr. B." (23)
"Mr. B" was Phillips. (24)
"Mr. B" may not have been Phillips. (25)
"Mr. B" may have been two different people, one of whom may have been Phillips. (26)
"Mr. B" was also "Bishop." (27)
"Mr. B" was not also "Bishop." (28)
Phillips was known as "Mr. Benson" or "Mr. Benton." (29)
"Mr. Benson" or "Mr. Benton" may have been somebody else. (30)
"Mr. B," "Mr. Bishop," and "Mr. Benson" or "Mr. Benton" were all the same person. (31)
"Mr. B," "Mr. Bishop," and "Mr. Benson" or "Mr. Benton" may have been at least two different people. (32)
Judyth met Guy Banister just once. (33)
Judyth met Guy Banister twice. (34)
Guy Banister was CIA. (35)
Guy Banister was not CIA, and Judyth never said he was. (36)
Judyth was introduced to Clay Shaw on one occasion, saw him from a distance on another, and spoke with him once on the phone. Shaw paid for some of her hotel trysts with Oswald. (37)
Judyth simply met Clay Shaw one time. (38)
Judyth did not know Clay Shaw. (39)
Clay Shaw was closely involved in the anti-Castro plot with Ochsner and the others. (40)
Clay Shaw was not closely involved in the anti-Castro plot with Ochsner and the others. (41)
Judyth knew Carlos Marcello, who affectionately referred to her as "That Little Thing." She and Oswald met with him personally, he picked up the tab for many of their dinners out, and it was due to his influence that she was never murdered by the conspirators who killed John F. Kennedy. (42)
Judyth did not know Carlos Marcello, and she has never claimed that she did. (43)
Oswald discussed Richard Case Nagell with Judyth in some detail, informing her he knew that Nagell, whom he referred to as one of his "doppelgangers," "had purposely gotten himself arrested for fear of being set up as a patsy." (44)
Oswald may have never discussed Nagell with Judyth, and anyone who thinks Judyth has referred to Richard Case Nagell in her writings is only making an assumption. (45)
Judyth's mentor was famed surgeon and humanitarian Dr. Alton Ochsner. For a time she worked for Ochsner. (46)
Judyth never worked for Alton Ochsner and never claimed to. They had no formal relationship. (47)
Oswald knew in advance about the assassination and, in an attempt to infiltrate and stop it, walked with eyes wide open into the "patsy" role. (48)
Oswald did not know he was slated to be the "patsy." (49)
On November 22, 1963, Judyth and a number of her co-workers set up chairs and watched the assassination of John F. Kennedy on television. (50)
Judyth and her co-workers absolutely did not watch the assassination of John F. Kennedy on television. (51)
(To be continued . . .)
****************************
1. Judyth Vary Baker, biographical blurb posted at Manatee High School alumni website. Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sanitize.htm>: "Lee Oswald and I worked together for the CIA in an anti-Castro project which included delivery of live biological weapons into Cuba, one of them aimed to kill Castro." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, October 6, 2000: "I knew important people, and in indianapolis (sic) got conscripted into the CIA though (I) was just a minor." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, October 7, 2000: ". . . (Dr. Canute) Michaelson gave my name to the CIA as one of the bright brains in the country, and from that time on, I had access to equipment, funds, you name it, as well as special training involving doctors who got trained at Oak Ridge. . . . In short--and i (sic) can fill in many details--I had gone through projects starting in indianapolis (sic) with my being, apparently, conscripted into service of the CIA. I sa(y) apparently because i (sic) was a minor, and my father may have signed papers for me. I signed a lot of them, but I did not even bother to read them." Related sources: Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail to Dave Reitzes, October 11, 2000: "I claimed connections with Oak Ridge and the CIA. They found documents from Oak Ridge--and presence of a CIA agent at the training sessions --which only recently have been released." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 16, 2000: "Not that I hadn;t (sic) bona fide ties with CIA. I did . . ." See also Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>. Judyth has stated numerous times that she has evidence to support all she says. For example: ". . . WHEN ONE HAS BEEN TRAINED AS A SCIENTIST, AND THEY HAVE WRITTEN AND REVIEWED AND READ MANY PAPERS, GENERALLY THEY ARE AWARE THAT IF THEY MAKE A STATEMENT, THERE HAD BETTER BE BACK-UP. SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT TRAINED IN THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD MAY NOT REALIZE THIS RESPONSIBILITY. I TAKE THE RESPONSIBILITY TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE OR BACK-UP FOR MY STATEMENTS SERIOUSLY. MU (sic) HAVING BEEN TRAINED IN THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD MEANS THAT I AM PARTICULARLY SENSITIVE TO THE ISSUE OF PROOF AND DOCUMENTATION." (Judyth Vary Baker, Internet forum post, May 7, 2004
<http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?act=ST&f=126&t=696&hl=&view=findpost&p=4498>.) Judyth Vary Baker, post to JFKresearch.com, November 2, 2002: ". . . I can prove every word i (sic) am writing here--- i (sic) can assure you that what we were doing was trying to create a biological weapon to get castro (sic) inn (sic) what would seem to be a natural death."
2. Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, November 14, 2002 (5:59 AM): "I am VERY upset that jack (sic) White has been posting a message to my high school classmates saying my story is 'bizarre' and asking their opinion, including the erroneous statement that I claimed to be a CIA agent--I NEVER EVER CLAIMED SUCH A THING." Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, November 12, 2002: ". . . YOU SENT AN EMAIL (sic) MESSAGE . . . STATING THAT I SAID I WAS A CIA AGENT. THAT IS SOMETHING I HAVE N- E- V- E- R SAID!!!!" Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, November 14, 2002 (6:43 AM): "I was introduced to people I suspected were working for the CIA. I was never, myself, 'recruited' to my knowledge. I did sign loyalty oaths---three of them." Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, November 14, 2002 (7:56 AM): "When somebody first suggested i (sic) was CIA connected, I was shocked, it had not been that way in my experience. lee (sic) never said so in so many words." Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, November 15, 2002: "Was it a CIA project? I am not certain even of that, i (sic) assume it because CIA people I now know were involved." Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, July 9, 2003: "There has never been a claim that she was hired 'by the CIA.' You repeat this claim twice, totally without foundation. You also falsely suggest that Judyth claims the cancer project was a direct CIA project." Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, October 28, 2001: "There is no claim that Judyth was a CIA employee." Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, December 17, 2000: "You keep assuming CIA employment is claimed. On what basis?" In a JFKresearch.com post of November 2, 2002, Judyth describes herself as "an untraceable asset." Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, November 20, 2002: "Please, I have been told I was a CIA asset, that my time and labor was used by the CIA. To me, that is working for the CIA, but not as a member of the CIA, and some work I did before New oleans (sic) was also under the table. I will be happy to modify the terminology if it is manifestly misleading people, never my intention."
3. Judyth Vary Baker, biographical blurb posted at Manatee High School alumni website. Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sanitize.htm>:"I spoke crude conversational Russian by 1963, when I was introduced in New Orleans to Lee Harvey Oswald."
4. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "When Lee was ordered to move to New Orleans in April 1963, he met Judyth by accident (or maybe not) at the new post office."
5. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "When Lee was ordered to move to New Orleans in April 1963, he met Judyth by accident (or maybe not) at the new post office." In an e-mail of November 6, 2000, Judyth explains, "I npow (sic) suspect Lee was sent there to check on me b y (sic) ochsner (sic), but I never dreamed of it at the time!" In a statement posted by Wim Dankbaar to JFKresearch.com, November 7, 2002, Judyth states: "I now believe Lee was sent to check me out because I'd arrived two weeks early on invitation from Dr. Ochsner (though i (sic) did check into the 'Y' as he had asked me to)--school got out quicker than in New orleans (sic) because we were on the trimester schedule (I didn't want to face parents and friends because I'd had a recent miscarriage, which is why Robert asked me to marry him, so we could get birth control pills). I now believe that Ochsner sent Lee to check me out, see if I was okay, etc. because he would be able to recognize me (I looked strikingly like (h)is own wife). He never told me this, nor did Ochsner bring it up, but it is the only way i (sic) can account for the fact that Lee and I met April 26, a day after he had arrived in New Orleans, at this brand new post office."
6. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "Lee Oswald, a CIA operative . . ." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 13, 2000: "I have a great deal of proof that Lee Oswald warked (sic) for the CIA and was involved, with me, in a get-Castro project." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 16, 2000: "In the end, history will have to accept that Lee Oswald was working for the CIA while in New Orleans, whatever else history wants to say about him. I provide sufficient evidence and inside knowledge to prove it."
7. Judyth Vary Baker, defunct website at Switchboard.com. Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sboard.htm>: "When I knew Lee, he was an FBI informant. He also worked closely with persons associated or working for the CIA, though I don't know from which agency Lee himself had been 'borrowed,' for he told me he had been borrowed (---by the CIA?) and was not allowed to tell me what agency he came from." Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, November 14, 2002 (7:56 AM): "When somebody first suggested i (sic) was CIA connected, I was shocked, it had not been that way in my experience. lee (sic) never said so in so many words."
8. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy," alternate draft posted to alt.assassination.jfk by Ihateliars1@yahoo.com, October 29, 2001: "There is a (poor) picture of her in the Warren Report standing next to Lee while he was leafleting. There is a resemblance between the girl in the photo and contemporaneous photos of Judyth. The dress pattern in the picture matches close-up photos of a dress Judyth wore in other photos in her possession." Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance," alternate draft provided to Robert Vernon, posted by Vernon at alt.assassination.jfk, August 30, 2004: "Judyth is 90% certain that Warren Commission exhibit Pizzo 453-B, a photo of the scene, includes her standing near Lee. The picture is blurry, but there is a resemblance between the girl in the photo and contemporaneous photos of Judyth. The dress pattern in the picture matches close-up photos of a dress Judyth wore in other photos in her possession. The original film from which the still was made was recently sent by TV station WDSU, on which it aired, for archiving at the University of New Orleans. The last time we checked, it was still unarchived, in one of many unmarked boxes."
9. Judyth Vary Baker, Internet forum post, May 5 2004 <http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?act=ST&f=126&t=696&hl=&view=findpost&p=4498>: ". . . I did manage to save enough to prove who I was and our affair. Not that there are photos of Lee and me together, none of that. We were both married and we knew we were in a clandestine operation." Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, August 29, 2004: "She has always said this, Dave."
10. Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, July 3, 2003: "Jack Ruby--(Judyth) met (him) once, (he was) introduced as 'Sparky,' . . ." Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, July 11, 2003: "Jack Ruby--(Judyth) met (him) once, (he was) introduced as 'Sparky,' (Judyth) didn't realize until 1999 that 'Sparky' was Jack Ruby."
11. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "While Judyth was in Lee's company, she met Jack Ruby twice, in May and June of 1963, once at Ferrie's apartment and once at The 500 Club, a Marcello hang-out."
12. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "Lee came to believe his CIA handler, 'Mr. B.,' was actually Phillips." Judyth claims that in his final conversation with her, he instructed her to be sure to remember the name, "David Atlee Phillips." See Judyth Vary Baker, "Before the Silence Came: Lee's Last Telephone Calls," circulated draft of chapter for Deadly Alliance. Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/endofline.pdf>. Judyth Vary Baker, Internet forum post, June 12, 2004 <http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=693&st=90>: ". . . (M)istakes can happen. Phillips allowed Lee to be seen (by Antonio Veciana Blanch). Lee reported some additional details of this meeting to me."
13. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 12, 2000: "While Lee had reason to believe the man he met in Dallas, introduced to him as 'Bishop' was actually 'Phillips' because he never met 'Phillips' it was always speculation, though based on strong suspicions." Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "(Oswald's handler) Mr. B may not have been Phillips. Another CIA figure, Frank Bender, one alias of Gerry Droller, was known inside the agency as Mr. B."
14. David Lifton, alt.assassination.jfk post, November 6, 2000, citing his telephone interview with Judyth Vary Baker, March 4, 2000. (Lifton: "How did he (Oswald) know his (Phillips's) name, by the way?" Judyth: "Oh, he met him.") "During the same 24 hour period," Lifton writes, "Judyth spoke with a friend of mine, and made the same statement. She was cross examined vigorously by my friend, and Judyth insisted that was the case."
15. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 12, 2000: "While Lee had reason to believe the man he met in Dallas, introduced to him as 'Bishop' was actually 'Phillips' because he never met 'Phillips' it was always speculation, though based on strong suspicions."
16. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 12, 2000: "While Lee had reason to believe the man he met in Dallas, introduced to him as 'Bishop' was actually 'Phillips' because he never met 'Phillips' it was always speculation, though based on strong suspicions."
17. Judyth Vary Baker, message posted to JFKresearch.com forum by Wim Dankbaar, November 7, 2002: "However, he met with a 'Mr. B' in Texas whom we both believed to be Phillips."
18. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 6, 2000: ". . . Lee and I speculated and concluded that Bishop and Phillips were possibly the same person, Lee seemed certaoin (sic) of it at the end."
19. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 6, 2000: "As you know, Lee told me he met a 'Bishop' in Dallas. While he did not say in an equation that 'Bishop' and 'Phillips' were the same person, I did understand he meant that both those persons were his handlers. The last time lee (sic) spoke to me, he implied they were possibly the same person."
20. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 6, 2000: ". . . Lee and I speculated and concluded that Bishop and Phillips were possibly the same person, Lee seemed certaoin (sic) of it at the end."
21. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 6, 2000: "At the end, Lee said to remember Phillips' name. I do not believe he even said Bishop and Phillips were the same people, EVEN THEN."
22. Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, November 14, 2002 (7:56 AM): Oswald "said he wasn;t (sic) sure about David Atlee Phillips being the person who was responsible, but HE HAD OBTAINED THAT NAME. It had been heard once before in New Orleans at a meeting, the man's actual name, but no understanding of the role. And there were other names we thought were the same man, known to Lee as 'Mr. B.' Frank bender (sic) could have filled that name as well . . ."
23. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 12, 2000: "While Lee had reason to believe the man he met in Dallas, introduced to him as 'Bishop' was actually 'Phillips' because he never met 'Phillips' it was always speculation, though based on strong suspicions."
24. Judyth Vary Baker, message posted to JFKresearch.com forum by Wim Dankbaar, November 7, 2002: "However, he met with a 'Mr. B' in Texas whom we both believed to be Phillips."
25. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "Mr. B may not have been Phillips. Another CIA figure, Frank Bender, one alias of Gerry Droller, was known inside the agency as Mr. B."
26. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, date unknown, posted to alt.assassination.jfk by Ihateliars1@yahoo.com, October 29, 2001: "He told me never forget that David Atlee Phillips was the man who we thought of as in the chess game, we thought he was 'Bishop' and also 'Mr. B.' But I now believe that 'Mr. B' was Bender as bpoth (sic) Phillips and bender (sic) worked together at exactly this time, and sometimes we were amazed that 'Mr. B' or 'Bishop' (yes, I know it sounds bad that we also heard the name 'Bishop') seemed to be in two places at once sometimes. Now I believe it was because both men gave us the impression that they were the same man."
27. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 7, 2000: "For instance, Lee mentioned a 'Mr. B.' When we heard the name 'Bishop' we wondered if this was the 'Mr. B' who had been mentioned by Dave ferrie (sic) and by Carlos Quiroga and some other Cubans such as Sergio A."
28. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 12, 2000: "I was confused until almost the present by thinking that "Mr. B" might be "Bishop." Now i (sic) believe that person to be Frank bender (sic)."
29. Judyth Vary Baker, Internet forum post, June 12, 2004 <http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=693&st=90>: "But Phillips was in town at least once, as 'Mr. Benson'or (sic) 'Mr. Benton.' I can't remember which anymore."
30. The Men Who Killed Kennedy: The Love Affair, 2003 documentary, A & E Home Video: Oswald's handler was "Mr. B, Mr. Bishop, or Benson or whatever, Benton," who Oswald also said was probably David Atlee Phillips. Judyth has elsewhere stated that "Mr. B" could be another person altogether: Gerry Droller, a.k.a. Frank Bender. See for example: Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "Mr. B may not have been Phillips. Another CIA figure, Frank Bender, one alias of Gerry Droller, was known inside the agency as Mr. B." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 12, 2000: "I was confused until almost the present by thinking that "Mr. B" might be "Bishop." Now i (sic) believe that person to be Frank bender (sic)."
31. The Men Who Killed Kennedy: The Love Affair, 2003 documentary, A & E Home Video: Oswald's handler was "Mr. B, Mr. Bishop, or Benson or whatever, Benton," who Oswald also said was probably David Atlee Phillips.
32. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, date unknown, posted to alt.assassination.jfk by Ihateliars1@yahoo.com, October 29, 2001: "He told me never forget that David Atlee Phillips was the man who we thought of as in the chess game, we thought he was 'Bishop' and also 'Mr. B.' But I now believe that 'Mr. B' was Bender as bpoth (sic) Phillips and bender (sic) worked together at exactly this time, and sometimes we were amazed that 'Mr. B' or 'Bishop' (yes, I know it sounds bad that we also heard the name 'Bishop') seemed to be in two places at once sometimes. Now I believe it was because both men gave us the impression that they were the same man." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 7, 2000: "For instance, Lee mentioned a 'Mr. B.' When we heard the name 'Bishop' we wondered if this was the 'Mr. B' who had been mentioned by Dave ferrie (sic) and by Carlos Quiroga and some other Cubans such as Sergio A."
33. Black Op Radio, Episode 171, May 13, 2004, Part 1. Online at <http://www.blackopradio.com/black171a.ram>: "Yes, I was introduced once to Guy Banister." See also Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, July 11, 2003: "Guy Banister--met him once, not introduced by name."
34. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, October 7, 2000: "I met Banister only twice."
35. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: ". . . ex-FBI man, now-CIA operative, Guy Banister . . ."
36. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, September 13, 2003: "Dave, I never said Banister had anything to do with the CIA." See also Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, August 5, 2004: "As for his (Banister's) CIA involvement, that remains uncertain among many people, not just Judyth. You've found one meaningless contradiction--congratulations."
37. Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, September 11, 2004: "Inventing imaginary contradictions again, I see, Dave. Judyth SAW Clay Shaw twice. On ONE of those occasions, she MET him. As Howard noted, she didn't KNOW him--just introduced once. I hope reality isn't too complicated and confusing for you, Dave." Phone: Howard Platzman, e-mail to Dave Reitzes, October 9, 2000: "It was in June or so of last year that I first saw Judyth's rambling text. She reports on a call from (a man using the name) Lambert to Reily's and she says, matter of factly, that it was (Clay) Shaw. . . . In another part of her text, she recalls accompanying Lee, Shaw, and Ferrie to the airport, where they (not including her) took an overnight trip to Canada." Hotel trysts: Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "At the end of August, Shaw paid for the last of several hotel trysts for Judyth and Lee. According to Judyth, Shaw felt sorry for them."
38. Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, July 11, 2003: "Clay Shaw--Judyth met him once. No biggie."
39. Howard Platzman, e-mail to Dave Reitzes, June 19, 2000: "My witness (Judyth) knew Ferrie, not Shaw."
40. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "Judyth personally met other plotters, including Banister, Shaw, and Marcello . . ." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, date unknown, posted to alt.assassination.jfk by Ihateliars1@yahoo.com, October 29, 2001: "It is who i (sic) knew and what they did and what we did that then comes into play: i (sic) was in the center of the effort in New Orleans to kill Castro, and my knowledge makes it clear what went on later, and why. I have also showed how close a relationship Ochsner and Shaw really had, closer than was realized . . ."
41. Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, February 14, 2003: "I have never said Shaw was a co-conspirator. I said Ochsner distanced himself from Shaw deliberately by replacing him at International House March 23, 1962, when he began the project. However (sic), Shaw had his ways to find out what Ochsner was up to, important to us. There's more, this is exhausting me. Many have seen the evidence linking Ochsner, i (sic) have given them a lot of leads."
42. Met with Marcello: Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "Judyth personally met other plotters, including Banister, Shaw, and Marcello . . ." Black Op Radio, Episode 171, May 13, 2004, Part 1. Online at <http://www.blackopradio.com/black171a.ram>: Judyth plays a portion of an audiotape recording with Anna Lewis Vincent, where Vincent describes a meeting between herself, her late husband David F. Lewis, Judyth, Oswald, Jack Ruby, and Marcello: "So we go to the 500 Club and we met there. There was me, Judy, David, Lee we met with, Carlos Marcellus (sic) and Jack Ruby." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail to Dave Reitzes, November 6, 2000: "I was in the poor excuse for a library out at the brand new university there when everything was military world war II temporary buildings and quonset (sic) huts and stuff, and blazing sun outside. . . . This was the same day Marcello came by out there, on the brand new grassy area and new sidewalk area there, with mafia, who were visiting from Chicago, in a black limo (usually Marcello didn;t (sic) go that fancy, at least, not that summer). He had a woman in the car with them give Lee and me each a martini -- from the limo. We threw the drinks out but kept the little tray and the two glasses." "That Little Thing": Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 22, 2000 (writing about herself in the third person): "If you have any witness out there who rememvers (sic) 'that little thing' as Carlos Marcello and others called her . . . now is the time to bring out what you know." Spared by Marcello: Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 22, 2000 (writing about herself in the third person): "In the end, Lee Oswald was murdered for his part in penetrating the assassination ring he had joined in hopes of destroying. Judyth, liked by Marcello, was spared IF she would keep her mouth shut and withdraw from the medical community. Judyth complied." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, September 27, 2000: "Don't worry, I'm safe, because they respect Carlos Marcello's original order to leave me alone so long as I do not mention the names of anybody still alive, or too close to anybody alive, and i (sic) have not and will not. I would be the deadest meat in the world if I said everything i (sic) know." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail to Dave Reitzes, October 7, 2000: ". . . (O)ne of the things that saved me was Carlos' (sic) Marcello's fondness for me and my favorite girlfriend in New Orleans." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 7, 2000: "I was fortnate (sic) in that carlos (sic) marcello (sic), just as he did for Anna, was kind enough to protect me from harm. It was his personal word that I would not talk." Tabs picked up by Marcello: Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail to Terry Mauro, posted by Mauro to JFKresearch.com, December 29, 2002: "I ate with Lee downtown, we had free access to The Five Hundred Club, a free tab, had to pay nothing, same for Court of Two Sisters and a couple of other places run by Marcello's people, where we could come in as long as it wasn;t (sic) night-time and order anything we wanted, tab on Marcello." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, October 29, 2000: ". . . Lee liked to take me to places called 'Lee' just for a blast. That is why we also went out to thre (sic) House of lkee (sic) and I (sic) found out that critter was in tight with the mafia, because the meal was free(Marcello (sic) paid the tab wherever we went where the mob owned or part-owned a place." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, October 2, 2000: ". . . THESE WERE NIGHTCLUBS...let's see, Five Hundred Club, House of Lee (restaurant, only one), Court of Two (or was it three) Sisters, and hotel meals, almost all of them lunches and a few early dinners because we did this during the day. . . . (T)hey brought the tab over, and Lee scribbled something on it, but it was shown to us 'paid' at Five Hundred Club. Other places, the tab was picked up later when Lee gave them the bill. If Marcello was ever present in a place and we were also there, the couple of times that happened, he had the bill presented to lee (sic) and it was signed, paid off."
43. Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, July 11, 2003: "Carlos Marcello--(Judyth has) never claimed to have spoken with him." Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, July 10, 2003: At most, Judyth describes "seeing Marcello in a public place in New Orleans . . ."
44. "Before the Silence Came: Lee's Last Telephone Calls," draft chapter from Judyth's manuscript, posted by Robert Vernon at alt.assassination.jfk, August 30, 2004: "Lee himself knew that Richard Nagell, one of his doppelgangers, had purposely gotten himself arrested for fear of being set up as a patsy. Nagell carried Lee's Hidell name -- a name used by more than one person I had heard about----and other incriminating ID. Nagell let it be known that he refused to become a designated patsy. He may have thought Lee was the real thing, Lee told meC (sic) that perhaps Castro had commissioned Lee to kill the President. Having heard of some of the escape plans that Lee was trying to form in an attempt, of course, to get out of Dallas after he had done all he could (and not to kill, but to save, though Nagell didn;t (sic) know that), Richard Case Nagell, fearing he'd be set up in Lee's place, may have deliberately got himself arrested and out of the action."
45. Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, September 12, 2003: "Citing Richard Case Nagell, he (John McAdams) assumes she is referring to Nagell when she only had a vague recollection of a 'Nagy or Nagell.' Many researchers will recognized (sic) the name Nagy as well, so it's hardly a given that she heard 'Nagell.'"
46. Mentor: "Judyth's Story," outline provided to Robert Vernon on December 23, 1999, posted by Vernon at alt.assassination.jfk, August 30, 2004: "Judyth had already achieved a reputation as a child prodigy in cancer research. Her mentor, Dr. Alton Ochsner, of the famed Ochsner Cancer Clinic (sic) in New Orleans . . ." The Men Who Killed Kennedy: The Love Affair, 2003 documentary, A & E Home Video: "On top of that, he'd (Ochsner) been telling me what to do for a couple of years now, and was interested in everything I was doing." Worked for Ochsner: The Men Who Killed Kennedy: The Love Affair, 2003 documentary, A & E Home Video: "In the spring of 1963 Judyth was invited to join Dr. Ochsner in New Orleans on a temporary assignment. It was an exciting offer for the young scientist. The Ochsner Clinic and its founder were world-renowned." Judyth states, "Dr. Alton Ochsner . . . said he needed me there and that he wanted me to work in the bone cancer lab with Dr. Mary Sherman." Later, according to Judyth, Ochsner was persuaded by Lee Oswald to use Judyth on a different, clandestine project involving the assassination of Fidel Castro. The Men Who Killed Kennedy: The Love Affair, 2003 documentary, A & E Home Video: "Shortly after moving in, Judyth had a meeting with Alton Ochsner at this hospital (Charity Hospital of Louisiana), her first since arriving in New Orleans. She did not go alone." Judyth: "Lee accompanied me there and told me that he had to go in first to talk to Dr. Ochsner. This made me recognize that he had already had a prior association with Ochsner. When I went in Dr. Ochsner began to explain to me . . . about the project that he had been working on for over a year. And this clearly had to do with working with these deadly cancer strains that he knew I was well adept at handling. The idea was to try and get Castro ill, very ill, and eliminated through what seemed a natural cause, in this case cancer. . . . At any rate, at the end of the summer, he promised me that I would skip two years of school, go directly into medical school, at Tulane Medical School. Of course, how could I say no?" Miscellaneous references to Ochsner: Judyth Vary Baker (neworleans63@aol.com), post to alt.conspiracy.jfk and alt.assassination.jfk, June 3, 2002: "Dr. Ochsner met both me and Lee Oswald at Charity Hospital a couple of times. We went into a small room that was set aside, like many others there, to see patients." Judyth Vary Baker (neworleans63@aol.com), post to alt.conspiracy.jfk and alt.assassination.jfk, June 4, 2002: "Once I was asked to meet Dr. O. -- by myself -- at Tulane Medical Library. . . . I only met Dr. O. four or five times. . . . Anybody who thinks this man was a pleasant fellow who smiled and did surgery and somehow had all these important latinos (sic) in high places using him as their personal physician by some kind of luck -- who had Clint Murchison financing entire buildings and Mr. hunt (sic) sending him cadillacs (sic) or whatever---if you think this man was a benign sweetie, you did not know the man I knew. He was violently inclined. He had a terrible temper and several times on the telephone yelled at me and thrashed me verbally so hard that he made me cry."
47. Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, August 29, 2004: "Judyth DOESN'T 'claim' to have 'worked for' Alton Ochsner--there was no formal relationship there." See also Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, August 29, 2004: "She says that she worked on a secret project that (Ochsner) initiated--she worked for Ferrie, supervised by Dr. Mary Sherman--Ochsner had no direct involvement . . ."
48. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "Fearing he was a dead man if he tried to break with the conspirators at this point, he (Oswald) would join them, walking with eyes wide open into the patsy role."
49. Judyth Vary Baker, post to JFKresearch.com, December 31, 2002: " . . . (Oswald) knew he was being ste (sic) up but thought he would be killed. I do not think he thought he'd be made a patsy, and, as he thought he would be killed, and I don't think he thought he'd be proclaimed as the killer...this element may have shocked him."
50. Judyth Vary Baker, interview for Dutch media (http://www.omroep.nl), originally broadcast in streaming audio on April 23, 2003: "Oh, I knew what was going to happen. I was working at a lab where I had been placed making special chemicals for our project in Florida and they all got chairs out to watch the assassination on TV. . . . And I saw it happen on TV, and we had worked so hard to stop that from happening."
51. Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, September 29, 2003 (responding to David Lifton): "Her co-workers in Florida 'knew the assassination was going to happen?' Not true, David. They gathered to watch the coverage--AFTERWARDS. Once again, you got it totally wrong. But perhaps you're just not a good listener, David."