Michael Piper and Final Judgment

[Albert Doyle]

Oy... tell you what Albert... how about YOU stick to telling us what YOU think and I'll stick to explaining my position myself... :thumbsup:

So far your responses to my asking for YOUR idea of proof has yet to produce a single citation or example that others reading this thread could call SUPPORTING DOCUMENTATION. [/COLOR]

The phony pretense is thick here. It's obvious that you need to impose this Von Peinian you-answer-your-material-I'll answer-mine because you can't give an honest answer to the credible questions I asked. Your phony supporting documentation demand is just your dishonest way of side-stepping your obvious inability to honestly answer what was shown. The evidence is documented enough. The only reason you are asking for further documentation is because you can't honestly answer the documentation that was shown.

JFK "prohibited nuclear weapon development by Israel" - WHERE ON EARTH DO YOU GET THIS BS ALBERT? JFK did no such thing...
So during this prohibition, and being lied to by BG, he sells Hawks to Israel...

From the entire accurate history you are flagrantly ignoring. You are trying to force dishonest semantic tricks here which shows you are not honestly looking for the truth. The entire process of JFK's interactions with Ben-Gurion was the deterring of nuclear weapon development by Israel. Typical of Israel involvement deniers you've jumped the shark here and are offering suggestions that are clearly in contempt of the known and acknowledged history. The only reason this history isn't more openly documented is because of the dirty intrigue that went on around it and how it was related to JFK's death. You got a real problem here because in your zeal to deny this by aggressively going on the offensive and trying to question otherwise known elements of the event you still haven't adequately explained what Echevarria meant?

Your reference to the Hawk missile sales once again highlights your desperation to assert disingenuous context. Kennedy offered the Hawk missiles in order to placate Israeli politics on both sides of the Atlantic. Your reference is wholly dishonest because it once again offers one of your strawman specialties suggesting that if Kennedy forbade nuclear weapons he would also forbid conventional missiles. This is yet another prime example of the ridiculousness of what you offer that you always fail to account for when exposed. The correct context of the Hawk sales was that Kennedy was trying to satisfy support for Israel's defense for all lobbies concerned in order to take pressure off his demand for nuclear restriction. What you are doing is like the right-wingers who try to misquote Kennedy and paint him as a Cold War war hawk. You are in contempt of not only everything shown in The Unspeakable but also everything shown in sources about the Ben-Gurion conflict.

The answer to your miserable question is that we are getting it from all accurate sources of the event. You're just seeking excuses.

And if we find that Dimona was not producing weapons grade product... yet all the while BG lying about that capability with the French assisting them along the way
how again is JFK "PROHIBITING" anything?

Scientists Find No Evidence of Nuclear Weapons at Dimona Reactor

(October 31, 1962)

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This is a Circular Airgram from the Department of State to certain posts concerning the visit by two U.S. scientists to the Israeli nuclear reactor at Dimona.

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Reftel (sent all addressees except Algiers) authorized addressees inform governments to which accredited of results unpublicized visit in spring 1961 by two qualified scientists to Israel reactor site at Dimona. According to observations then reported, Dimona project appeared of type and magnitude described publicly by Israel leaders (e.g., research reactor with 24 megawatt capacity). While they also concluded reactor upon completion in two or three years would produce small quantities plutonium as do others of comparable size and character, our experts found no evidence Israelis preparing produce weapons. We noted, accordingly, that observations US scientists tended support public and private assurances re peaceful intent Dimona project. We further noted that highest levels this government opposed to proliferation nuclear weapons production capabilities and had so informed Israel.

This is just squirming contempt for what has already been shown. Your speculative arguments are in contempt of the already established record that was already shown in this thread. It is known fact that Angleton snuck nuclear materiel behind JFK's back and that Israel had bricked-over the elevator that led to the processing facility at Dimona when Kennedy's inspectors arrived. Despite being shown this already you ignore it and return with your contemptuous speculative filibuster. It's obvious Israel bricked-over that level of Dimona because it was developing nuclear weapons against Kennedy's wishes. Yet you have abject hubris to see this and counter with a report that the inspectors did not see any signs of nuclear development as if you were presenting a sincere argument. You have real balls. How could they see any signs if the Israelis constructed a completely new bogus facility and took them to it? Or bricked-over the level where they were doing the work? Not very bright (or honest).

JFK letter to Eshkol re Dimona:

"You are aware, I am sure, of the exchanges which I had with Prime Minister
Ben-Gurion concerning American visits to Israel's nuclear facility at Dimona.
Most recently, the Prime Minister wrote to me on May 27. His words reflected a
most intense personal consideration of a problem that I know is not easy for
your Government, as it is not for mine. We welcomed the former Prime Minister's
strong reaffirmation that Dimona will be devoted exclusively to peaceful
purposes and the reaffirmation also of Israel's willingness to permit periodic
visits to Dimona.

On 3 October 1957, France and Israel signed a revised agreement calling for
France to build a 24 MWt reactor (although the cooling systems and waste
facilities were designed to handle three times that power) and, in protocols
that were not committed to paper, a chemical reprocessing plant. This complex
was constructed in secret, and outside the IAEA inspection regime, by French and
Israeli technicians at Dimona, in the Negev desert under the leadership of Col.
Manes Pratt of the IDF Ordinance Corps.

Although the United States government did not encourage or approve of the Israeli nuclear program, it also did nothing to stop it. Walworth Barbour, US ambassador to Israel from 1961-73, the bomb program's crucial years, primarily saw his job as being to insulate the President from facts which might compel him to act on the nuclear issue, alledgedly saying at one point that "The President did not send me there to give him problems. He does not want to be told any bad news." After the 1967 war, Barbour even put a stop to military attachés' intelligence collection efforts around Dimona. Even when Barbour did authorize forwarding information, as he did in 1966 when embassy staff learned that Israel was beginning to put nuclear warheads in missiles, the message seemed to disappear into the bureaucracy and was never acted upon

As per above, that's absolute dishonest bullshit. You are making the exact same arguments that the "Kennedy escalated VietNam" deniers make against the obvious facts. That Kennedy was cool with VietNam, didn't really prevent it, and in the end approved of escalation with NSAM 273. You know, there's no documentation for what was written in The Unspeakable and Douglass got it all wrong.


You're really losing this debate.


(Could you turn off the color. I don't know how to edit it out)