12-04-2010, 02:50 PM
JIM RESPONDS TO MICHAEL HOGAN ABOUT ED HASLAM'S RESEARCH
Michael, I corresponded with Ed about your questions and he replied that he had not provided "two
accounts" of his meeting with Judyth. I suspect you may be confounding his meeting with a fake
"Judyth Vary Baker" in 1972 and the "Judyth Vary Baker" brought to him by "60 Minutes" in 2000.
On the new blog I have posted about Ed's research, you can find Chapter 17, "The Witness", from
MARY, FERRIE, AND THE MONKEY VIRUS, which may be revised for his new book, but which has
the notation "MARY, FERRIE, AND THE MONKEY VIRUS" printed on the pages we have republished.
I believe that note [2] answers another of your questions about why Ed did not pursue her in 1972.
He observes that there are three most important questions about Judyth for consideration, namely:
1. Is “this Judyth” the real Judyth Vary Baker from Bradenton, Florida? Or is she the impostor?
2. Did Judyth know Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans in 1963? If she does not have reasonable
proof to support this claim, then there is little point in pondering her story.
3. Was Judyth trained to handle cancer-causing viruses before she went to New Orleans in 1963?
If 1 and 2 above are true, then this point would qualify her as a suspect for “the technician” that
he wrote about in “The Pandemic” chapter.
Read Haslam's discussion of these questions and you will see why there is no reasonable basis to
conclude that the answers to these questions are anything other than, "Yes", "Yes", and "Yes".
I would hope that Jack White, for example, will find the time to read this brief but important piece.
Ed observes that Judyth added additional details about her research and her relationship, such as:
- 1. Judyth went to New Orleans in the 1963 at the invitation of Dr. Alton Ochsner.
- 2. Ochsner had known Judyth for several years and had previously arranged for her to be trained
at the famous cancer research center discussed above.
- 3. Ochsner promised Judyth early-admission to Tulane Medical School in return for her services in
Dr. Mary Sherman’s cancer lab at Ochsner Clinic. Ochsner also provided her with cancer research
papers on the state-of-the-art techniques such as cancer-causing viruses.
- 4. Judyth wound up working under Sherman’s direction in the underground medical laboratory in
David Ferrie’s apartment instead of in her cancer lab at the Ochsner clinic.
- 5. Judyth met Lee Oswald at the Post Office in what she thought was a chance encounter. In hind-
sight, she realized that this had to be intentional, since Lee was already working with David Ferrie,
Dr. Mary Sherman and Dr. Alton Ochsner on the bio-weapon at the time. Lee introduced her to “Dr.
David Ferrie” the following day and helped Judyth find an apartment.
- 6. When Judyth went to meet Dr. Ochsner in a room within the bowels of Charity Hospital, Lee Oswald
accompanied her to the appointment and went in first to meet with Dr. Ochsner alone.
- 7. Lee was working with ex-FBI agent Guy Banister as has been reported by many sources. Lee took
Judyth to meet Banister in his office to satisfy her concerns that the bio-weapons project is really a
secret government operation. Banister confirmed that Lee was working with them on a get-Castro project.[10]
- 8. When Judyth went to Dr. Sherman’s apartment for a private dinner with her, David Ferrie was the
only other guest. Sherman and Ferrie discussed the nature of their project with Judyth. They deemed
the idea of using cancer-causing viruses to kill Castro as morally ethical since is might prevent World War
III. Lee phoned Judyth that same night at Sherman’s apartment. Dr. Mary Sherman was the operational
director of “the project.” Ferrie and Oswald were participants.
- 9. Lee escorted and transported Judyth all over town, including to Dr. Sherman’s apartment where Judyth
dropped off “the product” and related reports forSherman’s review. Lee was “the runner.”
- 10. Judyth and Lee were provided cover-jobs at Reily Coffee Company where they were allowed to slip
out several afternoons a week to work in the underground medical laboratory in David Ferrie’s apartment.[11]
- 11. Lee Oswald’s connections to the Mafia in New Orleans are much stronger than have ever been reported
publicly.[12] Judyth and Lee ate-for-free at restaurants owned by Carlos Marcello and went to his headquarters
(500 Club and Town & Country Motel).
- 12. Lee’s role in the kill-Castro portion of the project was to transport the bio-weapon into Cuba. The radio
debates and film clips of Oswald’s leafleting were arranged by Ochsner (at Oswald’s request) to make Oswald
appear to be an authentic defector so he could get into Cuba more easily.
- 13. Judyth heard the subject of assassinating JFK was discussed at various times by various people, including
Ferrie, Sherman and Oswald. Part of the logic that was explained to Judyth was that they had to hurry up and
kill Castro with their bio-weapon before Ochsner’s friend ran out of patience and decided to kill Kennedy instead.
- 14. After testing their bio-weapon on dozens of monkeys, they arranged to test it on a human “volunteer,” a
convict brought from Angola State Penitentiary to the Jackson State Mental Hospital in rural Louisiana for that
purpose. The weapon was successful. The man died in 28 days as a result.
- 15. Judyth wrote a letter to Dr. Ochsner protesting the use of an unwitting human in their bio-weapon test and
delivered it to his secretary.[13] Upon seeing the letter, Ochsner exploded in anger and threatened both Judyth
and Lee. Everything fell apart for Judyth as a result. Ochsner reneged on his offer to place Judyth in Tulane
Medical School. Lee was ordered to Dallas. Judyth went back to Florida with her husband.
- 16. For the next few months, Judyth and Lee stayed in contact by telephone, thanks to access to the Mafia’s
“secret” Miami-to-Las Vegas sports betting lines courtesy of David Ferrie. While the phone company and the
U.S. Government might not have been able to listen to their conversations, the Mafia would have been able to!
- 17. On Wednesday, November 20, 1963, Lee told Judyth that there would be a real attempt to kill President
Kennedy when he visits Dallas on Friday. It is the last time they talked.
For reasons that will be obvious to anyone who reads Ed's work, he was in an ideal position to study Judyth.
Judyth also believes that the bioweapon was used to kill Jack Ruby, which, of course, was his contention at the
time. Neither Ed Haslam nor I has discerned any good reason to doubt Judyth's account and, in my opinion,
no one who reads the chapter archived at http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com/2010/04/ed...rys-monkey.html
or the corresponding chapter in DR. MARY'S MONKEY should have any doubt about the basic accuracy of what
Judyth has been telling us or be unable to appreciate why "60 Minutes" was excited to feature her on the show,
which, so far as I am able to sort out, was killed for political reasons and not for any lack of faith in her story.
[quote name='Michael Hogan' post='189383' date='Apr 10 2010, 08:44 PM']Jim, thank you for apologizing. You've proven true to your word to me the other day:
Judyth Baker writes:On page 316 of Dr Mary's Monkey, Ed Haslam writes: If not for a book, what did Judyth Baker think she was corroborating and correcting?
He was able to get her to corroborate and correct his version of her story without letting her in on it.
Haslam was putting his personal and professional neck of credibility on the line in support of Judyth Baker,
yet he kept his book secret ("a complete surprise") from her during the many hours they talked. Haslam
and Baker had been talking for a period lasting more than five years. Okay, seems plausible.
And Judyth Baker, during all these hours spent talking with Ed Haslam, (who was sympathetic, supportive
and empathetic to her and her cause) decided not to tell Haslam about the shortcomings contained in her book
for the reasons she has just given.
I'm sure her failure to level with Haslam on such an important matter did wonders for her credibility with him..
After all, he had referred his readers to her book in order to make up their minds whether or not to believe Judyth's story.
Whatever he thought, he was now boxed in. He has continued to say he believes Judyth Baker "as a person."
His endorsement of the Lee Harvey Oswald love story angle seems tepid, at best.
As Haslam writes: "From my perspective, I was particularly concerned that 60M could easily discredit her story as
a means of discrediting my story. Such were my initial thoughts."
Maybe he still harbors similar concerns today.
Maybe that is why Haslam, as Jim relates, "does not want to take on extensive discussion about Judyth until her book,
Me & Lee, has appeared, no doubt to have a basic reference work to which interested parties can be directed."
No doubt.
Jim, I would like to revisit my question about Haslam's account of meeting a Judy Vary Baker as detailed in his Chapter 13.
caused confusion and distrust among the 60M team. Their only evidence was my word and my memory."
I find it strange that Haslam makes no mention of trying to find his girlfriend at the time, or any of the people
that were at that party (including Baker's husband) to verify his story. Sixty Minutes certainly had the investigative
wherewithal to do that, it would seem. If such a witness would have be found, you might not be having to argue Judyth's case today.
I shake my head that Haslam doesn't even mention any attempts to find these witnesses.
As I'm sure you're aware, Haslam references his interview with Jim Marrs. It is available on YouTube and the part about his
1972 encounter with a Judyth Vary Baker begins at the 42 minute mark. He talks of meeting Baker's husband (talked to him extensively)
and baby. He talks about being "suspicious of this party" to begin with. Warning light number two to Haslam was this lady's failure to
know of his father, who was well-known at Tulane. He had the impression that she might have been connected to the CIA,
because of her steadfast refusal to discuss details of her work. None of these details made his book.
Listen to his account for yourself and tell me how convincing Haslam is concerning his refusal to talk to JVB at the party.
How convincing is his account of declining to meet her privately? Why did he not express the slightest regret in his decision?
I can't help it, I find his description of this seminally important event lacking in much detail. Haslam's reason
for not meeting with a woman that wanted to discuss the Garrison investigation and was a "good buddy" of Lee Harvey Owald
(Although Haslam used this term to Marrs, he chose not use it in his book) are just not convincing to me.
When asked by Jim Marrs to assess Judyth Baker's credibility, Haslam says that he was not concerned "with which finger
did Lee Oswald wear his wedding ring on?" He said he "tried to look at her as a person and did she make sense to him as a person?"
He thinks she is is the "genuine article."
There are other subtle differences in Haslam's accounts. This is one that perplexes me, and I would like your take:
As Haslam tells it to Marrs, when the documents from 60 Minutes arrived there was a phone number for Judyth Baker
and, after recognizing the name, he called her immediately, expecting her to be the same woman he met in 1972.
Haslam was "surprised" to find out this Judyth Baker did not live in New Orleans in 1972.
In Dr. Mary's Monkey, Haslam makes no mention of this phone call. In fact, in the book Haslam makes it clear
that he contacted Judyth Baker directly, "after the 60M debacle." He implies that by that time he had already figured out
they could not be the same woman.
Why does Haslam give two different accounts of how he first encountered the "real" Judyth Baker? What am I not seeing?
I am not implying anything about Ed Haslam, other than I don't understand some of his claims.
After this exchange, it is my intention to withdraw from this thread. What I think about the Judyth Baker story is of little significance
to anyone other than myself. I intend to read her book when it comes out.
Again Jim, I appreciate your apology.
[/quote]
Michael, I corresponded with Ed about your questions and he replied that he had not provided "two
accounts" of his meeting with Judyth. I suspect you may be confounding his meeting with a fake
"Judyth Vary Baker" in 1972 and the "Judyth Vary Baker" brought to him by "60 Minutes" in 2000.
On the new blog I have posted about Ed's research, you can find Chapter 17, "The Witness", from
MARY, FERRIE, AND THE MONKEY VIRUS, which may be revised for his new book, but which has
the notation "MARY, FERRIE, AND THE MONKEY VIRUS" printed on the pages we have republished.
I believe that note [2] answers another of your questions about why Ed did not pursue her in 1972.
He observes that there are three most important questions about Judyth for consideration, namely:
1. Is “this Judyth” the real Judyth Vary Baker from Bradenton, Florida? Or is she the impostor?
2. Did Judyth know Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans in 1963? If she does not have reasonable
proof to support this claim, then there is little point in pondering her story.
3. Was Judyth trained to handle cancer-causing viruses before she went to New Orleans in 1963?
If 1 and 2 above are true, then this point would qualify her as a suspect for “the technician” that
he wrote about in “The Pandemic” chapter.
Read Haslam's discussion of these questions and you will see why there is no reasonable basis to
conclude that the answers to these questions are anything other than, "Yes", "Yes", and "Yes".
I would hope that Jack White, for example, will find the time to read this brief but important piece.
Ed observes that Judyth added additional details about her research and her relationship, such as:
- 1. Judyth went to New Orleans in the 1963 at the invitation of Dr. Alton Ochsner.
- 2. Ochsner had known Judyth for several years and had previously arranged for her to be trained
at the famous cancer research center discussed above.
- 3. Ochsner promised Judyth early-admission to Tulane Medical School in return for her services in
Dr. Mary Sherman’s cancer lab at Ochsner Clinic. Ochsner also provided her with cancer research
papers on the state-of-the-art techniques such as cancer-causing viruses.
- 4. Judyth wound up working under Sherman’s direction in the underground medical laboratory in
David Ferrie’s apartment instead of in her cancer lab at the Ochsner clinic.
- 5. Judyth met Lee Oswald at the Post Office in what she thought was a chance encounter. In hind-
sight, she realized that this had to be intentional, since Lee was already working with David Ferrie,
Dr. Mary Sherman and Dr. Alton Ochsner on the bio-weapon at the time. Lee introduced her to “Dr.
David Ferrie” the following day and helped Judyth find an apartment.
- 6. When Judyth went to meet Dr. Ochsner in a room within the bowels of Charity Hospital, Lee Oswald
accompanied her to the appointment and went in first to meet with Dr. Ochsner alone.
- 7. Lee was working with ex-FBI agent Guy Banister as has been reported by many sources. Lee took
Judyth to meet Banister in his office to satisfy her concerns that the bio-weapons project is really a
secret government operation. Banister confirmed that Lee was working with them on a get-Castro project.[10]
- 8. When Judyth went to Dr. Sherman’s apartment for a private dinner with her, David Ferrie was the
only other guest. Sherman and Ferrie discussed the nature of their project with Judyth. They deemed
the idea of using cancer-causing viruses to kill Castro as morally ethical since is might prevent World War
III. Lee phoned Judyth that same night at Sherman’s apartment. Dr. Mary Sherman was the operational
director of “the project.” Ferrie and Oswald were participants.
- 9. Lee escorted and transported Judyth all over town, including to Dr. Sherman’s apartment where Judyth
dropped off “the product” and related reports forSherman’s review. Lee was “the runner.”
- 10. Judyth and Lee were provided cover-jobs at Reily Coffee Company where they were allowed to slip
out several afternoons a week to work in the underground medical laboratory in David Ferrie’s apartment.[11]
- 11. Lee Oswald’s connections to the Mafia in New Orleans are much stronger than have ever been reported
publicly.[12] Judyth and Lee ate-for-free at restaurants owned by Carlos Marcello and went to his headquarters
(500 Club and Town & Country Motel).
- 12. Lee’s role in the kill-Castro portion of the project was to transport the bio-weapon into Cuba. The radio
debates and film clips of Oswald’s leafleting were arranged by Ochsner (at Oswald’s request) to make Oswald
appear to be an authentic defector so he could get into Cuba more easily.
- 13. Judyth heard the subject of assassinating JFK was discussed at various times by various people, including
Ferrie, Sherman and Oswald. Part of the logic that was explained to Judyth was that they had to hurry up and
kill Castro with their bio-weapon before Ochsner’s friend ran out of patience and decided to kill Kennedy instead.
- 14. After testing their bio-weapon on dozens of monkeys, they arranged to test it on a human “volunteer,” a
convict brought from Angola State Penitentiary to the Jackson State Mental Hospital in rural Louisiana for that
purpose. The weapon was successful. The man died in 28 days as a result.
- 15. Judyth wrote a letter to Dr. Ochsner protesting the use of an unwitting human in their bio-weapon test and
delivered it to his secretary.[13] Upon seeing the letter, Ochsner exploded in anger and threatened both Judyth
and Lee. Everything fell apart for Judyth as a result. Ochsner reneged on his offer to place Judyth in Tulane
Medical School. Lee was ordered to Dallas. Judyth went back to Florida with her husband.
- 16. For the next few months, Judyth and Lee stayed in contact by telephone, thanks to access to the Mafia’s
“secret” Miami-to-Las Vegas sports betting lines courtesy of David Ferrie. While the phone company and the
U.S. Government might not have been able to listen to their conversations, the Mafia would have been able to!
- 17. On Wednesday, November 20, 1963, Lee told Judyth that there would be a real attempt to kill President
Kennedy when he visits Dallas on Friday. It is the last time they talked.
For reasons that will be obvious to anyone who reads Ed's work, he was in an ideal position to study Judyth.
Judyth also believes that the bioweapon was used to kill Jack Ruby, which, of course, was his contention at the
time. Neither Ed Haslam nor I has discerned any good reason to doubt Judyth's account and, in my opinion,
no one who reads the chapter archived at http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com/2010/04/ed...rys-monkey.html
or the corresponding chapter in DR. MARY'S MONKEY should have any doubt about the basic accuracy of what
Judyth has been telling us or be unable to appreciate why "60 Minutes" was excited to feature her on the show,
which, so far as I am able to sort out, was killed for political reasons and not for any lack of faith in her story.
[quote name='Michael Hogan' post='189383' date='Apr 10 2010, 08:44 PM']Jim, thank you for apologizing. You've proven true to your word to me the other day:
[quote name='James H. Fetzer' post='189132' date='Apr 7 2010, 12:43 PM']
When I think I may have made a mistake, I check it and, if so, I correct it![/quote]
I prepared this response before I read your last post. It might be a little testy, but I've decided to leave it as written.When I think I may have made a mistake, I check it and, if so, I correct it![/quote]
Judyth Baker writes:
Quote:"Shackelford's treatment of me had nothing to do with his massive knowledge of the case. In addition, I did not
know Haslam was writing another book. It came as a complete surprise, or otherwise I would have warned
him about the unauthorized status of the book.
Because he kept asking questions, I knew that inaccuracies in the book of concern did not affect what Haslam
learned from me. I never told Haslam why I withdrew the book, because I did not want him to have any
prejudice against Mr. Shackelford.
My personal feelings were not as important as Shackelford's input to Haslam.
.....I hope this explains why I did not bring up why the book was withdrawn to Haslam. I don't think he ever knew
that Shackelford was involved in the matter. I don't know."
Quote:"Judyth has been kind enough to corroborate (and correct) my version of her account."
[quote name='James H. Fetzer' post='189327' date='Apr 9 2010, 05:15 PM']This is a very odd report. At this point in time, Ed Haslam has interviewed
Judyth for around 1,000 hours and has interrogated her more extensively
than anyone else alive, so far as I am able to ascertain.
He has told me that he does not want to take on extensive discussion about Judyth
until her book, ME & LEE, has appeared, no doubt to have a basic reference
work to which interested parties can be directed.[/quote]
To recap: Ed Haslam was writing a book wherein Judyth Baker was going to play a major role: his witness.Judyth for around 1,000 hours and has interrogated her more extensively
than anyone else alive, so far as I am able to ascertain.
He has told me that he does not want to take on extensive discussion about Judyth
until her book, ME & LEE, has appeared, no doubt to have a basic reference
work to which interested parties can be directed.[/quote]
He was able to get her to corroborate and correct his version of her story without letting her in on it.
Haslam was putting his personal and professional neck of credibility on the line in support of Judyth Baker,
yet he kept his book secret ("a complete surprise") from her during the many hours they talked. Haslam
and Baker had been talking for a period lasting more than five years. Okay, seems plausible.
And Judyth Baker, during all these hours spent talking with Ed Haslam, (who was sympathetic, supportive
and empathetic to her and her cause) decided not to tell Haslam about the shortcomings contained in her book
for the reasons she has just given.
I'm sure her failure to level with Haslam on such an important matter did wonders for her credibility with him..
After all, he had referred his readers to her book in order to make up their minds whether or not to believe Judyth's story.
Whatever he thought, he was now boxed in. He has continued to say he believes Judyth Baker "as a person."
His endorsement of the Lee Harvey Oswald love story angle seems tepid, at best.
As Haslam writes: "From my perspective, I was particularly concerned that 60M could easily discredit her story as
a means of discrediting my story. Such were my initial thoughts."
Maybe he still harbors similar concerns today.
Maybe that is why Haslam, as Jim relates, "does not want to take on extensive discussion about Judyth until her book,
Me & Lee, has appeared, no doubt to have a basic reference work to which interested parties can be directed."
No doubt.
Jim, I would like to revisit my question about Haslam's account of meeting a Judy Vary Baker as detailed in his Chapter 13.
[quote name='Michael Hogan' post='189337' date='Apr 10 2010, 04:41 AM']Why do you think Haslam (living in New Orlean during the middle of the Garrison investigation)
showed so little interest in meeting with someone that said she knew Lee Harvey Oswald?[/quote]
This encounter is one of the biggest blockbusters in Dr Mary's Monkey. Haslam allows that "the 1972 incident showed so little interest in meeting with someone that said she knew Lee Harvey Oswald?[/quote]
caused confusion and distrust among the 60M team. Their only evidence was my word and my memory."
I find it strange that Haslam makes no mention of trying to find his girlfriend at the time, or any of the people
that were at that party (including Baker's husband) to verify his story. Sixty Minutes certainly had the investigative
wherewithal to do that, it would seem. If such a witness would have be found, you might not be having to argue Judyth's case today.
I shake my head that Haslam doesn't even mention any attempts to find these witnesses.
As I'm sure you're aware, Haslam references his interview with Jim Marrs. It is available on YouTube and the part about his
1972 encounter with a Judyth Vary Baker begins at the 42 minute mark. He talks of meeting Baker's husband (talked to him extensively)
and baby. He talks about being "suspicious of this party" to begin with. Warning light number two to Haslam was this lady's failure to
know of his father, who was well-known at Tulane. He had the impression that she might have been connected to the CIA,
because of her steadfast refusal to discuss details of her work. None of these details made his book.
Listen to his account for yourself and tell me how convincing Haslam is concerning his refusal to talk to JVB at the party.
How convincing is his account of declining to meet her privately? Why did he not express the slightest regret in his decision?
I can't help it, I find his description of this seminally important event lacking in much detail. Haslam's reason
for not meeting with a woman that wanted to discuss the Garrison investigation and was a "good buddy" of Lee Harvey Owald
(Although Haslam used this term to Marrs, he chose not use it in his book) are just not convincing to me.
When asked by Jim Marrs to assess Judyth Baker's credibility, Haslam says that he was not concerned "with which finger
did Lee Oswald wear his wedding ring on?" He said he "tried to look at her as a person and did she make sense to him as a person?"
He thinks she is is the "genuine article."
There are other subtle differences in Haslam's accounts. This is one that perplexes me, and I would like your take:
As Haslam tells it to Marrs, when the documents from 60 Minutes arrived there was a phone number for Judyth Baker
and, after recognizing the name, he called her immediately, expecting her to be the same woman he met in 1972.
Haslam was "surprised" to find out this Judyth Baker did not live in New Orleans in 1972.
In Dr. Mary's Monkey, Haslam makes no mention of this phone call. In fact, in the book Haslam makes it clear
that he contacted Judyth Baker directly, "after the 60M debacle." He implies that by that time he had already figured out
they could not be the same woman.
Why does Haslam give two different accounts of how he first encountered the "real" Judyth Baker? What am I not seeing?
I am not implying anything about Ed Haslam, other than I don't understand some of his claims.
After this exchange, it is my intention to withdraw from this thread. What I think about the Judyth Baker story is of little significance
to anyone other than myself. I intend to read her book when it comes out.
Again Jim, I appreciate your apology.
[/quote]