06-04-2010, 03:55 PM
JUDYTH COMMENTS ON LEE'S RELATIONSHIP WITH DAVID FERRIE
NOTE: I no longer understand Jack's position or, should I say, I understand it all
too well. He appears to be completely closed minded and unwilling to admit even
when Judyth has shown him to be mistaken about Lee's discharge, about the way
in which he traveled to New Orleans, about whether or not he could drive, about
the "index" to the supporting volumes, and much more. I am at a loss as to what
to say to my dear friend, since we appear to be at an impasse. I shall continue to
post information that Judyth provides for the benefit of the research community.
This is a compendium of testimony about Ferrie and Oswald from HSCA sources.
JUDYTH COMMENTS:
No matter how many ways some people will try to say that Lee did not know Ferrie, I
know better. BELOW IS A LIST OF PEOPLE REPORTING OSWALD AND FERRIE WERE
CONTEMPORARIES IN THE Civil Air Patrol, which by the way was founded by Mr. Byrd,
[who was a Texas oil man], who purchased the building where the TSBD was located
not long before the assassination. (Note the citation I provide at the end of this post.)
1) Edward Voebel, stating that Lee Oswald may have attended a party at Dave
Ferrie's house during the CAP period (and I support that):
"On November 27, 1963, 5 days after President Kennedy's murder, Voebel was also
interviewed by New Orleans Police Department officers. In a report of this interview,
prepared for P.J. Trosclair, Jr., of the department, it was noted that Voebel believed
Oswald had attended the Moisant CAP meetings for "only about 1 month."
During the course of this police interview, however, Voebel also stated that while he
could not be sure, he thought that Oswald may once have attended a party
given by Ferrie during their involvement with the CAP.
According to the HSCA report (which I have broken into segments for easier reading):
Voebel stated that he believed Oswald attended a party (not sure) at the home
of David Ferrie (captain) right after the members of the CAP received their stripes?
Below are some records related to Lee's CAP registration and Ferrie's involvement, unofficially, in CAP during that time span.
2) In an FBI interview on November 27, 1963, another CAP executive was able to supply partial information regarding Oswald's involvement. Joseph Ehrlicker told FBI agents that while he was unable to find a CAP application by Oswald, he was able to locate a record indicating that "Oswald was enrolled as a CAP cadet on July 27, 1955, at which time he was given Serial No. 084965." Oswald was then enrolled in the cadet squadron at Moisant Airport. The records did not indicate when Oswald left the CAP unit. Also with regard to
David Ferrie:
"Ehrlicker was able to determine that Ferrie's first period as Squadron Commander was terminated December 31, 1954. He was working at Moisant Airport at this time. It was later found out that Ferrie subsequent to this date was working with the squadron at Moisant without official connection with the CAP. As of late 1955 he was no longer with the squadron.
From the fragmented CAP membership documentation provided by Ehrlicker, Ferrie was involved with the Moisant CAP unit (in an apparently unofficial capacity) for an uncertain period of time between December 31, 1954, and "late 1955?' The same CAP documentation indicated that Oswald had been involved in the same CAP unit in the summer of 1955, having officially enrolled on July 27, 1955. Thus, while the CAP documentation available in 1963 did not permit a conclusive determination, the records themselves lent substantial credence to the possibility that Oswald and Ferrie had been involved in the same CAP unit during the same period of time. While Ferrie stated during his November 25, 1963, FBI interview, that he had been a commander of the Lakefront Airport CAP unit, it was not until December 10, 1963, when he provided another statement to the Bureau, that he said he had also worked with the Moisant Airport CAP."
3) "In another interview with the committee on December 9, 1978, another former CAP member recalled Oswald's participation in the New Orleans unit. Collin Hamer, now an official of the New Orleans Public Library, stated that he had attended "about ten or twelve meetings" of the CAP unit during which Oswald was also present. Hamer knew both Oswald and Voebel and said that Oswald had begun attending the CAP meetings sometime around the summer of 1955. He stated that the 10 or 12 meetings that Oswald attended were held at the Eastern Airlines hangar at the Moisant Airport. He further stated that Oswald had attended the meetings for roughly 2 months, during which the unit usually met twice a week, on Friday nights and Sunday afternoons. Hamer commented that he had never been interviewed by the FBI following the assassination of President Kennedy.
According to Hamer, David Ferrie had been present during the CAP meetings that Oswald attended: "Ferrie was at all the meetings during the time Lee and I were involved in CAP. He didn't always do the teaching, but he was always there." Hamer told the committee that Oswald "was a real quiet kid" and that Ferrie "treated Oswald just like the rest of us. He was just the teacher so to speak."
Hamer further stated, "I don't know anything about whether or not Ferrie and Oswald had any contact outside of the CAP. All I know is that Oswald was in our unit for about 2 months, and Ferrie ran it during that time." Hamer further recalled that Ferrie was "a tough commander" who became irritated if the cadets "goofed around at all." Hamer also recalled calling Oswald's home on one occasion to make sure that Oswald was going to attend a CAP meeting. Hamer did not know why Oswald left the CAP unit.
Hamer also told the committee that he was aware that some CAP cadets had "hung around" at Ferrie's house and engaged in outside activities with him. He did not know if Oswald ever had such contact with Ferrie. Finally, Hammer said that he, himself, had become an adjutant of the CAP unit several years later and "weeded out a lot of the old files then," but did not recall handling any files on Oswald."
4) The committee also interviewed a former commander of the Moisant Airport CAP squadron, Mrs. Gladys Durr.
"Mrs. Durr had been interviewed by the FBI on November 25, 1963. In that interview, she advised that she had assumed command of the CAP unit in October or December 1955, which would have been several months after the CAP records indicated Oswald left. Mrs. Durr stated that she did not recall knowing Lee Oswald, but that David Ferrie had been "expelled" from the CAP squadron "at about the time" she joined it. While Mrs. Durr became commander of the squadron subsequent to the time when Oswald was a member, her recollection that Ferrie was still active in the unit until late 1955 would indicate that he probably was in fact with the unit during the period that Lee Oswald was in it."
"In her committee interview, Mrs. Durr stated that while she did not know Oswald, she could recall other cadets remembering that he attended the meetings. She further recalled that Ferrie had originally conducted CAP classes at New Orleans Lakefront Airport, but had then begun teaching at Moisant Airport where she was commander. She said Ferrie was a magnetic and intelligent man who had a strong following among the cadets. He also had a reputation for having bad moral character, and on one occasion some CAP cadets had become drunk at his home and engaged in various activities in the nude. [insertion by JVB: is it such a stretch to say Lee Oswald went to a party at Ferrie's after a meeting with oher CAP members, then went upstairs by himself to look a Ferrie's 'science room' --and that the other boys left, and that Oswald, who needed a ride home via Ferrie's motocycle, found himself alone with Ferrie, and feared Ferrie was going to sexually assault him? ) Mrs. Durr stated that such incidents were what led to Ferrie being expelled from that particular CAP unit. [JVB: note the plural 'incidents.']
5) "The committee interviewed another former commander of the New Orleans CAP, John Irion, active with the group from 1955 to 1959. Irion, a management and public relations consultant, worked closely with Ferrie during their years with the CAP. The two were personal friends for over 10 years, and Irion once testified on Ferrie's behalf during a legal proceeding against him. Irion, Ferrie, and the mayor of New Orleans were once photographed together a CAP photograph later published by the New Orleans Times Picayune... Irion recalled that Ferrie was a "dynamic" leader known for his intelligence. He recalled being introduced by Ferrie to Carlos Marcello's attorney, G. Wray Gill, on more than one occasion. Irion told the committee that he recalled Lee Oswald going through "basic training" with the CAP during the period in which he and Ferrie were with the New Orleans squadron, but he could not recall any specific personal contact between Oswald and Ferrie. He believed that contact was highly probable during that period."
6) "The committee was able to locate and interview Anthony Atzenhoffer, who had served as the platoon sergeant for the Moisant Airport CAP squadron in late 1954 and 1955. Atzenhoffer recalled helping coordinate the small CAP unit at Moisant and noted that his duties had included calling the roll at meetings and handling registration matters? Atzenhoffer recalled attending a party with Ferrie and other CAP cadets during that period; the party may have been at Ferrie's house. He also recalled that Ferrie once tried to recruit his CAP cadets in the squadron to participate in some kind of medical experiment."
7) The committee also interviewed Jerry Paradis, the former recruit instructor of the New Orleans Lakefront CAP unit. In confirming that Oswald had attended the Lakefront squadron meetings (in addition to the Moisant CAP meetings), Paradis corroborated the accounts of other Oswald colleagues in the CAP. Paradis, now a corporate attorney, told the committee that Oswald attended the Lakefront CAP meetings for several weeks or several months. During the period that he had served as recruit instructor, Paradis could recall that Oswald came to "at least 10 or 15 meetings," attending the CAP sessions "quite a few times."
In his interview with the committee on December 15, 1978, Paradis stated that he had never been contacted or interviewed by, the FBI about his past involvement in the CAP with Oswald and Ferrie. He also stated that no other investigators had ever interviewed him. Paradis told the committee that Oswald had attended numerous CAP meetings at which Ferrie had been the instructor. Ferrie "was always there" during the period in which Oswald attended the Lakefront squadron. Paradis repeated that he believed there were "at least 10 or 15 meetings" during which Oswald and Ferrie were present. He told the committee, "Oswald and Ferrie were in the unit together. I know they were there because I was there." Further, "I specifically remember Oswald. I can remember him clearly, and Ferrie was heading the unit then. I'm not saying that they may have been there together, I'm saying it is a certainty." Paradis noted that he and Ferrie were good friends and he had always respected Ferrie, even though Ferrie was somewhat "unusual." Paradis stated that he had no knowledge of any relationship between Oswald and Ferrie outside of the CAP meetings and did not recall anything unusual about their contact at the meetings.. He recalled that Ferrie was a "fairly stern, but generally likable" instructor. Paradis also stated that Ferrie and others from the Lakefront CAP unit sometimes participated in the Moisant CAP squadron meetings and that Ferrie later left the Lakefront unit to instruct at Moisant full-time. Paradis recalled that he had been surprised that he was not interviewed by the FBI following the President's assassination, stating, "I sure could have told them when Oswald and Ferrie were in the CAP. I could have given them what they wanted."
Reference for the above information, regarding the HSCA Committee:
David Stager: OSWALD, DAVID FERRIE AND THE CIVIL AIR PATROL
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 23:39:44 GMT
Organization: Master of Technology, Inc.
Lines: 610
Message-ID: <3n1j9b$9o8@nntp.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: crl9.crl.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent v0.46
NOTE: I no longer understand Jack's position or, should I say, I understand it all
too well. He appears to be completely closed minded and unwilling to admit even
when Judyth has shown him to be mistaken about Lee's discharge, about the way
in which he traveled to New Orleans, about whether or not he could drive, about
the "index" to the supporting volumes, and much more. I am at a loss as to what
to say to my dear friend, since we appear to be at an impasse. I shall continue to
post information that Judyth provides for the benefit of the research community.
This is a compendium of testimony about Ferrie and Oswald from HSCA sources.
JUDYTH COMMENTS:
No matter how many ways some people will try to say that Lee did not know Ferrie, I
know better. BELOW IS A LIST OF PEOPLE REPORTING OSWALD AND FERRIE WERE
CONTEMPORARIES IN THE Civil Air Patrol, which by the way was founded by Mr. Byrd,
[who was a Texas oil man], who purchased the building where the TSBD was located
not long before the assassination. (Note the citation I provide at the end of this post.)
1) Edward Voebel, stating that Lee Oswald may have attended a party at Dave
Ferrie's house during the CAP period (and I support that):
"On November 27, 1963, 5 days after President Kennedy's murder, Voebel was also
interviewed by New Orleans Police Department officers. In a report of this interview,
prepared for P.J. Trosclair, Jr., of the department, it was noted that Voebel believed
Oswald had attended the Moisant CAP meetings for "only about 1 month."
During the course of this police interview, however, Voebel also stated that while he
could not be sure, he thought that Oswald may once have attended a party
given by Ferrie during their involvement with the CAP.
According to the HSCA report (which I have broken into segments for easier reading):
Voebel stated that he believed Oswald attended a party (not sure) at the home
of David Ferrie (captain) right after the members of the CAP received their stripes?
Below are some records related to Lee's CAP registration and Ferrie's involvement, unofficially, in CAP during that time span.
2) In an FBI interview on November 27, 1963, another CAP executive was able to supply partial information regarding Oswald's involvement. Joseph Ehrlicker told FBI agents that while he was unable to find a CAP application by Oswald, he was able to locate a record indicating that "Oswald was enrolled as a CAP cadet on July 27, 1955, at which time he was given Serial No. 084965." Oswald was then enrolled in the cadet squadron at Moisant Airport. The records did not indicate when Oswald left the CAP unit. Also with regard to
David Ferrie:
"Ehrlicker was able to determine that Ferrie's first period as Squadron Commander was terminated December 31, 1954. He was working at Moisant Airport at this time. It was later found out that Ferrie subsequent to this date was working with the squadron at Moisant without official connection with the CAP. As of late 1955 he was no longer with the squadron.
From the fragmented CAP membership documentation provided by Ehrlicker, Ferrie was involved with the Moisant CAP unit (in an apparently unofficial capacity) for an uncertain period of time between December 31, 1954, and "late 1955?' The same CAP documentation indicated that Oswald had been involved in the same CAP unit in the summer of 1955, having officially enrolled on July 27, 1955. Thus, while the CAP documentation available in 1963 did not permit a conclusive determination, the records themselves lent substantial credence to the possibility that Oswald and Ferrie had been involved in the same CAP unit during the same period of time. While Ferrie stated during his November 25, 1963, FBI interview, that he had been a commander of the Lakefront Airport CAP unit, it was not until December 10, 1963, when he provided another statement to the Bureau, that he said he had also worked with the Moisant Airport CAP."
3) "In another interview with the committee on December 9, 1978, another former CAP member recalled Oswald's participation in the New Orleans unit. Collin Hamer, now an official of the New Orleans Public Library, stated that he had attended "about ten or twelve meetings" of the CAP unit during which Oswald was also present. Hamer knew both Oswald and Voebel and said that Oswald had begun attending the CAP meetings sometime around the summer of 1955. He stated that the 10 or 12 meetings that Oswald attended were held at the Eastern Airlines hangar at the Moisant Airport. He further stated that Oswald had attended the meetings for roughly 2 months, during which the unit usually met twice a week, on Friday nights and Sunday afternoons. Hamer commented that he had never been interviewed by the FBI following the assassination of President Kennedy.
According to Hamer, David Ferrie had been present during the CAP meetings that Oswald attended: "Ferrie was at all the meetings during the time Lee and I were involved in CAP. He didn't always do the teaching, but he was always there." Hamer told the committee that Oswald "was a real quiet kid" and that Ferrie "treated Oswald just like the rest of us. He was just the teacher so to speak."
Hamer further stated, "I don't know anything about whether or not Ferrie and Oswald had any contact outside of the CAP. All I know is that Oswald was in our unit for about 2 months, and Ferrie ran it during that time." Hamer further recalled that Ferrie was "a tough commander" who became irritated if the cadets "goofed around at all." Hamer also recalled calling Oswald's home on one occasion to make sure that Oswald was going to attend a CAP meeting. Hamer did not know why Oswald left the CAP unit.
Hamer also told the committee that he was aware that some CAP cadets had "hung around" at Ferrie's house and engaged in outside activities with him. He did not know if Oswald ever had such contact with Ferrie. Finally, Hammer said that he, himself, had become an adjutant of the CAP unit several years later and "weeded out a lot of the old files then," but did not recall handling any files on Oswald."
4) The committee also interviewed a former commander of the Moisant Airport CAP squadron, Mrs. Gladys Durr.
"Mrs. Durr had been interviewed by the FBI on November 25, 1963. In that interview, she advised that she had assumed command of the CAP unit in October or December 1955, which would have been several months after the CAP records indicated Oswald left. Mrs. Durr stated that she did not recall knowing Lee Oswald, but that David Ferrie had been "expelled" from the CAP squadron "at about the time" she joined it. While Mrs. Durr became commander of the squadron subsequent to the time when Oswald was a member, her recollection that Ferrie was still active in the unit until late 1955 would indicate that he probably was in fact with the unit during the period that Lee Oswald was in it."
"In her committee interview, Mrs. Durr stated that while she did not know Oswald, she could recall other cadets remembering that he attended the meetings. She further recalled that Ferrie had originally conducted CAP classes at New Orleans Lakefront Airport, but had then begun teaching at Moisant Airport where she was commander. She said Ferrie was a magnetic and intelligent man who had a strong following among the cadets. He also had a reputation for having bad moral character, and on one occasion some CAP cadets had become drunk at his home and engaged in various activities in the nude. [insertion by JVB: is it such a stretch to say Lee Oswald went to a party at Ferrie's after a meeting with oher CAP members, then went upstairs by himself to look a Ferrie's 'science room' --and that the other boys left, and that Oswald, who needed a ride home via Ferrie's motocycle, found himself alone with Ferrie, and feared Ferrie was going to sexually assault him? ) Mrs. Durr stated that such incidents were what led to Ferrie being expelled from that particular CAP unit. [JVB: note the plural 'incidents.']
5) "The committee interviewed another former commander of the New Orleans CAP, John Irion, active with the group from 1955 to 1959. Irion, a management and public relations consultant, worked closely with Ferrie during their years with the CAP. The two were personal friends for over 10 years, and Irion once testified on Ferrie's behalf during a legal proceeding against him. Irion, Ferrie, and the mayor of New Orleans were once photographed together a CAP photograph later published by the New Orleans Times Picayune... Irion recalled that Ferrie was a "dynamic" leader known for his intelligence. He recalled being introduced by Ferrie to Carlos Marcello's attorney, G. Wray Gill, on more than one occasion. Irion told the committee that he recalled Lee Oswald going through "basic training" with the CAP during the period in which he and Ferrie were with the New Orleans squadron, but he could not recall any specific personal contact between Oswald and Ferrie. He believed that contact was highly probable during that period."
6) "The committee was able to locate and interview Anthony Atzenhoffer, who had served as the platoon sergeant for the Moisant Airport CAP squadron in late 1954 and 1955. Atzenhoffer recalled helping coordinate the small CAP unit at Moisant and noted that his duties had included calling the roll at meetings and handling registration matters? Atzenhoffer recalled attending a party with Ferrie and other CAP cadets during that period; the party may have been at Ferrie's house. He also recalled that Ferrie once tried to recruit his CAP cadets in the squadron to participate in some kind of medical experiment."
7) The committee also interviewed Jerry Paradis, the former recruit instructor of the New Orleans Lakefront CAP unit. In confirming that Oswald had attended the Lakefront squadron meetings (in addition to the Moisant CAP meetings), Paradis corroborated the accounts of other Oswald colleagues in the CAP. Paradis, now a corporate attorney, told the committee that Oswald attended the Lakefront CAP meetings for several weeks or several months. During the period that he had served as recruit instructor, Paradis could recall that Oswald came to "at least 10 or 15 meetings," attending the CAP sessions "quite a few times."
In his interview with the committee on December 15, 1978, Paradis stated that he had never been contacted or interviewed by, the FBI about his past involvement in the CAP with Oswald and Ferrie. He also stated that no other investigators had ever interviewed him. Paradis told the committee that Oswald had attended numerous CAP meetings at which Ferrie had been the instructor. Ferrie "was always there" during the period in which Oswald attended the Lakefront squadron. Paradis repeated that he believed there were "at least 10 or 15 meetings" during which Oswald and Ferrie were present. He told the committee, "Oswald and Ferrie were in the unit together. I know they were there because I was there." Further, "I specifically remember Oswald. I can remember him clearly, and Ferrie was heading the unit then. I'm not saying that they may have been there together, I'm saying it is a certainty." Paradis noted that he and Ferrie were good friends and he had always respected Ferrie, even though Ferrie was somewhat "unusual." Paradis stated that he had no knowledge of any relationship between Oswald and Ferrie outside of the CAP meetings and did not recall anything unusual about their contact at the meetings.. He recalled that Ferrie was a "fairly stern, but generally likable" instructor. Paradis also stated that Ferrie and others from the Lakefront CAP unit sometimes participated in the Moisant CAP squadron meetings and that Ferrie later left the Lakefront unit to instruct at Moisant full-time. Paradis recalled that he had been surprised that he was not interviewed by the FBI following the President's assassination, stating, "I sure could have told them when Oswald and Ferrie were in the CAP. I could have given them what they wanted."
Reference for the above information, regarding the HSCA Committee:
David Stager: OSWALD, DAVID FERRIE AND THE CIVIL AIR PATROL
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 23:39:44 GMT
Organization: Master of Technology, Inc.
Lines: 610
Message-ID: <3n1j9b$9o8@nntp.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: crl9.crl.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent v0.46