26-04-2010, 12:06 AM
Dean,
You say to me, "I am very open and will read or listen to anything you have to say Jim", yet from the answers to my questions, it does not appear to me that you are open or willing to read or listen to my suggestions. At least five of your answers below were "No", where several others also seem to fit. You appear to be taking your cues from Junkkarinen and Viklund, whom I regard as completely unreliable. Jack and Barb may be new BFFs, but it baffles me as to why you say you are listening to me or will read what I suggest when you are not. How many times do I have to recommend reading Ed Haslam, DR. MARY'S MONKEY? I have had extensive dealings with Judyth and I assure you she is not a fake. She was in New Orleans, she knew Lee Oswald, and she worked with David Ferrie and Mary Sherman. I cannot understand why you think you can tell who is or is not a phony without doing any research. I can tell you why I am skeptical of James Files, but I doubt that you have any good reasons to be skeptical of Judyth. The persons you are listening to and following are Junkkarinen and Viklund. And why in the world would you think that you know more about Judyth than I when I have had extensive contact with her and you have not? You don't seem to be thinking for yourself.
Jim
QUOTE (Dean Hagerman @ Apr 19 2010, 01:40 AM)
My answers in Bold
QUOTE (James H. Fetzer @ Apr 19 2010, 12:54 AM)
Dean,
If I were not convinced she is genuine, I would not be here defending her.
More than one of your posts has bothered me. I ask the following questions:
(1) Have you ever actually met or spoken with Judyth Vary Baker?
No, I have through Email from you asked her a question and got a reply, I would talk to Judyth, but as I told you Jim I do not want to talk to a woman I do not know about personal issues that are sensitive, I will leave it at that you know what im talking about. If Judyth is willing to talk to me I am willing to read and reply to her
(2) Have you ever watched Nigel Turner's "The Love Affair"?
I have watched it 10+ times, I love TMWKK and "The Love Affair" is my least favorite segment, followed very closly by French assassins
(3) Have you read MARY, FERRIE, AND THE MONEY VIRUS?
No
(4) Have you read Ed Haslam's DR. MARY'S MONKEY?
No
(5) Have you read my blog about Judyth Vary Baker?
Yes
(6) Have you listened to my 1-hour Haslem interview?
No
(7) Have you read my blog about DR. MARY'S MONKEY?
No
(8) Have you listened to Ed's 4-hour C2C interview?
No
(9) Are your opinions actually based upon research?
I have not researched any of Judyth's claims myself, however I have looked at alot of Barbs research on Judyth and what Barb has shown me is enough, I believe her research alone shuts down Judyth IMO
(10) What is the value of opinions not based on research?
I would say pretty high because most of us researchers have been around long enough to spot fakes, I dont need hard research to say that the stories Judyth Baker and James Files tell are false.
[quote name='Dean Hagerman' post='190127' date='Apr 19 2010, 05:47 PM']
Jim my mind has been changed 100s of times on assassination issues and theories
Please tell me what this new relevant evidence is, because all I have seen in this thread from Judyth is old news that has been debunked or is just not to be believed
I am very open and will read or listen to anything you have to say Jim
[quote name='James H. Fetzer' post='190118' date='Apr 19 2010, 04:59 PM']
Well, Dean, God knows I wouldn't want your mind to be changed by anything like new relevant evidence! What is this forum coming to?
Click to flip through ME &LEE: http://www.trineday.com/paypal_store/produ...12-flip-320.gif
For more on ME & LEE, see http://www.trineday.com/paypal_store/produ...+Lee/index.html
[quote name='Dean Hagerman' post='190102' date='Apr 19 2010, 03:44 PM']
Well Michael thanks for the offer but you know as well as I do that you will be keeping your extra copy of H&L
Unless Dr Mary's Monkey contains pictures of Judyth and LHO embracing each other Im positive it will not change my mind
I want to read it to try and see were Jim is coming from
[quote name='Michael Hogan' post='190085' date='Apr 19 2010, 01:25 PM']
[quote name='Dean Hagerman' post='190051' date='Apr 18 2010, 11:54 PM']
.....The reason I have not replied about any of the posts about Armstrong is because I have not read his book. I am very upset with myself for not buying it when it came out, and my wife will not let me spend the $75.00-100.00 to buy the book. So I can not reply to anything that has to do with "Harvey and Lee" That would be very stupid on my part with out having read the book first
I will purchase Dr Mary's Monkey per your suggestion and read it (as it is much less then H&L)
I will report back with my thoughts on it
The bottom line is that I hate seeing you lose two friends over Judyth, aside from all the other stuff, that is what im really trying to say Jim[/quote]
Dean, if you change your mind about Judyth Baker and come to believe that she and Lee Oswald were
lovers, after reading Dr. Mary's Monkey, I'll be glad to give you my extra copy of Harvey & Lee.
Ed Haslam leaves no doubt that he believes in Judyth Baker as a person, as he puts it. But the actual
evidence he gives in his book for her love relationship with LHO is minimal, certainly nothing that
hasn't already appeared in this thread.
In Dr Mary's Monkey, Haslam urges the readers to make up their own minds. He refers them
to Baker's two volume book, Lee Harvey Oswald. He now admits this account is flawed.
Keep in mind that, according to Judyth Baker, she made the decision not to tell Haslam
that her book was unauthorized by her and contained errors. She would have told him if
she'd had any idea he was writing a book. Yet, according to Haslam, she "corrected and corroborated"
her story that ultimately appeared in his book.
It's these types of accounts that give me a vague unease about the whole thing.
At any rate, Ed Haslam has posted twice on this thread. The way I read it, he is asking members to wait
until Judyth Baker's new book comes out to make up their minds. He concedes there are shortcomings in
her previous accounts. Again, I have no doubt that Haslam believes she had a love affair with Oswald.
He told Jim Marrs in 2003 that this belief stems more from his belief in her as a person than it does
from actual evidence. If you get the chance, listen to that interview on YouTube, beginning at about the
forty-three minute mark.
In my opinion, Haslam has always been more interested in Judyth Baker's role in cancer research than
he has been with her alleged love relationship with Lee Harvey Oswald.
[/quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]
You say to me, "I am very open and will read or listen to anything you have to say Jim", yet from the answers to my questions, it does not appear to me that you are open or willing to read or listen to my suggestions. At least five of your answers below were "No", where several others also seem to fit. You appear to be taking your cues from Junkkarinen and Viklund, whom I regard as completely unreliable. Jack and Barb may be new BFFs, but it baffles me as to why you say you are listening to me or will read what I suggest when you are not. How many times do I have to recommend reading Ed Haslam, DR. MARY'S MONKEY? I have had extensive dealings with Judyth and I assure you she is not a fake. She was in New Orleans, she knew Lee Oswald, and she worked with David Ferrie and Mary Sherman. I cannot understand why you think you can tell who is or is not a phony without doing any research. I can tell you why I am skeptical of James Files, but I doubt that you have any good reasons to be skeptical of Judyth. The persons you are listening to and following are Junkkarinen and Viklund. And why in the world would you think that you know more about Judyth than I when I have had extensive contact with her and you have not? You don't seem to be thinking for yourself.
Jim
QUOTE (Dean Hagerman @ Apr 19 2010, 01:40 AM)
My answers in Bold
QUOTE (James H. Fetzer @ Apr 19 2010, 12:54 AM)
Dean,
If I were not convinced she is genuine, I would not be here defending her.
More than one of your posts has bothered me. I ask the following questions:
(1) Have you ever actually met or spoken with Judyth Vary Baker?
No, I have through Email from you asked her a question and got a reply, I would talk to Judyth, but as I told you Jim I do not want to talk to a woman I do not know about personal issues that are sensitive, I will leave it at that you know what im talking about. If Judyth is willing to talk to me I am willing to read and reply to her
(2) Have you ever watched Nigel Turner's "The Love Affair"?
I have watched it 10+ times, I love TMWKK and "The Love Affair" is my least favorite segment, followed very closly by French assassins
(3) Have you read MARY, FERRIE, AND THE MONEY VIRUS?
No
(4) Have you read Ed Haslam's DR. MARY'S MONKEY?
No
(5) Have you read my blog about Judyth Vary Baker?
Yes
(6) Have you listened to my 1-hour Haslem interview?
No
(7) Have you read my blog about DR. MARY'S MONKEY?
No
(8) Have you listened to Ed's 4-hour C2C interview?
No
(9) Are your opinions actually based upon research?
I have not researched any of Judyth's claims myself, however I have looked at alot of Barbs research on Judyth and what Barb has shown me is enough, I believe her research alone shuts down Judyth IMO
(10) What is the value of opinions not based on research?
I would say pretty high because most of us researchers have been around long enough to spot fakes, I dont need hard research to say that the stories Judyth Baker and James Files tell are false.
[quote name='Dean Hagerman' post='190127' date='Apr 19 2010, 05:47 PM']
Jim my mind has been changed 100s of times on assassination issues and theories
Please tell me what this new relevant evidence is, because all I have seen in this thread from Judyth is old news that has been debunked or is just not to be believed
I am very open and will read or listen to anything you have to say Jim
[quote name='James H. Fetzer' post='190118' date='Apr 19 2010, 04:59 PM']
Well, Dean, God knows I wouldn't want your mind to be changed by anything like new relevant evidence! What is this forum coming to?
Click to flip through ME &LEE: http://www.trineday.com/paypal_store/produ...12-flip-320.gif
For more on ME & LEE, see http://www.trineday.com/paypal_store/produ...+Lee/index.html
[quote name='Dean Hagerman' post='190102' date='Apr 19 2010, 03:44 PM']
Well Michael thanks for the offer but you know as well as I do that you will be keeping your extra copy of H&L
Unless Dr Mary's Monkey contains pictures of Judyth and LHO embracing each other Im positive it will not change my mind
I want to read it to try and see were Jim is coming from
[quote name='Michael Hogan' post='190085' date='Apr 19 2010, 01:25 PM']
[quote name='Dean Hagerman' post='190051' date='Apr 18 2010, 11:54 PM']
.....The reason I have not replied about any of the posts about Armstrong is because I have not read his book. I am very upset with myself for not buying it when it came out, and my wife will not let me spend the $75.00-100.00 to buy the book. So I can not reply to anything that has to do with "Harvey and Lee" That would be very stupid on my part with out having read the book first
I will purchase Dr Mary's Monkey per your suggestion and read it (as it is much less then H&L)
I will report back with my thoughts on it
The bottom line is that I hate seeing you lose two friends over Judyth, aside from all the other stuff, that is what im really trying to say Jim[/quote]
Dean, if you change your mind about Judyth Baker and come to believe that she and Lee Oswald were
lovers, after reading Dr. Mary's Monkey, I'll be glad to give you my extra copy of Harvey & Lee.
Ed Haslam leaves no doubt that he believes in Judyth Baker as a person, as he puts it. But the actual
evidence he gives in his book for her love relationship with LHO is minimal, certainly nothing that
hasn't already appeared in this thread.
In Dr Mary's Monkey, Haslam urges the readers to make up their own minds. He refers them
to Baker's two volume book, Lee Harvey Oswald. He now admits this account is flawed.
Keep in mind that, according to Judyth Baker, she made the decision not to tell Haslam
that her book was unauthorized by her and contained errors. She would have told him if
she'd had any idea he was writing a book. Yet, according to Haslam, she "corrected and corroborated"
her story that ultimately appeared in his book.
It's these types of accounts that give me a vague unease about the whole thing.
At any rate, Ed Haslam has posted twice on this thread. The way I read it, he is asking members to wait
until Judyth Baker's new book comes out to make up their minds. He concedes there are shortcomings in
her previous accounts. Again, I have no doubt that Haslam believes she had a love affair with Oswald.
He told Jim Marrs in 2003 that this belief stems more from his belief in her as a person than it does
from actual evidence. If you get the chance, listen to that interview on YouTube, beginning at about the
forty-three minute mark.
In my opinion, Haslam has always been more interested in Judyth Baker's role in cancer research than
he has been with her alleged love relationship with Lee Harvey Oswald.
[quote name='Edward Haslam' post='185372' date='Mar 2 2010, 12:48 AM']Dear Forum Members,
Next, I can't help but think that this discussion of Judyth Vary Baker will be more productive once the members have read her soon-to-be-released book ME AND LEE, which will be her official autobiographical portrait of how her quest to find a cure for cancer lead her to work as a secretary at the Reily Coffee Company in New Orleans in the summer of 1963 under the direction of an ex-FBI agent and at the exact same time that Lee Oswald worked there. Trine Day Press has put a great deal of effort into making sure that the documents are well presented and that her story is properly edited for a thoughtful read by those who really want to hear her tale. Like many, I wish such a book had been available many years earlier. Unfortunately, it was not.
I do hope that this forum's members, which are among the best informed JFK assassination researchers engaged in public debate, will read this important book with an open mind. And I look forward to their discussion about it, once they do.
Until then, all involved should realize that what is being discussed here is based primarily upon an incomplete recounting of her story and illuminated by a constellation of malignant perceptions which emerged over years of inadequate, and occasionally inappropriate, representations. What you will read is the personal story of a witness to an important, albeit infamous, chapter of our history - one which deserves a fair hearing, a full review of the evidence, and the benefit of solid analysis. Once that happens, I look forward to reading your thoughts about it.
My Best to all,
Ed Haslam
author of DR. MARY'S MONKEY[/quote]
[quote name='Edward Haslam' post='185549' date='Mar 3 2010, 09:55 AM']Jack,
Thanks for your questions. I have great admiration for the work that you have done over the years. I will say that I am confident that if you read ME AND LEE with the same "close scrutiny" that you have used to study all those photos, then you will come to reasonable answers... whatever they may be. And I will be interested to hear your thought about them when you do.
From my own experience, I will say that, despite the considerable contact that I had with Judyth since Nov. 2000 and all of the other previous attempts by others to recount her tale, I did not understand "the flow" of her story. While I did think that certain "landmarks" grounded her story (such as the W2 form from Reily Coffee and her time at Roswell Park Cancer Institute), there was still a forest of unanswered questions for me. I found much of her tale "disconnected" and her retelling of it "confusing," particularly on important issues like how she became involved with people like Dr. Alton Ochsner and the erratic path of her college career. I queried Judyth relentlessly about these issues, the gaps in the story, and many other issues. There were many tense moments during this process, and she became frustrated with me at times. But I finally realized this was because there were things that she was reluctant to discuss, some for personal reasons. This process took more time than I anticipated, but eventually what I found was that the key to understanding her New Orleans activities lies in the years before she ever arrived in New Orleans and before she ever met Lee Oswald. I finally realized that understanding what made young "Judy Vary" tick was as important as anything we have heard to date about her romance with Lee Oswald. She was the resource that they needed to create the bio-weapon secretly, and there is nothing glorious or glamorous about killing baby mice, amputating their tumors and grinding them up in a blender. In fact, she became disgusted with what she was doing and realized that she had been lead down the path of evil by those she trusted. In the final analysis, I consider Judyth "a witness," not "a researcher," and I think that her story must be understood in that light. But the questions remain: What insights can we gain from the recollections of this witness? And do they help us understand what happened in Dallas?
[size=12] Overall, I will say that my view of her Judyth shifted as I read ME AND LEE. The portrait is paints of her is not particularly flattering, but it rings true. And it is a better grounded story than I expected to find. One that makes far more sense than anything I had heard from earlier versions. One whose pieces fit together better than I had expected. One that I hope that you (and the others seriously concerned about this subject) will read with an open mind.
[/size]
[size=12] My Best,
[/size]
[size=12] Ed Haslam
[/size][/quote]
[/quote]Next, I can't help but think that this discussion of Judyth Vary Baker will be more productive once the members have read her soon-to-be-released book ME AND LEE, which will be her official autobiographical portrait of how her quest to find a cure for cancer lead her to work as a secretary at the Reily Coffee Company in New Orleans in the summer of 1963 under the direction of an ex-FBI agent and at the exact same time that Lee Oswald worked there. Trine Day Press has put a great deal of effort into making sure that the documents are well presented and that her story is properly edited for a thoughtful read by those who really want to hear her tale. Like many, I wish such a book had been available many years earlier. Unfortunately, it was not.
I do hope that this forum's members, which are among the best informed JFK assassination researchers engaged in public debate, will read this important book with an open mind. And I look forward to their discussion about it, once they do.
Until then, all involved should realize that what is being discussed here is based primarily upon an incomplete recounting of her story and illuminated by a constellation of malignant perceptions which emerged over years of inadequate, and occasionally inappropriate, representations. What you will read is the personal story of a witness to an important, albeit infamous, chapter of our history - one which deserves a fair hearing, a full review of the evidence, and the benefit of solid analysis. Once that happens, I look forward to reading your thoughts about it.
My Best to all,
Ed Haslam
author of DR. MARY'S MONKEY[/quote]
[quote name='Edward Haslam' post='185549' date='Mar 3 2010, 09:55 AM']Jack,
Thanks for your questions. I have great admiration for the work that you have done over the years. I will say that I am confident that if you read ME AND LEE with the same "close scrutiny" that you have used to study all those photos, then you will come to reasonable answers... whatever they may be. And I will be interested to hear your thought about them when you do.
From my own experience, I will say that, despite the considerable contact that I had with Judyth since Nov. 2000 and all of the other previous attempts by others to recount her tale, I did not understand "the flow" of her story. While I did think that certain "landmarks" grounded her story (such as the W2 form from Reily Coffee and her time at Roswell Park Cancer Institute), there was still a forest of unanswered questions for me. I found much of her tale "disconnected" and her retelling of it "confusing," particularly on important issues like how she became involved with people like Dr. Alton Ochsner and the erratic path of her college career. I queried Judyth relentlessly about these issues, the gaps in the story, and many other issues. There were many tense moments during this process, and she became frustrated with me at times. But I finally realized this was because there were things that she was reluctant to discuss, some for personal reasons. This process took more time than I anticipated, but eventually what I found was that the key to understanding her New Orleans activities lies in the years before she ever arrived in New Orleans and before she ever met Lee Oswald. I finally realized that understanding what made young "Judy Vary" tick was as important as anything we have heard to date about her romance with Lee Oswald. She was the resource that they needed to create the bio-weapon secretly, and there is nothing glorious or glamorous about killing baby mice, amputating their tumors and grinding them up in a blender. In fact, she became disgusted with what she was doing and realized that she had been lead down the path of evil by those she trusted. In the final analysis, I consider Judyth "a witness," not "a researcher," and I think that her story must be understood in that light. But the questions remain: What insights can we gain from the recollections of this witness? And do they help us understand what happened in Dallas?
[size=12] Overall, I will say that my view of her Judyth shifted as I read ME AND LEE. The portrait is paints of her is not particularly flattering, but it rings true. And it is a better grounded story than I expected to find. One that makes far more sense than anything I had heard from earlier versions. One whose pieces fit together better than I had expected. One that I hope that you (and the others seriously concerned about this subject) will read with an open mind.
[/size]
[size=12] My Best,
[/size]
[size=12] Ed Haslam
[/size][/quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]