The disappearance of the photographers' vehicle

[David Lifton]

Fine.

You can say it was all deliberate but see then there is the problem of the other side coming up with films which show pretty much the same thing. I know since I have seen them. That is with JFK exposed directly to the crowd.

The second thing is, alright, then if you are saying it was a deliberate and premeditated part of a conspiracy, who are you going to accuse: Forrest Sorrels? On what evidence is he made complicit in the plot? I mean, please, I am all ears on this.

This stuff with the SS has been around since Murder from Within. Which was published eons ago and essentially had the Lifton plot before Lifton: body alteration, Z film alteration, SS complicity.

To me, the best evidence of some kind of premeditation with the SS is what happened in Chicago. And the exposure of that postdates Murder from Within. It was not really exposed in print until Edwin Black in 1975.

And IMO, it was the publication of Bolden's book that caused them to come out with the McCubbin book. In order to discredit Bolden.

BTW, let me add, nice to have Charles back. I guess it was not just a lark, either the bird or the cigarette. I didn't think it was.

Regarding your statement in the above post: "This stuff with the SS has been around since Murder from Within. Which was published eons ago and essentially had the Lifton plot before Lifton: body alteration, Z film alteration, SS complicity."

That is a bunch of crap, and you should know better, Mr. DiEugenio.

All of the events pertaining to my discovery of evidence that the WC files contained evidence that President Kennedy's body was altered prior to autopsy were made in the period October/December, 1966--a year or more before I ever met Fred Newcomb (or shared with him many of my insights).

The paper trail documenting my discoveries goes back to October 24, 1966, when I had a five-hour or more meeting with UCLA Law Professor Liebeler, with whom I met on that day; the phone call I made to FBI Agent Sibert (November 2, 1966, as documented in Chapter 12 of Best Evidence, and the paper trail he then generated); my letter to FBI Headuarters about the surgery statement, on November 9, 1966 (as documented in Chapter 12), and the letter that Director Hoover wrote in response; the phone calls I had with Commander Humes, as documented in Chapter 8 and 10 of Best Evidence. And, finally, there is the Liebeler Memorandum of November 8, 1966. That memorandum-which was transmitted to Chief Justice Warren, plus the legal staff, and the Kennedy family attorney--mentions me by name, as well as my discovery that the FBI report of the agents who attended the autopsy states that when the body was unwrapped, it was "apparent" that there had been "surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull." All of this transpired in November, 1966, and copies oof the Liebeler Memo are at NARA, and in many important librries--the Ford Library, because he received a copy, at Princeton, with Allen Dulles' papers, with Sen Richard Russell's papers, etc.

All of this generated a major paper trail that pre-dates my first (ever) meeting of Fred Newcomb by almost a year--and at the time I met him, he had read one or two books on the Warren Commission (e.g,, Lane and Epstein) and did not own as set of the 26 volumes.

Subsequently, we became friends--for awhile--and I shared with him many of my insights; and also provided him with 2,000 pages of the Gemberling FBI reports. There were dozens of discussions--and at the time, he was drawing pictures of furniture for Sears. His transformation from free-lance commercial artist to author occurred about three years later, and was prompted by his belief --which is set out in his first chapter--that the driver shot the President. Meanwhile, quite a bit of my insights ended up in Murder From Within, which he had completed by 1974.

The Zapruder film alteration was something I first conceived of in 1969--and that was shared too, but by that time, we both had copies of the Z film and I won't quibble with who found what. We had many conversations about it, and in 1970, I learned that Fred was convinced that the film showed that the driver shot the President.

But back to the question of body alteration: As far as the discovery of body alteration evidence, and the implication of Secret Service involvement--that was my work. And I'd appreciate it if you would not disseminate the false information promoted by your buddy, the late Roger Feinman, that somehow implies that the origination came from anyone but me. The paper trail I cited above makes clear when these discoveries were made, and by whom (yours truly) and I don't appreciate your spreading falsehoods about that. Do you think you can possibly keep these facts straight?

Are you are capable of that kind of integrity and accuracy?

One would hope so.

DSL
6/23/13; 10:15 PM PDT
Los Angeles, California

[Charles Drago]

To me, the best evidence of some kind of premeditation with the SS is what happened in Chicago. And the exposure of that postdates Murder from Within. It was not really exposed in print until Edwin Black in 1975.

For an alternative to the conventional take on "what happened in Chicago," see my The Chicago Plot: A Hypothesis at

https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/sho...highlight=

Writing in A Secret Order about multiple simultaneous but independent recruiting efforts in support of a talked-about invasion of Haiti, Hank Albarelli reveals the following:

"Soldier of fortune Loran Eugene Hall ... first encountered Thomas Davis in New Orleans about two years before the assassination. Davis also had dealings with Hall in 1963 in Los Angeles when he [Davis] was recruiting for his Haitian operation. Hall, surely not coincidentally, was also recruiting for what was most likely the same operation. Indeed, there is serious speculation, according to one former CIA operative, that Davis' Los Angeles operation was deliberately slipshod and high-profile by design so as to throw off FBI investigators from Hall's concurrent recruitment activities. Said the same official, who declined to be named in this book, 'It's a common ploy with CIA. Sometimes there can be 3 or 4 operations in play at one time but only one is actually fully planed and intended to go forward.'" [emphasis added by Drago]

Please, let's not hijack this thread. If you'd care to join the discussion of the Chicago plot (and I hope that you will), please do so on the thread accessed via the above link.

BTW, let me add, nice to have Charles back. I guess it was not just a lark, either the bird or the cigarette. I didn't think it was.

Thanks, Jim. For the record: Events wholly unanticipated by me at the time of my very serious withdrawal from JFK blogging have necessitated this limited return to the medium.

[Richard Hocking]

Was the shuffling of the photographer and press vehicle so far back in the motorcade, to a point where there was virtually no view of the presidential limo in the distance, a deliberate and premeditated part of a conspiracy? Or could it have just been coincidence?

Consider that question in the context of what could be viewed as other Dallas Motorcade Coincidences:

1. A decision is made not to involve the nearby 112th Military Intelligence unit for Presidential protection in Dallas.
2. The Motorcade route is arranged to include a 120° turn, violating SS protocols.
3. DPD decides to provide only limited protection for the motorcade
4. DPD motorcycle escorts are ordered to remain behind the Presidential Limo rather than flanking it.
5. A decision is made not to use the Bubble Top on the Limo
6. At Love Field, JFK aide General Godfrey McHugh is shuffled from his ordinary spot in the front seat of the Limo to the VIP car, much further back in the motorcade.
7. JFK's personal physician, Dr. George Burkley was shuffled from his expected position in the lead car or followup car to a bus far back in the motorcade, despite his protests to the SS at Love Field.
8. Two SS agents flanking the Presidential Limo at Love Field are ordered to stand down by Roberts
9. Photographer and Press are shuffled farther back in the motorcade then normal, where they will be unable to take pictures or film the Presidential Limo and the immediate surroundings during the shooting sequence.
10. Jerry Belknap faints on Houston Street, diverting attention away from the SouthWest part of Dealey Plaza where shooters are most certainly settling into their positions, scant minutes before the motorcade arrives
11. Just-recently-hired-sheep-dipped Lee Oswald happens to be working at the TSBD
12. The previously mentioned 120° turn happens directly in front of the TSBD, slowing the Limo down dramatically as it glides toward the kill zone.
13. Numerous individuals are present on the Railroad overpass in Dealey Plaza, violating SS protocols.
14. TUM chooses the kill zone in Dealey Plaza for his "demonstration"
15. DCM also chooses the kill zone (right next to TUM) to view the motorcade
16. DCM raises his fist and TUM pumps his umbrella during the shooting sequence
17. Presidential Limo comes to a Near/Complete stop, violating SS protocols.
18. The only SS agent to react protectively in a timely manner to the gunfire is the agent protecting VP Johnson.

It is not my intention to cast doubt on SSA Sorrels. He is, imo, innocent of knowing participation in the plot.
The question regarding the Press, or any one of the above items, standing alone, could be considered a coincidence.
But viewed together as a group, they lend themselves to a conclusion of arrangements and careful planning.

[Phil Dragoo]

Richard Hawking:

The question regarding the Press, or any one of the above items, standing alone, could be considered a coincidence.
But viewed together as a group, they lend themselves to a conclusion of arrangements and careful planning.

A single incident in isolation--that is the intent of all official "investigations" and commentary:

To so constrict the viewing portal as to remove all context.

For such reasons we applaud Douglass' Unspeakable

And recognized Dulles' snort, "the head could be spinning for all I see. . .were they smoking up there?"

The entire op is in the tenor of an historic phrase:

But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism--

What are we to believe:

Their repeated appeals to coincidence,

or our lying eyes?

Hawking's Thesis:

[S]tanding alone, could be considered a coincidence[, b]ut viewed together as a group, they lend themselves to a conclusion of arrangements and careful planning.

[David Lifton]

Without the complete failure of every Secret Service agent in JFK's detail on November 22, 1963, the assassination wouldn't have been possible. If Greer had followed standard procedure and accelerated at the sound of gunfire. If Kellerman had followed standard procedure and jumped in back to shield JFK after the first shot. If the motorcycle cops had been in their usual (and logical) places. bracketing the limo on each fender. If any one of the agents on the follow up car had followed standard procedure and rushed forward at the sound of gunfire to cover JFK.

There will be no belatedly released memo delineating orders from someone, instructing the Secret Service agents not to protect JFK in Dallas that day. But the conclusion is inescapable that, for whatever reason, JFK's presidential detail did not follow standard procedures that day, and permitted the assassination to happen as a result. When you add in the other oddities that day, from McHugh not riding with JFK as usual, to the press corps being so far back in the motorcade, thereby robbing history of professional footage of JFK's assassination, to the continuing effort to absolve the Secret Service of responsibility, to the point of elderly agents writing books dishonestly trying to blame JFK for his own death, it should become obvious to any researcher that this is a productive line of inquiry.

We continue to chase shadowy entities like "rogue" elements, "anti-Castro" Cubans and the like, but are curiously reluctant to look at individuals who appear suspect. Emory Roberts, for instance, can be seen waving off an agent initially identified as Henry Rybka (and I still believe it is Rybka), as the limo leaves the airport. Rybka's reaction is very telling, and combined with the allegation that Roberts ordered John Ready to stay on the bumper of the follow up car when he was going to actually do his job, elevated Roberts to the status of a primary suspect, in my view, in terms of having prior knowledge of the assassination. Another more obvious suspect is Bill Greer. It's a jarring blow to common sense to watch him hit the brakes, and then turn around and watch JFK's response to the throat wound, and yet remain unresponsive until after the fatal head shot.

In any real investigation, the Secret Service agents in JFK's detail would have been grilled mercilessly, and considered at very best to have been monstrously derelict in their duties. Instead, they were actually praised by the Warren Commission and some still consider Clint Hill a hero.

Don, this is an excellent post. An excellent summary of the "case against the White House Detail."

Quite a few Secret Service agents had to be directly involved in the murder of President Kennedy. That's hard to believe, but the evidence suggests that is precisely the case. An even larger number are directly involved in the cover-up--and I'm referring here to people who had no "before the fact" knowledge at all, but were given (and bought into) some cock-and-bull story about "what happened" and the necessity for covering up the truth in the name of "national security."

IMHO: those who are still alive are involved in what I call a "race to the cemetery." They simply do not wish to get involved--and their focus now is on their pensions and their 401(k) plans.

With the plethora of false theories, I can (almost) understand. These men are not Kennedy assassination researchers. They only know some piece of the puzzle. So why should they enter such an ugly debate?

Of one thing I am absolutely certain: Roy Kellerman, the senior agent on the trip, as well as Emory Roberts, a shift leader, were both involved, up to his their necks, and before the fact, in the assassination of President Kennedy. And once people of that level were recruited, JFK was--for all practical purposes--a dead man walking. Because you can not have a recruitment at that senior level without the President's death following, once "the details" are worked out and in place.

DSL
6/24/13; 1:40 PM PDT
Los Angeles, California

[Tracy Riddle]

The only way I can accept that Kellerman and Greer were involved would be if they'd been led to believe it was going to be a simulated assassination attempt, not a real one. A real one meant they were both very much in the line of fire. Either could have been hit by a bullet or by fragments, particularly if one really did pass through the windshield.

Emory Roberts and Floyd Boring were the two top suspects on Palamara's list.

[Jim DiEugenio]

LIFTON SPREADS DISINFO ABOUT WHAT I SAID

Uh David, that is not a bunch of crap.

Are you going to say you have never read Murder from Within? If you have then you must know what is in it. And I described it accurately.

As per your, whatever it is with Newcomb, I really don't give two hoots about it. Whether you originated these ideas, or he did, or he stole them from you or you stole them from him--I mean, really, who the heck cares today, on the verge of the 50th?

What I am saying is simple: There was obviously some kind of negligence with the SS. Now, was it planned that way or was it just negligence?

Now as I said, this has been out there since Murder from Within. Which means its like 40 some years old. If this was a premeditated part of the plot then who was in on it? I ask again, are you saying Forrest Sorrells?

OK,if that is him, what is your evidence then? Like I said, I am all ears. I'll listen.

My point is this: There are anomalies all over this case. Literally you can bring them up all day long. Then Don says, well see, if that had not happened with the SS, Kennedy would not have been killed. And since that is part of Lifton's idea, he likes it.

Well, then Von Pein puts up pictures of a previous Kennedy visit and you can see the same thing: very little protocol followed and Kennedy could have been killed.

I think 50 years later is long enough to be noting anomalies and saying: see if that had not happened, Kennedy would not have been killed. Pardon my French, but today, that amounts to cracking walnuts with one's butt cheeks.

Now, don't get me wrong. I agree that Tracy has pointed out something was wrong, guys should have been fired or suspended and there should have been a major reorganization of the SS after this. There was no excuse for what happened. But unless you can show me the deliberateness and show me the connecting point in the plot, then, to me, I think Chicago is more important. In that case, there was a plot, and the fact that it went unreported and covered up was directly related to the Dallas successful hit.

I don't want to toot my own horn, but I guess I have to. I was very specific about names and connecting points in the second edition of Destiny Betrayed. And I was also careful to document things as much as possible. And I feel very comfortable defending that thesis. Out of over 2,000 footnotes, I think I used something like four confidential sources who I could not name.

So that is why I ask, if you say its deliberate and part of the plot, then who was involved in SS conspiracy? Like I said, I am all ears on this. I listened to Horne, all 1800 pages worth. I don't think it was convincing.To me it underlined a problem we have in overselling things, like the Boyajian Report, like Madeleine Brown.

I want us to get specific and I want to hear the evidence. The time sure is ripe, is it not?

[Tracy Riddle]

Any number of stories could have been told to SS agents to make them believe a simulated hit was in the works: generate sympathy for JFK going into 1964 (mean ol' right-wingers in Dallas try to kill the President); justify more funding, increased manpower and bigger field offices for the SS, or maybe the Operation Northwoods scenario of blaming Castro to justify a war. In any case, you can see several SS agents being recruited into something like this, and then when it turns out to be real, they keep their mouths shut to protect themselves and their agency.

The SS was feeling threatened back then. Hoover had been trying for years to absorb them into the FBI, and RFK was trying to bring them under his command at the Justice Dept. Who knows what they might have agreed to?

[Daniel Gallup]

LIFTON SPREADS DISINFO ABOUT WHAT I SAID



Like I said, I am all ears on this. I listened to Horne, all 1800 pages worth. I don't think it was convincing.To me it underlined a problem we have in overselling things, like the Boyajian Report, like Madeleine Brown.

I want us to get specific and I want to hear the evidence. The time sure is ripe, is it not?

Jim, your lumping the Boyajian report with Madeline Brown is most curious. On the Ed Forum I challenged you on the Boyajian report and your review of Livingston's Kaleidoscope and you replied not a word. For at least a week I pointed out flaws in your thinking, expecting you to reply. But nothing came. Am I to construe this to mean that you agree with my challenges? Or do you expect your reputation as an author (and yes, I bought and am reading your book) to carry weight instead of carefully constructed arguments? Which is it? Or shall you lay bare in clear delineation why, despite the relatively negative view you gave Livingston's work, you find wisdom in Livingston at precisely the point where your foe Lifton stands to gain the most? Your review was woefully inadequate on this very point, and it is time to dig deeper, or so that is my take on the matter.

[Charles Drago]

I think Chicago is more important. In that case, there was a plot, and the fact that it went unreported and covered up was directly related to the Dallas successful hit.

I am of the firm opinion that there was no plot in Chicago -- at least no plot designed to result in an assassination of JFK in that city.

It was all about protecting the Dallas operation.

As I've written elsewhere:

For an alternative to the conventional take on what happened in Chicago, see my The Chicago Plot: A Hypothesis at

https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums...sis&highlight=

Writing in A Secret Order about multiple simultaneous but independent recruiting efforts in support of a talked-about invasion of Haiti, Hank Albarelli reveals the following:

"Soldier of fortune Loran Eugene Hall ... first encountered Thomas Davis in New Orleans about two years before the assassination. Davis also had dealings with Hall in 1963 in Los Angeles when he [Davis] was recruiting for his Haitian operation. Hall, surely not coincidentally, was also recruiting for what was most likely the same operation. Indeed, there is serious speculation, according to one former CIA operative, that Davis' Los Angeles operation was deliberately slipshod and high-profile by design so as to throw off FBI investigators from Hall's concurrent recruitment activities. Said the same official, who declined to be named in this book, 'It's a common ploy with CIA. Sometimes there can be 3 or 4 operations in play at one time but only one is actually fully planned and intended to go forward.'" [emphasis added by Drago]

The charade in Chicago certainly was "slipshod and high-profile". And I submit that such was indeed by design" as part of one of at least two faux attempts (Miami was another) "in play at one time." But "only one" -- Dallas -- was "actually planned and intended to go forward."

Let's not hijack this thread. If you'd care to join the discussion of the Chicago plot (and I hope that you will), please do so on the thread accessed via the above link.