Why was it so shallow, and where did it come from? It's hard to believe that professional mechanics would be using faulty equipment. And to enter at an angle of 45 degrees it would have had to have been fired from a helicopter or a balloon. The only explanation I can think of is a ricochet. But the only obstruction I can see is the tree in front of the TSBD SE 6th floor window. I believe the limo doesn't clear the tree until Z 210. So to strike the tree it would have had to have been fired sometime prior. The president begins reacting to being hit around Z189 but his reaction has always seemed to me to be that of being hit in the throat from the front. He appears to me to be hit from behind at around Z224-25. He has been clutching at his throat, when his chin comes up his elbows flail outward and his body lurches forward. These seem to be the reactions to being struck in the back. However at this point the tree is no longer an obstruction. It's a conundrum, IMO.
29-04-2013, 04:30 AM (This post was last modified: 02-05-2013, 02:15 AM by LR Trotter.)
I recently saw a video that shows a blemish on the signal light frame that indicates it being struck by a bullet. I don't recall the id of the video, but I have to wonder about the possibility of a ricochet bullet that struck JFK in the back. What I do believe, is watching Z Film slow motion does help understanding actions and reactions, but normal speed is needed to understand the timing of actions and reactions. But, if a ricochet and shallow wound, the final destination of the bullet is of course a concern. With the constant pain and treatments of JFK, a delayed to reaction to a shallow wound is quite possible, IMO. So to me, an earlier than reaction wounding of JFK is a reasonable assumption.
LR Trotter Wrote:I recently saw a video that shows a blemish on the signal light frame that indicates it being struck by a bullet. I don't recall the id of the video, but I have to wonder about the possibility of a ricochet bullet that struck JFK in the back. What I do believe, is watching Z Film slow motion does help understanding actions and reactions, but normal speed is needed to understand the timing of actions and reactions. But, if a ricochet and shallow wound, the final destination of the bullet is of course a concern. With the constant pain and treatments of JFK, a delayed to reaction to a shallow wound is quite possible, IMO. So to me, an earlier than reaction wounding of JFK is a reasonable assumption.
:attention:
If someone strikes you in the throat the normal reaction is to tuck your chin and bring your hands up in a reflexive action. The sensation is similar to choking. That is exactly what the president is doing initially. Then if someone were to subsequently strike you in the back between the shoulder blades, the reaction would be to arch away from the blow. The chin would go up and the elbows would splay. Again that is what the president does after he emerges from behind the sign. I don't believe the back wound occurred prior to the throat wound. Where is the this signal light located? is it in line with the Daltex building? That would be the most likely origin of any of the rear shots IMO.
IMHO, I think there were two shooters in the Dal Tex bldg and one on the County Building. One of the Dal Tex shooters hit JFK in the back at the same time as a shot entered his throat. As for the "second back wound", that could have come from the shooter on the County Bldg. I think the County Bldg shooter fired three shots at the limo. He hit JFK in the back (45), he hit Connally in the back and then he hit Connally in the wrist as Connally began to lay in his wife's lap.
I am open to the idea that the "shooters" from the Dal Tex building could have hit JFK twice in the back. One may have been deflected causing a fragment to enter his back in such a shallow manner. Perhaps the Dal Tex shooters were on the third or fourth floor of the building which may have caused the 45 degree angle?
I do not know if anyone has looked at JFK's back brace which may have been high enough on his back to slow the bullet into his back at such a superficial rate. I have always believed that the autopsy photo of his back showed two wounds that were later "drawn" out of the sketches done later.
Additionally, the angle into JFK's back at 45 may have been the bullet fired from the County Building as he lurched over towards Jackie Kennedy after Z225.
Anthony DeFiore Wrote:IMHO, I think there were two shooters in the Dal Tex bldg and one on the County Building. One of the Dal Tex shooters hit JFK in the back at the same time as a shot entered his throat. As for the "second back wound", that could have come from the shooter on the County Bldg. I think the County Bldg shooter fired three shots at the limo. He hit JFK in the back (45), he hit Connally in the back and then he hit Connally in the wrist as Connally began to lay in his wife's lap.
I am open to the idea that the "shooters" from the Dal Tex building could have hit JFK twice in the back. One may have been deflected causing a fragment to enter his back in such a shallow manner. Perhaps the Dal Tex shooters were on the third or fourth floor of the building which may have caused the 45 degree angle?
I do not know if anyone has looked at JFK's back brace which may have been high enough on his back to slow the bullet into his back at such a superficial rate. I have always believed that the autopsy photo of his back showed two wounds that were later "drawn" out of the sketches done later.
Additionally, the angle into JFK's back at 45 may have been the bullet fired from the County Building as he lurched over towards Jackie Kennedy after Z225.
Just thinking....TD
Here is a view from the Daltex window. There appears to be nothing to obstruct a shot at the time the president seems to be hit initially on the Z film, unless the shooter was even more incompetent a shot than LHO. [ATTACH=CONFIG]4690[/ATTACH]A 45 degree angle would be too steep for the top of any of the buildings around the turn at Elm St. Keep in mind the angle from the 6th floor window at the point was less than half that steep. So the question remains, what would cause the shallow wound at a 45 degree angle, other than a deflection from the tree in front of the 6th floor window, and how could it have been deflected at the time the president is first hit? I have always thought that the wound in the throat was the result of a shot from the front. Pat Speer's theory that the shot that hit the president in the lower occiput exited from the throat, makes some sense to me, but it would have had to have happened much later than the first shot.
LR Trotter Wrote:I recently saw a video that shows a blemish on the signal light frame that indicates it being struck by a bullet. I don't recall the id of the video, but I have to wonder about the possibility of a ricochet bullet that struck JFK in the back. What I do believe, is watching Z Film slow motion does help understanding actions and reactions, but normal speed is needed to understand the timing of actions and reactions. But, if a ricochet and shallow wound, the final destination of the bullet is of course a concern. With the constant pain and treatments of JFK, a delayed to reaction to a shallow wound is quite possible, IMO. So to me, an earlier than reaction wounding of JFK is a reasonable assumption.
:attention:
If someone strikes you in the throat the normal reaction is to tuck your chin and bring your hands up in a reflexive action. The sensation is similar to choking. That is exactly what the president is doing initially. Then if someone were to subsequently strike you in the back between the shoulder blades, the reaction would be to arch away from the blow. The chin would go up and the elbows would splay. Again that is what the president does after he emerges from behind the sign. I don't believe the back wound occurred prior to the throat wound. Where is the this signal light located? is it in line with the Daltex building? That would be the most likely origin of any of the rear shots IMO.
The video implied a missed first shot by LHO that may have struck the Elm @ Houston signal light. But, I cannot argue with your response, and while a reaction delay from a shallow back wound is to me a possibility, I cannot imagine a delay reacting to the throat wound. I suppose my question is really what happened to the instrument that caused the shallow back wound. Depending on the location of a possible shooter in the Daltex building, I would think it is a possibility of being in line with a shot from there. Or, maybe a signal shot that was supposed to miss?
LR Trotter Wrote:I recently saw a video that shows a blemish on the signal light frame that indicates it being struck by a bullet. I don't recall the id of the video, but I have to wonder about the possibility of a ricochet bullet that struck JFK in the back. What I do believe, is watching Z Film slow motion does help understanding actions and reactions, but normal speed is needed to understand the timing of actions and reactions. But, if a ricochet and shallow wound, the final destination of the bullet is of course a concern. With the constant pain and treatments of JFK, a delayed to reaction to a shallow wound is quite possible, IMO. So to me, an earlier than reaction wounding of JFK is a reasonable assumption.
:attention:
If someone strikes you in the throat the normal reaction is to tuck your chin and bring your hands up in a reflexive action. The sensation is similar to choking. That is exactly what the president is doing initially. Then if someone were to subsequently strike you in the back between the shoulder blades, the reaction would be to arch away from the blow. The chin would go up and the elbows would splay. Again that is what the president does after he emerges from behind the sign. I don't believe the back wound occurred prior to the throat wound. Where is the this signal light located? is it in line with the Daltex building? That would be the most likely origin of any of the rear shots IMO.
The video implied a missed first shot by LHO that may have struck the Elm @ Houston signal light. But, I cannot argue with your response, and while a reaction delay from a shallow back wound is to me a possibility, I cannot imagine a delay reacting to the throat wound. I suppose my question is really what happened to the instrument that caused the shallow back wound. Depending on the location of a possible shooter in the Daltex building, I would think it is a possibility of being in line with a shot from there. Or, maybe a signal shot that was supposed to miss?
LHO didn't fire any shots that day. Where on the corner of Elm and Houston is this signal light located? There is some evidence of a shot hitting the pavement as the car made it's turn on to Elm street. This would have been the best point for an initial volley of shots when the limo is almost stopped. I have always thought that if any one was firing from the 6th floor window, their primary purpose was as a diversion from the other shooters, who were using suppressers.
Anthony DeFiore Wrote:IMHO, I think there were two shooters in the Dal Tex bldg and one on the County Building. One of the Dal Tex shooters hit JFK in the back at the same time as a shot entered his throat. As for the "second back wound", that could have come from the shooter on the County Bldg. I think the County Bldg shooter fired three shots at the limo. He hit JFK in the back (45), he hit Connally in the back and then he hit Connally in the wrist as Connally began to lay in his wife's lap.
I am open to the idea that the "shooters" from the Dal Tex building could have hit JFK twice in the back. One may have been deflected causing a fragment to enter his back in such a shallow manner. Perhaps the Dal Tex shooters were on the third or fourth floor of the building which may have caused the 45 degree angle?
I do not know if anyone has looked at JFK's back brace which may have been high enough on his back to slow the bullet into his back at such a superficial rate. I have always believed that the autopsy photo of his back showed two wounds that were later "drawn" out of the sketches done later.
Additionally, the angle into JFK's back at 45 may have been the bullet fired from the County Building as he lurched over towards Jackie Kennedy after Z225.
Just thinking....TD
Here is a view from the Daltex window. There appears to be nothing to obstruct a shot at the time the president seems to be hit initially on the Z film, unless the shooter was even more incompetent a shot than LHO. [ATTACH=CONFIG]4690[/ATTACH]A 45 degree angle would be too steep for the top of any of the buildings around the turn at Elm St. Keep in mind the angle from the 6th floor window at the point was less than half that steep. So the question remains, what would cause the shallow wound at a 45 degree angle, other than a deflection from the tree in front of the 6th floor window, and how could it have been deflected at the time the president is first hit? I have always thought that the wound in the throat was the result of a shot from the front. Pat Speer's theory that the shot that hit the president in the lower occiput exited from the throat, makes some sense to me, but it would have had to have happened much later than the first shot.
Good points. No question the angles are debatable. I was researching Horne's work on the autposy, and I believe the only medical person to determine that it was a 45 degree angle was dr. Hume. Nuff said. But my question is that a 45 degree angle can be achieved from the top of the County building at Z224/225 with what I believe is a simultaneous hit from the front in to the throat (accordingly, thru the windshield). Also, I absolutely agree with you on the 6th floor shooters (two from the famous window) were strictly diversionary shots.
WHERE WAS PRESIDENT KENNEDY'S BACK WOUND? by Michael T. Griffith
Surely the entry was too low to exit the throat--
--and the throat was entry per Malcolm Perry et al--
--and the back wound did not transit.
If it's one finger joint deep, how accurate can the angle be determined--it's not as though it's Noguchi & Co. with long wire rods
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4693[/ATTACH]
Have you excluded West Depository; shallowness due to faulty suppressor baffles. . . .
These guys were pros, you think they had faulty equipment? There were several other morgue workers who said in their ARRB depositions that they saw probes going into the back wound at the 45 degree angle, IIRC.
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