David Josephs Wrote:all we have left is the coroborrated word of those who were there... and THEY tell us that JFK was worked upon prior to his official arrival...
DJ
David , could you be more specific here? It's hard to respond to nameless witnesses without citations.
In the meantime, I'd like to point out something. You mentioned before, if I understood you correctly, that Tom Robinson and Ed Reed were witnesses to the enlarging of the head wound at some pre-autopsy event. Well, that's not what Reed said in his ARRB testimony. In fact, he made it clear that all of the X-rays had been taken before Dr. Humes made his first incision into the scalp:
Q. Okay. You've described the sequence of the taking of the X-ray films. Can you tell me whether there were any incisions that were performed on the body between the time of the first X-ray and the time of the last X-ray that you took?
A. As Far as I know,no.
Q. When you brought the last of the X-rays that you had developed back to the morgue, had there been any incisions performed on the body at that time?
A. No.
Q. Were you present during the time of the first incision?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the first incision?
A. The Cranium. The scalp, right here. (p. 57)
As for Tom Robinson, his ARRB interview simply says that he arrived "early in the autopsy" as "gross examination of the head was just beginning".(ARRB MD180) He doesn't say anything about witnessing the taking of X-rays at any point, or being removed while this happened, so it can be logically inferred that he arrived after they were taken. Which means his statement corroborates that of Reed. And neither of them gave testimony that in any way corroborates illicit pre-autopsy enlargement of the head wound.
Mr. SPECTER - What time did the autopsy start approximately?
Commander HUMES - The president's body was received at 25 minutes before 8, and the autopsy
began at approximately 8 p.m. on that evening. You must include the fact that certain X-rays and other examinations were made before the actual beginning of
the routine type autopsy examination.
Mr. SPECTER - Precisely what X-rays or photographs were taken before the dissection started?
Commander HUMES - Some of these X-rays were taken before and some during the examination which, also maintains for the photographs, which were made as the need became apparent to make such. However, before the postmortem examination was begun, anterior, posterior and lateral X-rays of the head, and of the torso were made, and identification type photographs, I recall having been made of the full face of the late President. A photograph showing the massive head wound with the large defect that was associated with it. To my recollection all of these were made before the proceedings began. Several others, approximately 15 to 20 in number, were made in total before we finished the proceedings.
Martin... the first incision in an autopsy is the Y incision... NOT the sawing of the cranium...(below)
Reed's xrays were taken from 6:40 thru 7:45... and we also know that the Joint Carket Bearer team arrived at 8pm...
Where are these "torso" xrays that would have been shown to Finck? They must NOT have been shown since he requested BODY XRAYS as there were none available to him when he arrived...
at 8:30...
Q: You say the X-rays showed no bullet or projectile in that area of the President or in any area?
A(Finck): In the entire body we saw X-rays of, I requested whole body X-rays for the reasons I mentioned, that when I arrived in
Bethesda, there were only X-rays of the head showing fragments due to another bullet wound.
Finck tells us that xrays WERE TAKEN of the body after the Y incision... since he is obviously looking at "entire body x-rays" at some point.
Once they begin working on him, the xrays and photos are now NOT reflective of the condition of the body in Dallas... can't be.
----------
Can you simply address the MDW report on their carrying in the casket at 8pm? and that the "first incision" was the Y incision at 8:15?
Yet Finck arrives at 8:30 and there are NO XRAYS other than the head....
How can Humes be working with the body, taking xrays, at 7:35 if the body is still wrapped in the casket it left from Dallas in...
and TO BE delivered by the official Casket Team 25 minutes later? (and they do note time to the minute... 19:10, 03:50, 13:17, etc....)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4864[/ATTACH]
We ALSO KNOW that Greer/Kellerman/Sibert/O'Neill WHEEL in a casket at 7:17... the casket that was in the hearse...
care to explain that testimony and what the autopsy team was doing in the morgue from 6:30 thru 7:20? and again from 7:20 until 8pm when the body of JFK arrives?
Can you address these TWO entrances? (Forgetting for a minute about the 6:35 one)
Do you know it is impossible to take and develop the ENTIRE COLLECTION OF XRAYS said to be taken... in 25 minutes? and they weren't, as Finck tells us.
So Martin... if the Y incision is done at 8:15... AND there had not yet been xrays of the torso - per Finck - some xrays had to have been taken AFTER the autopsy begins.. against protocol.
Reed is up developing xrays... you don't think anything can occur in that mogue while he's gone? "As far as HE knows" is his answer... not NO.
and Finally... you do not address the known fact that not a single person in Dallas tells us the damage is anything close to what is described at Bethesda...
NOT ONE Martin... they all confirm what Hill tells us... ALL of them.
You are comfortable with the scores of CIVILIANS who say one thing versus the two MILITARY DOCTORS, without autopsy experience, both NOT forensic pathologists as Finck is...
who are basically ORDERED BY THEIR SUPERIORS to ignore this or that, and not perform this or that autopsy protocol...
That's mighty generous of you imo... and then when one reads the likes of Meager and Weisberg among so many others... it is as plain as the nose on your face what was going on...
BY MR. OSER to Dr Finck:
Q: I will ask you the question one more time: Why[B] did you not dissect the track of the bullet wound th[/B]at you have described today and you saw at the time of the autopsy at the time you examined the body? Why? I ask you to answer that question.
A: As I recall I was told not to, but I don't remember by whom.
Q: You were told not to but you don't remember by whom?
A: Right.
Q: Could it have been one of the Admirals or one of the Generals in the room?
A: I don't recall.
======================== AUTOPSY PROTOCOL:
Before dissection starts
The body is washed thoroughly
Samples taken of hair - scalp, face, eyebrows, pubic etc - and labelled and stored
X-raying of body. This may show up things like repeated healed fractures - may be evidence of child abuse, for example.
Dissection
Every pathologist does it differently, but usually make simple incision from neck down to groin, diverting at navel (which is tough and hard to cut through).
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
A few more questions: We know that a shipping casket was delivered at 6:35, David's crew placed it in the ante chamber. Some assume it contained the president's body, but there is no actual verification. Hume says he observed the president's body shortly after that at 6:45 or thereabouts. How did the shipping casket get carried into the morgue proper? I doubt Humes and Boswell did it by themselves. Jenkins and OConnor didn't, they weren't there yet? David's team weren't there either. When did the Ceremonial Coffin get moved from the antechamber to the morgue proper? The FBI men suggest they brought it all the way in immediately on unloading it at 7:17. Were they lying or mistaken? They say they assisted in removing the president body immediately thereafter before being asked to leave for X Rays. Again are they lying or confused? Who placed the presidents body back into the Ceremonial Casket an carried it back to the amabulance? Why believe Osborne's account of a bullet falling out as the body was removed, but ignore the fact that he saw this body fully clothed? OConnor removed the body at around 8:00 but Humes sees it at 6:45? Custer says the X Rays were taken after the Y incision, but also says he saw the Kennedy entourage on his way to develop them. How does one decide who's memory is faulty and who's isn't? The facts are: a shipping casket was delivered at 6:35, a Ceremonial Casket was delivered at 7:17 and a Ceremonial Casket was redeliverd at 8:00. If we can find out who carried these caskets where, and when, we would have a much better idea of what actually occurred. These weren't hard questions to have asked, I am surprised we don't have the answers.
Firstly, let me just say thank you for remaining civil. All too often in these discussions, where two participants have polar opposite views, things can turn hostile very quickly. And that's something I'm keen to avoid. So again, thanks.
Anyway, I'm not exactly sure what point it is you're trying to make with regard to the X-rays. You write:
"Where are these "torso" xrays that would have been shown to Finck? They must NOT have been shown since he requested BODY XRAYS as there were none available to him when he arrived..."
There were X-rays of the torso made before Finck arrived, he said so himself many times. In his report to General Blumberg, Finck stated: "The brain, the heart and the lungs had been removed before my arrival. X ray films of the head and chest had been taken." After he discovered the back wound, and they couldn't locate the bullet, "I SUGGEST X RAY FILMS BE TAKEN...OF THE ENTIRE BODY" (ARRB MD28). He knew that bullets could end up in the damnedest places, that's why Finck suggested entire body X-rays.
As far as I know, you are correct that the first incision SHOULD BE the Y incision, but by Hume's own admission that was not the case in JFK's autopsy. From his ARRB testimony:
Q. But just let me start out first: Where was the first incision made?
A. I believe, of course, the top of the skull to remove the skull plate of the brain. To remove what remained of the calvarium and to approach the removal of the brain.
Q. And was that incision simply of the scalp, or did you need to cut--
A. No, we had to cut some bone as well.
Q. Where did you make the incision on the scalp?
A. Where we usually--in the coronal plane, over the coronal suture. Of course, half of it was already--I mean, you know, it wasn't a neat incision because part of it was over the large defect that was already present. (p. 101)
You write: "Finck tells us that xrays WERE TAKEN of the body after the Y incision... since he is obviously looking at "entire body x-rays" at somepoint.
Once they begin working on him, the xrays and photos are now NOT reflective of the condition of the body in Dallas... can't be."
Yes that's right but, as I noted above, he also tells us that the X-rays of the SKULL were taken BEFORE his arrival. And Humes, Boswell, Reed and everyone else who was there says that this was BEFORE the first incision into the scalp. So the X-rays of the skull are ABSOLUTELY reflective of the state of the head AS IT ARRIVED at Bethesda.
With regard to the multiple caskets, there is no doubt that there is considerable confusion about this and I will not pretend to know what I cannot. I wish I had all the answers regarding entry times and whatnot, but I don't. However, the fact remains that the folks at Bethesda were told, according to petty officer Donald Rebentisch, that two ambulances carrying two caskets were employed one ofthem empty and one with the body of Kennedy in a deliberate charade to slip the President's body into Bethesda Naval Hospital. And his story is corroborated by Bethesda staff dental technician Robert Muma and another of Rebentisch's associates, Paul Neigler. It also seems that their may have been a third casket carrying the body of a deceased soldier. Like I said, there is confusion about what was what regarding the caskets which I guess was the whole point of the security measure. Does that mean that we are free to conclude that there must have been some illicit pre-autopsy surgery? Hell no! There is still no evidence of such. And if, per Horne, Humes was the one doing the deed, why would it be necessary to put Kennedy's body in a different casket anyway?
You write: "and Finally... you do not address the known fact that not a single person in Dallas tells us the damage is anything close to what is described at Bethesda...
NOT ONE Martin... they all confirm what Hill tells us... ALL of them."
I did address this before in post #11. Here's what I wrote:
The great mystery that remains for many is the discrepancy between what was seen at Parkland and what was recorded at Bethesda. To me is this no longer a mystery. Firstly, as your graphic shows, the Parkland doctors described a wound that was in pretty much the area in which the fragment trail onthe X-ray shows the bullet did exit. Some of them thought it was lower down, some of them not. I don't find it surprising or troubling that some thought the wound was further back than it was. I don't agree with everything Pat Speer says but he does some fine work on this on his website.
Secondly, the autopsy report admits that the skull damage extended into the occipital region which actually confirms part of the Parkland doctors' recollections rather than contradicts it. But the autopsy doctors said that the wound was 17 cm, encompassing most of the right side of the head, which is obviously bigger than what was seen at Parkland. What to make of this? Well, I believe that Dr. Gary Aguilar provided the most reasonable explanation years ago in Murder in Dealey Plaza:
"...that the wound was described as larger at autopsy than noted by emergency personnel is not proof it was surgically enlarged. Wounds picked apart during an autopsy examination are often found to be larger than they first appeared to emergency personnel. In Kennedy's case, moreover, Jackie Kennedy testified that she tried to hold the top of JFK's head down while they raced from Dealey Plaza to Parkland Hospital. It is not hard to imagine the possibility that during the time it took the Presidential limousine to get to Parkland Hospital, clot had formed gluing a portion of disrupted scalp down making JFK's skull defect appear smaller to treating surgeons than it later would to autopsy surgeons." (p. 187)
In other words, the Parkland staff only saw the rear most part of the wound which fooled them into thinking it was located only in the rear of the head. This is perfectly reasonable and I have no problem accepting it as a probable explanation. It is INFINITELY more reasonable than claims that the autopsy doctors performed illicit pre-autopsy surgery which, as I said above, was completely unnecessary anyway.
Gordon Gray Wrote:A few more questions: We know that a shipping casket was delivered at 6:35, David's crew placed it in the ante chamber. Some assume it contained the president's body, but there is no actual verification. Hume says he observed the president's body shortly after that at 6:45 or thereabouts. How did the shipping casket get carried into the morgue proper? I doubt Humes and Boswell did it by themselves. Jenkins and OConnor didn't, they weren't there yet? David's team weren't there either. When did the Ceremonial Coffin get moved from the antechamber to the morgue proper? The FBI men suggest they brought it all the way in immediately on unloading it at 7:17. Were they lying or mistaken? They say they assisted in removing the president body immediately thereafter before being asked to leave for X Rays. Again are they lying or confused? Who placed the presidents body back into the Ceremonial Casket an carried it back to the amabulance? Why believe Osborne's account of a bullet falling out as the body was removed, but ignore the fact that he saw this body fully clothed? OConnor removed the body at around 8:00 but Humes sees it at 6:45? Custer says the X Rays were taken after the Y incision, but also says he saw the Kennedy entourage on his way to develop them. How does one decide who's memory is faulty and who's isn't? The facts are: a shipping casket was delivered at 6:35, a Ceremonial Casket was delivered at 7:17 and a Ceremonial Casket was redeliverd at 8:00. If we can find out who carried these caskets where, and when, we would have a much better idea of what actually occurred. These weren't hard questions to have asked, I am surprised we don't have the answers.
Gordon,
If you haven't already I'd suggest reading Best Evidence, Horne's chapters related to Bethesda and this very nice summary of the information: http://www.manuscriptservice.com/Aftermath/ by Eaglesham and Rinnovatore
Also, you'd need to review the ARRB testimony of the key players....[size=12] [/SIZE]btw Gordon - where did you find that Humes observed the body at 6:45 - which I happen to believe as he was in the morgue altering the body. But there is no evidence of this - i believe ??
Mr. SPECTER - What time did the autopsy start approximately?
Commander HUMES - The president's body was received at 25 minutes before 8, and the autopsy
began at approximately 8 p.m. on that evening. You must include the fact that certain X-rays and other examinations were made before the actual beginning of
the routine type autopsy examination.
Humes repeats the 7:35 time repeatedly over the years.... and with re3gards to the FBI's story - enough has been uncovered to show they were NOT in constant contact with the casket OR in the morgue the entire time...
But you'd have to read thru a few things first... You ask great questions yet the original works of these people explains all that... and you post as if you haven't even taken a moment to research yourself for some of these answers which have been convered extensively... probably right here on this forum.
The "Aftermath" article is very good.
DJ
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
18-06-2013, 12:05 AM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2013, 12:42 AM by Albert Rossi.)
Gordon Gray Wrote:How did the shipping casket get carried into the morgue proper? I doubt Humes and Boswell did it by themselves. Jenkins and OConnor didn't, they weren't there yet? David's team weren't there either.
All of this discussion has convinced me to start rereading all the testimony which I have read at one time or another over the course of a number of years and which is hard for me to keep straight in memory alone.
So, here's a preliminary answer from one witness, Ed Reed. I am sure many of you already know this testimony, but I thought it useful to report an uninterrupted swatch of it here so that the full sequence of answers is evident.
From his ARRB deposition (Oct 21, 1997: 20-26):
Quote:A: We were called to the - I was paged over the head. "X-ray technologists report to the morgue." At that time, myself and, I guess, Jerry Custer went down to the morgue on - in the ground floor. That was the platform where the ambulances arrived and unloaded patients onto the - you know, to the platform.
Q: Did you go out to the platform?
A: No, just to the hallway.
Q: So, you - Did you see a Navy ambulance or a hearse, or any vehicle?
A: Out the - I could see out the window. There was two or three ambulances there. Other than that, I could not - I didn't see anything else.
Q: Could you describe the ambulances you saw?
A: They were normal, orange and white ambulances. Military ambulances.
Q: Did you see any ambulance unloading a casket?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did you ever see the casket with President Kennedy's body in it?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: When did you first see that?
A: When I returned from the chow hall-the dining room to the ground-floor morgue, the main hallway leading into the morgue.
Q: And did you see the casket in the hallway-
A: Yes, I did.
Q: - or in the morgue? Who was bringing - Was it -
A: It was on the - it was on the ground.
Q: It was sitting -
A: It was just sitting -
Q: - lying on the ground?
A: Right. And there was, say, five or six Marine corpsmen at attention, lined up across the hallway.
Q: And what did you observe next?
A: And next, we were instructed to - Someone opened the casket. I forget who exactly. It was an enlisted man.
Q: Is this in the hallway?
A: Yes. Let me - No, I'm sorry. we did not open it in the hallway. We carried it into the morgue.
Q: Did you, yourself, help carry it?
A; Yes, I did.
Q: Did anyone else assist you carrying it in?
A: Jerry Custer, the medical - I don't know their names. But the lab technologists, and the medical photographer - enlisted man. And I forget anyone else.
Q: Did the Marines help?
A: No.
Q: After you - You took the casket into the morgue; is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: What did you do when it arrived in the morgue?
A: Someone opened it up. We all stood back. Someone opened it up, and we were allowed to look into the casket. From our vantage point, we were able to see into the casket.
Q: Was it - was the casket on the floor?
A: Yes it was.
Q: Do you recall now who opened the casket?
A: No, I don't.
Q: After the casket was opened, what did you see?
A: I was able to look in and I saw President Kennedy without - completely nude in a plastic bag.
Q: What kind of plastic bag was it?
A: It was a heavy-gauge plastic bag. Plastic - almost like lawn - that people use to put leaves and stuff like that in. But it was see - it was a see-through.
Q: Are you familiar with the term "body bag"?
A: Yes, I am.
Q: What is a body bag in your understanding?
A: Body - body bag is a large bag, with a zipper normally, that remains are placed in. If it's an adult bag or - I assume they have infancy bags. But it's a large bag that you cannot see through.
Q: Was the bag that President Kennedy in a body bag?
A: No, it was not.
Q: Were there any wrappings at all on the body, either on the - sheets on the head, or towels, or -
A: No.
Q: What was the next thing that you saw happen?
A: We were asked to lift the body - unwrap the body, the plastic. And then we lifted the body. All of us lifted together. And there was two tables in the autopsy room, and we put it - the one furthest from the casket.
Q: Who was it who lifted the body out?
A: The same group of people that brought the body into the room.
Q: That brought the casket in?
A: Right.
Q: Who removed the plastic lining?
A: It was most of the lab technologists, the lab and medical photographer. I might have assisted, also. I can't remember that.
Q: Could you describe -
A: Completely.
Q: Oh, I'm sorry.
A: I could not - I can't remember that completely, to be truthful.
Q: Okay. Could you describe the casket that you saw in the hallway?
A: It was a typical military, aluminum casket. Stainless steel aluminum, whatever. I guess, then it was stainless steel.
Q: Did - What kind of handles did the casket have?
A: Just the normal stainless steel handles.
Q: Would you describe it as a ceremonial casket?
A: No.
He goes on then to talk about the wounds. Reed also spoke with Mark Flanagan of the HSCA in 1978, saying he arrived at 6:30 pm.
I've highlighted the points relevant to the ongoing discussion.
As far as the witnesses I listed originally (O'Connor, Custer, maybe Jenkins) as connecting military shipping casket and JFK's body, I think I probably should have said Reed too, at least ostensibly from this deposition. However, I won't belabor the obvious or beat a dead horse here by pointing out that Reed's testimony differs in certain details from that of other Bethesda witnesses.
I do find it kind of bizarre - but I guess these inconsistencies of context happen during sustained question and answer like this - that Gunn would phrase the question about the casket "the casket you saw in the hallway", when Reed just claimed to have brought it into the morgue.
My responses in BOLD... quoted text usually in BOLD/Italic... empahsis in red.
======================
David J.,
Firstly, let me just say thank you for remaining civil. All too often in thesediscussions, where two participants have polar opposite views, things can turnhostile very quickly. And that's something I'm keen to avoid. So again, thanks. My pleasure an informed and well supported debate is, imo, the most valuable offering a forum like this can offer.Peopleshould be allowed to decide for themselves and not have to sift thru ad homs and Counterintelpro type techniques just to discuss the case.
Anyway, I'm not exactly sure what point it is you're trying to make with regardto the X-rays. You write:
"Where are these"torso" xrays that would have been shown to Finck? They must NOT havebeen shown since he requested BODY XRAYS as there were none available to himwhen he arrived..."
There were X-rays of the torso madebefore Finck arrived, he said so himself many times. In his report to GeneralBlumberg, Finck stated: "The brain, the heart and the lungs had been removedbefore my arrival. X ray films of the head and chest had been taken." After hediscovered the back wound, and they couldn't locate the bullet, "I SUGGEST XRAY FILMS BE TAKEN...OF THE ENTIRE BODY" (ARRB MD28). He knew that bulletscould end up in the damnedest places, that's why Finck suggested entire bodyX-rays. My point here is a few fold… Look at what is written Martin. In the 15 minutes between 8:15 (firstincision which you are now saying was in the head) and Finck's arrival at 8:30….(actually2000 crossed out and replaced with 2030) "The brain, heart and lungs wereremoved"….. (which we know to be POST Yincision) in the 25 minutes from 7:35 and8pm ….. HOW MANY XRAYS ARE YOU GOING TO SAY WEREDONE? A: (Finck)In the entire body we saw X-rays of, I requested whole body X-rays for the reasons I mentioned, thatwhen I arrived in Bethesda, there were only X-rays of the head showing fragments due to another bullet wound.
Reading Reed's ARRB testimony (start at page35 or so)… one gets the distinct impression that Reed could not have taken all the xrays as well as have photos done at that time as well between 7:35 and 8pm… YET according to the official timeline, JFK did not arrive at the morgue until 8pm.. first incision 8:15. Reed et al needs much more time to complete the head xrays, let alone include the body ones you say Finck saw prior to ordering more… AND you have to explain how the body is in the morgue BEFORE it is brought to the morgue… Humes is telling us that ALL THE XRAYS prior to Finck, were done BEFORE 8pm. And if we are going to take Finck's word, the Chest x-rays taken did not show metallic fragments… BUT THESE TOO WERE SUPPOSEDLY TAKEN AND DEVELOPED IN 25 MINUTES… I believe if you look closer that is not physically possible….
Commander HUMES - Some of these X-rays were taken before and someduring the examination which, also maintains for the photographs, which weremade as the need became apparent to make such. However, before the postmortem examination wasbegun, anterior, posterior and lateral X-rays of the head, and of the torsowere made, and identification type photographs, I recall having beenmade of the full face of the late President. A photograph showing the massivehead wound with the large defect that was associated with it. To my recollection all of these were made before theproceedings began. Severalothers, approximately 15 to 20 in number, were made in total before we finishedthe proceedings.
As far as I know, you are correct that thefirst incision SHOULD BE the Y incision, but by Hume's own admission that wasnot the case in JFK's autopsy. From his ARRB testimony:
Q. But just let me start out first: Where wasthe first incision made?
A. I believe, of course, the top of the skull to remove the skull plate of thebrain. To remove what remained of the calvarium and to approach the removal ofthe brain.
Q. And was that incision simply of the scalp, or did you need to cut--
A. No, we had to cut some bone as well.
Q. Where did you make the incision on the scalp?
A. Where we usually--in the coronal plane, over the coronal suture. Of course,half of it was already--I mean, you know, it wasn't a neat incision because part of it was over the large defect that was already present. (p. 101)
Finck also tells us there was no cutting of the skull, only extending of the coronal suture line… http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=609&relPageId=5 "No sawing of the skull was necessary" From the FBI Report: Bureau agents assisted in the moving of the casket to the autopsy room. Thisoccurred at 7:17. All personnel with the exception of medical officers needed in the taking of photographs andX-Rays were requested to leave the autopsy room andremain in an adjacent room.
Upon completion of X-Rays and photographs, the firstincision was made at 8:15 p.m
According to this FBI report the Xrays and photos were COMPLETED by 8:15. Nothing in their report tells us Finck ordered or got any additional Xrays DURING the autopsy.
The following is a complete listing of photographs andX-Rays taken by the medical authorities of the President's body. Theywere turned over to Mr. Roy KELLERMAN of the Secret Service. X-Rays were developed by the hospital, however, the photographs were delivered to Secret Service undeveloped: 11 X-Rays- (when you read Reed'stestimony we find that a single image would take 5-6 minutes to develop andthen be checked for quality on p44 he tells us it took 25-28 minutes for 4 FOUR xrays when do you suppose there was time for 11?) 22 4 x 5 color photographs
18 4 x 5 black and white photographs
1 roll of 120 film containing five exposures
You write: "Finck tells us that xrays WERETAKEN of the body after the Y incision... since he is obviously looking at"entire body x-rays" at somepoint.
Once they begin working on him, the xrays and photos are now NOT reflective of the condition of the body in Dallas... can't be."
Yes that's right but, as I noted above, healso tells us that the X-rays of the SKULL were taken BEFORE his arrival. AndHumes, Boswell, Reed and everyone else who was there says that this was BEFOREthe first incision into the scalp. So the X-rays of the skull are ABSOLUTELYreflective of the state of the head AS IT ARRIVED at Bethesda.
Then it appears there are more xrays than there should be. Reed goes on to saythat after the first 4 head xrays, he is told to go wait in the gallery (he says podium but means gallery) where he is for 20 more minutes… and then starts taking the "other" xrays… p47 of his testimony… he had taken 2 each of each arm and each leg (8 total), 4 of the head (12 total) and 4 of the chest/abdomen… 16 total xrays ALL before Finck arrives..
"did you (Reed) take any xrays at any subsequent point during the evening?"
ANSWER: No.
So Martin… what's going on here? Too many xrays taken as opposed to FBI recorded given to Kellerman… Not enough time to even take these xrays prior to 8pm…. And no mention of who JFK is on the morgue table AND brought to the morgue at 8pm… (I think you will findthat our FBI boys did NOT witness the opening of the casket, the empty casket. Which is what I am starting to see happened… There was no SWITCH BACK to the ornate casket… This casket was brought in… and as they say in the report: which I believe was a much longer time than expressed.
All personnel with the exceptionof medical officers needed in the taking of photographs and X-Rays were requested to leave the autopsy room and remain in an adjacent room
With regard to the multiple caskets, there isno doubt that there is considerable confusion about this and I will not pretend to know what I cannot. I wish I had all the answers regarding entry times and whatnot, but I don't. However, the fact remains that the folks at Bethesda weretold, according to petty officer Donald Rebentisch, that two ambulances carrying two caskets were employed one of them empty and one with the body ofKennedy in a deliberate charade to slip the President's body into BethesdaNaval Hospital. And his story is corroborated by Bethesda staff dentaltechnician Robert Muma and another of Rebentisch's associates, Paul Neigler. Italso seems that their may have been a third casket carrying the body of adeceased soldier. Like I said, there is confusion about what was what regardingthe caskets which I guess was the whole point of the security measure. Does thatmean that we are free to conclude that there must have been some illicitpre-autopsy surgery? Hell no! There is still no evidence of such. And if, perHorne, Humes was the one doing the deed, why would it be necessary to putKennedy's body in a different casket anyway?
All I can go on is what we have as evidence… There is just as much evidence that JFK was flown to Bethesda in a helicopter and brought into the morgue via a black hearse… probably Gawlers.. when you listen to the tapes of the right front ramp preparations… and you come to realize that Reed was correct yet started his work over an hour before youthink he did… you can reverse engineer the process…
IMO, the events must be viewed from 11/22 onward, not 2013 backward. I'm not sure why you have such trouble believing Dennis David's account… as corroborated. Boyijean was a COPY he kept… and not to be found in the record… and is corroborated by the Joint Casket report which also states the body left Bethesda at 3:50am. Obviously we all give weight to different evidence differently…. But you have not once address the conflict between the timings of entrance #1, the SS/FBI entrance #2 (where by then JFK was being xrays by Reed) and entrance #3, the MDW…
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4865[/ATTACH] I am adding this graphic to show that the Fox photos still may not have been taken at Bethesda... The way it is described and how it is drawn... WHERE do you thing the included photos were taken within the Bethesda morgue.. Doesn't one of the witnesses state that wooden thing on the floor above JFK was NOT at the bethesda morgue and that they used BLOCKS to support the head, not the metal brace....
Robinsonsaid he had a "50 yard-line seat' at the autopsy, and was leaning on the railwith his arms, from his seat in the gallery. He said the President's head was to his right, which means that he was on the anatomical left of the President during the autopsy. He said that most of thepathologists and their assistants were opposite him, on the anatomical right of the President during the autopsy. The gallery observers were behind him in thegallery. You write: "and Finally... you do notaddress the known fact that not a single person in Dallas tells us the damage is anything close to what is described at Bethesda...
NOT ONE Martin... they all confirm what Hill tells us... ALL of them."
I did address this before in post #11. Here'swhat I wrote:
The great mystery that remains for many is the discrepancy between what wasseen at Parkland and what was recorded at Bethesda. To me is this no longer amystery. Firstly, as your graphic shows, the Parkland doctors described a woundthat was in pretty much the area in which the fragment trail onthe X-ray showsthe bullet did exit. Some of them thought it was lower down, some of them not.I don't find it surprising or troubling that some thought the wound was furtherback than it was. I don't agree with everything Pat Speer says but he does somefine work on this on his website.
See graphic for bullet path… it does NOT align with a shot from behind… even when replaced 4 inches higher… and it was the AUTOPSY the NIGHT IF THE KILLING that determined where the entry was… are you trying to say the autopsy wrongly concluded where the shot entered JFK? And yet years later the HSCA could correctly place it when noteven seeing the body? Amazing!
Martin... there is not hile to the rear of that fragment path... there was a wound over his right eye seen by MANY... as well as damage to the left temple area... the most telling being the line drawing of the location of these fragments.. if there is no bone or brain there... (frontal view) what is holding those fragments up?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4866[/ATTACH]
Secondly, the autopsy report admits that the skull damage extended into theoccipital region which actually confirms part of the Parkland doctors'recollections rather than contradicts it. But the autopsy doctors said that thewound was 17 cm, encompassing most of the right side of the head, which isobviously bigger than what was seen at Parkland. What to make of this? Well, Ibelieve that Dr. Gary Aguilar provided the most reasonable explanation yearsago in Murder in Dealey Plaza:
"...that the wound was described as larger at autopsy than noted by emergencypersonnel is not proof it was surgically enlarged. Wounds picked apart duringan autopsy examination are often found to be larger than they first appeared toemergency personnel. In Kennedy's case, moreover, Jackie Kennedy testified thatshe tried to hold the top of JFK's head down while they raced from Dealey Plazato Parkland Hospital. It is not hard to imagine the possibility that during thetime it took the Presidential limousine to get to Parkland Hospital, clot hadformed gluing a portion of disrupted scalp down making JFK's skull defectappear smaller to treating surgeons than it later would to autopsy surgeons."(p. 187)
In other words, the Parkland staff only saw the rear most part of the woundwhich fooled them into thinking it was located only in the rear of the head.This is perfectly reasonable and I have no problem accepting it as a probableexplanation. It is INFINITELY more reasonable than claims that the autopsydoctors performed illicit pre-autopsy surgery which, as I said above, wascompletely unnecessary anyway.
I don't think we have any place to go if weare going to use the word "REASONABLE" and the "ASSASSINATION OF JFK".
From my POV, the Evidence had to create anenduring record of Lee Oswald the lone killer. There is more than enough evidence to supporta frontal head shot… From SS agents toDPD to Sheriffs to witnesses closest to the shots, the FRONT at the very least,was the source of at least 1 shot if not more… whether they missed or not, theFRONTAL SHOT(S) occurred and destroy Oswald the Lone Nut…
Martin… there are many, many steps that take place prior to the changing of JFK'swounds which reinforce the NEED to do so. As I am not a CIA assassination planner, I cannot tell you what wasplanned or not… what I do know is thatthe "illicit altering of JFK's wounds" would not come anywhere near the levelof atrocity the CIA had engineered only within a few years… and continued to engineer in the years ahead… Add to this the depravity that exists in thearmed forces of the USA and it really is no wonder the autopsy was changed fromthe legally mandated one from Earl Rose, to the military only, closed dooraffair that it became.
Alteration is one of the best explanationsfor the evidence that is available to us. If you'd prefer to dismiss everyone in DP, Hill's description, Parkland'sdescription, the evidence of a frontal headshot, the record of evidence abusesINCLUDING the faking of xrays and the taking of multiple sets of Xray/photographicimages… so be it.
Either way he is dead, those that benefittedfrom it, did so.. and these same people shoved it down your throat with Oklahoma,Afghanistan and 9/11 - just to name the tip of that spear.
The level of distaste and believability of itall was, IMO, part of the "brutal way in which they disposed of this leader…" signaling to all, "WE ARE IN CONTROL" andinsuring that no one from the janitors to the Admirals were going to talk…
Sorry my friend… but, "INFINITELYmore reasonable" has no place at thistable.
DJ
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
18-06-2013, 01:30 AM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2013, 04:44 AM by Gordon Gray.)
David Josephs Wrote:
Gordon Gray Wrote:A few more questions: We know that a shipping casket was delivered at 6:35, David's crew placed it in the ante chamber. Some assume it contained the president's body, but there is no actual verification. Hume says he observed the president's body shortly after that at 6:45 or thereabouts. How did the shipping casket get carried into the morgue proper? I doubt Humes and Boswell did it by themselves. Jenkins and OConnor didn't, they weren't there yet? David's team weren't there either. When did the Ceremonial Coffin get moved from the antechamber to the morgue proper? The FBI men suggest they brought it all the way in immediately on unloading it at 7:17. Were they lying or mistaken? They say they assisted in removing the president body immediately thereafter before being asked to leave for X Rays. Again are they lying or confused? Who placed the presidents body back into the Ceremonial Casket an carried it back to the amabulance? Why believe Osborne's account of a bullet falling out as the body was removed, but ignore the fact that he saw this body fully clothed? OConnor removed the body at around 8:00 but Humes sees it at 6:45? Custer says the X Rays were taken after the Y incision, but also says he saw the Kennedy entourage on his way to develop them. How does one decide who's memory is faulty and who's isn't? The facts are: a shipping casket was delivered at 6:35, a Ceremonial Casket was delivered at 7:17 and a Ceremonial Casket was redeliverd at 8:00. If we can find out who carried these caskets where, and when, we would have a much better idea of what actually occurred. These weren't hard questions to have asked, I am surprised we don't have the answers.
Gordon,
If you haven't already I'd suggest reading Best Evidence, Horne's chapters related to Bethesda and this very nice summary of the information: http://www.manuscriptservice.com/Aftermath/ by Eaglesham and Rinnovatore
Also, you'd need to review the ARRB testimony of the key players....[size=12] [/SIZE]btw Gordon - where did you find that Humes observed the body at 6:45 - which I happen to believe as he was in the morgue altering the body. But there is no evidence of this - i believe ??
Mr. SPECTER - What time did the autopsy start approximately?
Commander HUMES - The president's body was received at 25 minutes before 8, and the autopsy
began at approximately 8 p.m. on that evening. You must include the fact that certain X-rays and other examinations were made before the actual beginning of
the routine type autopsy examination.
Humes repeats the 7:35 time repeatedly over the years.... and with re3gards to the FBI's story - enough has been uncovered to show they were NOT in constant contact with the casket OR in the morgue the entire time...
But you'd have to read thru a few things first... You ask great questions yet the original works of these people explains all that... and you post as if you haven't even taken a moment to research yourself for some of these answers which have been convered extensively... probably right here on this forum.
The "Aftermath" article is very good.
DJ
I have read all of the sources you cited, and that's why I am asking these questions. Perhaps you can provide the answers. As to the Humes' time of 6:45, I am merely citing one of Lifton's posts above. He is quoting Humes' AARB testimony: When testifying before the ARRB, Humes was asked: when did you first see the body? His answer: 6: 45 pm.
Here's the exact quote, from the ARRB transcript:
Q: Dr. Humes, when did you first see the body of President Kennedy?:
A: I didn't look at my watch, if I even had a watch on, but I would guess it was 6:45 or 7 o'clock, something like that, (pause) approximately.
18-06-2013, 01:57 AM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2013, 05:02 AM by Gordon Gray.)
Albert Rossi Wrote:
Gordon Gray Wrote:How did the shipping casket get carried into the morgue proper? I doubt Humes and Boswell did it by themselves. Jenkins and OConnor didn't, they weren't there yet? David's team weren't there either.
All of this discussion has convinced me to start rereading all the testimony which I have read at one time or another over the course of a number of years and which is hard for me to keep straight in memory alone.
So, here's a preliminary answer from one witness, Ed Reed. I am sure many of you already know this testimony, but I thought it useful to report an uninterrupted swatch of it here so that the full sequence of answers is evident.
From his ARRB deposition (Oct 21, 1997: 20-26):
Quote:A: We were called to the - I was paged over the head. "X-ray technologists report to the morgue." At that time, myself and, I guess, Jerry Custer went down to the morgue on - in the ground floor. That was the platform where the ambulances arrived and unloaded patients onto the - you know, to the platform.
Q: Did you go out to the platform?
A: No, just to the hallway.
Q: So, you - Did you see a Navy ambulance or a hearse, or any vehicle?
A: Out the - I could see out the window. There was two or three ambulances there. Other than that, I could not - I didn't see anything else.
Q: Could you describe the ambulances you saw?
A: They were normal, orange and white ambulances. Military ambulances.
Q: Did you see any ambulance unloading a casket?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did you ever see the casket with President Kennedy's body in it?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: When did you first see that?
A: When I returned from the chow hall-the dining room to the ground-floor morgue, the main hallway leading into the morgue.
Q: And did you see the casket in the hallway-
A: Yes, I did.
Q: - or in the morgue? Who was bringing - Was it -
A: It was on the - it was on the ground.
Q: It was sitting -
A: It was just sitting -
Q: - lying on the ground?
A: Right. And there was, say, five or six Marine corpsmen at attention, lined up across the hallway.
Q: And what did you observe next?
A: And next, we were instructed to - Someone opened the casket. I forget who exactly. It was an enlisted man.
Q: Is this in the hallway?
A: Yes. Let me - No, I'm sorry. we did not open it in the hallway. We carried it into the morgue.
Q: Did you, yourself, help carry it?
A; Yes, I did.
Q: Did anyone else assist you carrying it in?
A: Jerry Custer, the medical - I don't know their names. But the lab technologists, and the medical photographer - enlisted man. And I forget anyone else.
Q: Did the Marines help?
A: No.
Q: After you - You took the casket into the morgue; is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: What did you do when it arrived in the morgue?
A: Someone opened it up. We all stood back. Someone opened it up, and we were allowed to look into the casket. From our vantage point, we were able to see into the casket.
Q: Was it - was the casket on the floor?
A: Yes it was.
Q: Do you recall now who opened the casket?
A: No, I don't.
Q: After the casket was opened, what did you see?
A: I was able to look in and I saw President Kennedy without - completely nude in a plastic bag.
Q: What kind of plastic bag was it?
A: It was a heavy-gauge plastic bag. Plastic - almost like lawn - that people use to put leaves and stuff like that in. But it was see - it was a see-through.
Q: Are you familiar with the term "body bag"?
A: Yes, I am.
Q: What is a body bag in your understanding?
A: Body - body bag is a large bag, with a zipper normally, that remains are placed in. If it's an adult bag or - I assume they have infancy bags. But it's a large bag that you cannot see through.
Q: Was the bag that President Kennedy in a body bag?
A: No, it was not.
Q: Were there any wrappings at all on the body, either on the - sheets on the head, or towels, or -
A: No.
Q: What was the next thing that you saw happen?
A: We were asked to lift the body - unwrap the body, the plastic. And then we lifted the body. All of us lifted together. And there was two tables in the autopsy room, and we put it - the one furthest from the casket.
Q: Who was it who lifted the body out?
A: The same group of people that brought the body into the room.
Q: That brought the casket in?
A: Right.
Q: Who removed the plastic lining?
A: It was most of the lab technologists, the lab and medical photographer. I might have assisted, also. I can't remember that.
Q: Could you describe -
A: Completely.
Q: Oh, I'm sorry.
A: I could not - I can't remember that completely, to be truthful.
Q: Okay. Could you describe the casket that you saw in the hallway?
A: It was a typical military, aluminum casket. Stainless steel aluminum, whatever. I guess, then it was stainless steel.
Q: Did - What kind of handles did the casket have?
A: Just the normal stainless steel handles.
Q: Would you describe it as a ceremonial casket?
A: No.
He goes on then to talk about the wounds. Reed also spoke with Mark Flanagan of the HSCA in 1978, saying he arrived at 6:30 pm.
I've highlighted the points relevant to the ongoing discussion.
As far as the witnesses I listed originally (O'Connor, Custer, maybe Jenkins) as connecting military shipping casket and JFK's body, I think I probably should have said Reed too, at least ostensibly from this deposition. However, I won't belabor the obvious or beat a dead horse here by pointing out that Reed's testimony differs in certain details from that of other Bethesda witnesses.
I do find it kind of bizarre - but I guess these inconsistencies of context happen during sustained question and answer like this - that Gunn would phrase the question about the casket "the casket you saw in the hallway", when Reed just claimed to have brought it into the morgue.
Shame Reed can't remember the names of the lab technicians. If it were Jenkins and O'Connor Then we would have an idea of the time frame, around 7:30 or after, according to Jenkins. Also I can't recall when Reibe and Stringer, the photographers, said they first came, but this would have happened sometime after they arrived. This would mean the shipping casket wasn't moved into the morgue from the cooling room until about an hour after it was delivered. His description of the body is curious. The more I think about it the more I am inclined to believe that the presidents body was indeed in the shipping casket that arrived at 6:35. But that may have been part of a benign security measure as described by Rebentisch. There need not have been a pre autopsy where the body was altered. The key IMO is just when Reed saw the coffin in the hall and helped take it into the morgue. When testifying before the ARRB, Humes was asked: when did you first see the body? His answer: 6: 45 pm.
Here's the exact quote, from the ARRB transcript:
Q: Dr. Humes, when did you first see the body of President Kennedy?:
A: I didn't look at my watch, if I even had a watch on, but I would guess it was 6:45 or 7 o'clock, something like that, (pause) approximately. The question for me is did he see the body or just the shipping coffin. He told the Warren Commission 7:35. O'Connor says he removed the body from the body bag at around 8:00. Jenkins said he arrived at the morgue about 40-30 minutes prior to the beginning of the autopsy, which would be about 7:30. He said he assisted in removing the body from the casket and placing it on the table. Riebe who was there at the time says he saw O'Connor remove the body. Reed says he saw the coffin in the hall when he arrived and assisted with carrying it in and opening it. He said lab technicians(Jenkins and O'Connor presumably) and photographers(Stringer and Riebe) were there and also assisted. He also says he arrives at 6:30, which couldn't be so because the coffin wasn't placed in the anteroom, until 6:45. Since he didn't see the coffin unloaded from the ambulance I would assume he got there later than that. It is possible the coffin wasn't moved in to the morgue from the anteroom until sometime around 7:30(perhaps just prior to the SS and FBI arrival with the Ceremonial Coffin) which would fit Humes' Warren Commission testimony of 7:35, and also Jenkin's, O'Connor's and Riebe's recollections. If this is the case then the FBI agents being sent away would allow for the body to be removed from the shipping casket without them being aware. Preliminary photos were taken, then XRays after which the body was returned to the Ceremonial Casket and brought back into the morgue by the Honor Guard at about 8:00 with the FBI agents witnessing this.
Quote:A few more questions: We know that a shipping casket was delivered at 6:35, David's crew placed it in the ante chamber. Some assume it contained the president's body, but there is no actual verification. Hume says he observed the president's body shortly after that at 6:45 or thereabouts. How did the shipping casket get carried into the morgue proper? I doubt Humes and Boswell did it by themselves. Jenkins and OConnor didn't, they weren't there yet? David's team weren't there either. When did the Ceremonial Coffin get moved from the antechamber to the morgue proper? The FBI men suggest they brought it all the way in immediately on unloading it at 7:17. Were they lying or mistaken? They say they assisted in removing the president body immediately thereafter before being asked to leave for X Rays. Again are they lying or confused? Who placed the presidents body back into the Ceremonial Casket an carried it back to the amabulance? Why believe Osborne's account of a bullet falling out as the body was removed, but ignore the fact that he saw this body fully clothed? OConnor removed the body at around 8:00 but Humes sees it at 6:45? Custer says the X Rays were taken after the Y incision, but also says he saw the Kennedy entourage on his way to develop them. How does one decide who's memory is faulty and who's isn't? The facts are: a shipping casket was delivered at 6:35, a Ceremonial Casket was delivered at 7:17 and a Ceremonial Casket was redeliverd at 8:00. If we can find out who carried these caskets where, and when, we would have a much better idea of what actually occurred. These weren't hard questions to have asked, I am surprised we don't have the answers.
I have read all of the sources you cited, and that's why I am asking these questions. Perhaps you can provide the answers. As to the Humes' time of 6:45, I am merely citing one of Lifton's posts above. He is quoting Humes' AARB testimony: When testifying before the ARRB, Humes was asked: when did you first see the body? His answer: 6: 45 pm.
Here's the exact quote, from the ARRB transcript:
Q: Dr. Humes, when did you first see the body of President Kennedy?:
A: I didn't look at my watch, if I even had a watch on, but I would guess it was 6:45 or 7 o'clock, something like that, (pause) approximately.
If you read all these sources... how is it that you did not find your answers ??? Humes saying 6:45 impeaches his previous testimony inwhich he says it was an hour later... it also completely screws with the 7:17 time..
But yes indeed, Humes does see and alter JFK prior to 7:17.
As I mentioned earlier... Reed talks about taking 16 xrays prior to 8pm... Sibert says Kellerman only too 11 with him as the "official" count... It is not possible to take all those xrays in the 25 minutes...
The rest of your questions are answered... we know who took these caskets in and where these people were in the mean time... Sibert had no knowledge of the MDW and the 8pm casket delivery
The FBI men were NOT IN THE ANTE ROOM when the casket was opened and did not see JFK's body... Humes cannot see the body at 6:45 unless Dennis David and Boyajian and the rest are correct... which they were.
This really is not that complicated - Kellerman orchestrated Bethesda - he walks out of the morgue to meet Greer and the FBI men to bring in the empty casket... and then removes all personnel from the morgue for Xrays... meanwhile Reed had been taking and developing xrays since 6:45.
DJ
1) How did the shipping casket get carried into the morgue proper? Reed helped carry the casket into the autopsyroom, was present when it was opened, and saw that the body was insidea "plastic bag." [ARRB line15, p. 24]
2) When did the Ceremonial Coffin get moved from the antechamber to the morgue proper?
The FBI men suggest they brought it all the way in immediately on unloading it at 7:17. Were they lying or mistaken?
That's not at all what the FBI men suggest. In fact... http://www.manuscriptservice.com/JWS-FXO/ They were Covering their asses since they had actually let JFK out of their sight for quite a while... sounds to me from 7:17 until 8pm...
These discussions woul[B]d have provided Sibert and O'Neill with a plausible reason for a delay in the start of the autopsy, which may explain their claim to Arlen Specter that "the preparation for the autopsy" began at 7:17 PM. In other words, there was no need for them to enter the autopsy room at 7:17 PM because, as far as they were initially aware, nothing was going on there. However, at some later point, it appears that they realized that there was activity in the autopsy room during their absence. Support for this thesis comes from Sibert's interview with William Law; when asked how long it was from when the body was unwrapped to when they returned to the autopsy room (supposedly after photographs and X-rays were taken), Sibert said, "Probably close to 45 minutes, something like that" [10, p. 244]:
[/B]Law: So, that's how long you were in the cooler room or the anteroom? Sibert: Maybe out in the hall.
Law: Out in the hall?
Sibert: Yes, we were excluded from where they were working. We had no idea what was going onX-rays or nothin' http://www.history-matters.com/archive/j...rt_12a.htm
3) Who placed the presidents body back into the Ceremonial Casket an carried it back to the amabulance? Remains one of the mysteries... between 7:17 and 8pm, the BIG casket was removed from the anteroom and morgue... the FBI did NOT SEE ANOTHER CASKET BROUGHT IN...
They never saw the Joint casket team... http://www.livejournal.com/search/?journ...q=bethesda
After earlier "losing" the casket while chasing a decoy ambulance around the grounds of [B]Bethesda in the darkness, it was imperative to those orchestrating the cover-up that night that the confused and mortified Joint Service Casket Team be allowed to "find the casket" shortly before 8:00 PM, and perform their duly authorized function
[/B]
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
