29-03-2010, 01:36 AM
JVB has made several postings scoffing at the notion of a FALSE DEFECTOR PROGRAM, and that
Harvey was a part of it.
James J. Angleton of the CIA was in charge of the defector program. He also managed the Nosenko
affair, in which a Russian "defector" defected to the US, coming to tell that THE KGB HAD NO
OPERATIONAL INTEREST in the defector "Lee Harvey Oswald" (when all indications are that they
were immediately aware of the "false defector" and placed him under full time surveillance and perhaps
more). The HSCA was extremely interested in Nosenko.
At the time of Nosenko's defection, the CIA split into 2 factions...pro-Nosenko and anti-Nosenko. Angleton
believed that Nosenko himself was a false defector, and had him placed in solitary confinement for
several years where he underwent "enhanced interrogation" to "break him". Nosenko could have
potentially exposed Angleton's program, and Angleton wanted to know whether the KGB had substituted
a doppelganger for his false defector. The KGB's Nosenko operation put them in the position of "protesting
too much" to distance the Soviet Union from the assassination.
The question was WHETHER THE LHO WHO RETURNED FROM RUSSIA WAS THE SAME ONE
WHO DEFECTED. Either way, it does NOT materially affect the Harvey and Lee story, but adds an EXTRA
dimension. Either way, it is the one point on which I do not fully agree with Armstrong. I have always
believed that the LHO who returned from Russia was NOT the same LHO who defected. I have always
believed that the Soviets replaced the original defector with one of their own. There is much evidence
to support this. John decided NOT to include this possibility (though he was aware of it) in his book for
several reasons:
1. There was NO documentation for the KGB doing this. John wrote nothing without documentation.
2. A whole book would be needed devoted only to this portion, and he did not have space or time.
3. Even if the original defector was replaced by the KGB, it does not negate the Lee & Harvey documentation;
it only means that someone else was substituted for the original Harvey.
4. It would complicate the story of the original false defector by adding that a false defector had been
replaced by a "double agent"...so was he working for the CIA or the KGB? Since no documentation exists,
this would make the story impossible to tell without speculation and years more of research. He decided
to put his book to bed with only what he could DOCUMENT, with no distracting speculation. I agreed
with his decision...though we both recognized that there perhaps was much more to the story. On the
same grounds, he decided not to do a chapter on Donald O. Norton...because it involved speculation
which, though documented, was not proof. He threw out at least a year of research for lack of TWO SOURCES
of documentation.
If the KGB was interested enough in the false defection to send Nosenko to say that the Soviets were
not interested in LHO, this aspect of the defection is worthy of investigation.
In this thread I will attempt to document some of the evidence that the LHO in Russia was not the same
one who defected. However, this does not mean that the original defector was not the same one who
returned. It is a very confusing story which is unlikely to be conclusive. There are NO records of
what the KGB did concerning LHO's time in Minsk.
I will start with the Ziger sisters. Their father was head of the radio factory in Minsk where LHO
worked. Mr. Ziger acted as an overseer of LHO, and he visited the Ziger home frequently, becoming
well acquainted with Mr. and Mrs. Ziger and their two daughters. John Armstrong tracked down
the Ziger sisters, by then living in Argentina. John flew to Argentina to interview them about their
remembrances of LHO. Since they spoke only Russian and Spanish, he hired an interpreter to
help with the interview. He found many interesting things, but perhaps the most interesting was
that the LHO that they knew was VERY SHORT, perhaps about 5'2"! This was very puzzling since
the defector was 5'9" and LHO was once listed in Marine records as 5'11". A photo of the Zigers
with "Lee" shows a very short person. There are other conflicting photos. The possibility exists
that the KGB furnished or tampered with ALL photos of the Russian period. John decided that
he could not depend solely on the word of the Ziger sisters, since no other documentation supported
their stories. He decided correctly that he could not depend solely on photos of dubious provenance
to back up the story told by the sisters. So all of the information provided by the Zigers is not in the book.
I will start with a clipping which John obtained from the Ziger sisters in an Argentina newspaper.
I will follow with other photos from the Russian period which strongly suggest that the LHO
who was in Russia was neither Harvey or Lee.
Jack
Harvey was a part of it.
James J. Angleton of the CIA was in charge of the defector program. He also managed the Nosenko
affair, in which a Russian "defector" defected to the US, coming to tell that THE KGB HAD NO
OPERATIONAL INTEREST in the defector "Lee Harvey Oswald" (when all indications are that they
were immediately aware of the "false defector" and placed him under full time surveillance and perhaps
more). The HSCA was extremely interested in Nosenko.
At the time of Nosenko's defection, the CIA split into 2 factions...pro-Nosenko and anti-Nosenko. Angleton
believed that Nosenko himself was a false defector, and had him placed in solitary confinement for
several years where he underwent "enhanced interrogation" to "break him". Nosenko could have
potentially exposed Angleton's program, and Angleton wanted to know whether the KGB had substituted
a doppelganger for his false defector. The KGB's Nosenko operation put them in the position of "protesting
too much" to distance the Soviet Union from the assassination.
The question was WHETHER THE LHO WHO RETURNED FROM RUSSIA WAS THE SAME ONE
WHO DEFECTED. Either way, it does NOT materially affect the Harvey and Lee story, but adds an EXTRA
dimension. Either way, it is the one point on which I do not fully agree with Armstrong. I have always
believed that the LHO who returned from Russia was NOT the same LHO who defected. I have always
believed that the Soviets replaced the original defector with one of their own. There is much evidence
to support this. John decided NOT to include this possibility (though he was aware of it) in his book for
several reasons:
1. There was NO documentation for the KGB doing this. John wrote nothing without documentation.
2. A whole book would be needed devoted only to this portion, and he did not have space or time.
3. Even if the original defector was replaced by the KGB, it does not negate the Lee & Harvey documentation;
it only means that someone else was substituted for the original Harvey.
4. It would complicate the story of the original false defector by adding that a false defector had been
replaced by a "double agent"...so was he working for the CIA or the KGB? Since no documentation exists,
this would make the story impossible to tell without speculation and years more of research. He decided
to put his book to bed with only what he could DOCUMENT, with no distracting speculation. I agreed
with his decision...though we both recognized that there perhaps was much more to the story. On the
same grounds, he decided not to do a chapter on Donald O. Norton...because it involved speculation
which, though documented, was not proof. He threw out at least a year of research for lack of TWO SOURCES
of documentation.
If the KGB was interested enough in the false defection to send Nosenko to say that the Soviets were
not interested in LHO, this aspect of the defection is worthy of investigation.
In this thread I will attempt to document some of the evidence that the LHO in Russia was not the same
one who defected. However, this does not mean that the original defector was not the same one who
returned. It is a very confusing story which is unlikely to be conclusive. There are NO records of
what the KGB did concerning LHO's time in Minsk.
I will start with the Ziger sisters. Their father was head of the radio factory in Minsk where LHO
worked. Mr. Ziger acted as an overseer of LHO, and he visited the Ziger home frequently, becoming
well acquainted with Mr. and Mrs. Ziger and their two daughters. John Armstrong tracked down
the Ziger sisters, by then living in Argentina. John flew to Argentina to interview them about their
remembrances of LHO. Since they spoke only Russian and Spanish, he hired an interpreter to
help with the interview. He found many interesting things, but perhaps the most interesting was
that the LHO that they knew was VERY SHORT, perhaps about 5'2"! This was very puzzling since
the defector was 5'9" and LHO was once listed in Marine records as 5'11". A photo of the Zigers
with "Lee" shows a very short person. There are other conflicting photos. The possibility exists
that the KGB furnished or tampered with ALL photos of the Russian period. John decided that
he could not depend solely on the word of the Ziger sisters, since no other documentation supported
their stories. He decided correctly that he could not depend solely on photos of dubious provenance
to back up the story told by the sisters. So all of the information provided by the Zigers is not in the book.
I will start with a clipping which John obtained from the Ziger sisters in an Argentina newspaper.
I will follow with other photos from the Russian period which strongly suggest that the LHO
who was in Russia was neither Harvey or Lee.
Jack