John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee

[Karl Kinaski]

Quote Greg Burnham: Judyth Vary Baker in Exile Thread Ed-Forum, page 51.

(The thread mutated in a Armstrong vs Baker threat on that pages)

...if we are to accept Armstrong's account, the Oswald that Judyth knew was HARVEY not LEE. And the one Judyth claims to have known was (according to Armstrong) HARVEY (who could not drive) -- but who was known to Judyth (according to Judyth) as Lee (who could drive). Mind boggling--

Personally, I have a very difficult time accepting that any Soviet double-agent, or false defector, or infiltrator, or--in other words--SPY-- would not have been taught to drive for purposes of "cover story" if nothing else.

A LNter, can proof a CTer wrong on certain aspects. Parnell did so (if he is a LNter at all):

Quote Parnell:

The October 15, 1956 induction of "Lee" Oswald creates a huge problem for the Armstrong team. On that day "Lee" was fingerprinted and assigned serial number 1653230. In December of the same year he was photographed (popularly known as the 13-inch head photo which BTW also has been debunked) with his serial number displayed at the bottom of the picture. These two records disprove the Armstrong theory since the HSCA matched the fingerprints from October 1956 to prints taken of LHO in custody in Dallas and New Orleans in 1963. The problem is, those are supposed to be the prints of "Harvey" Oswald. Similarly, the December photo is said to be that of "Lee" while the HSCA photo panel proved using morphological data that it matched photos of "Harvey".

KK

The purpose of the HSCA was to HIDE the CIA's Oswald project, not shed any light on it. Jack White repeatedly told us that when he tried to introduce a photo montage of different Oswald faces, he was told by one of the HSCA attorneys that he would be charged with contempt if he did. Anything we learn from the HSCA (or the Warren Commission) about Oswald's intelligence connection is an accident, something they forgot to hide.

In 1996 former HSCA counsel Robert Tanenbaum testified to the ARRB about what the HSCA should have done, but didn't: "The major area, and I can't overemphasize this, focused on the government and what the government knew about Lee Harvey Oswald... and what the CIA was doing with Lee Harvey Oswald. And what he was doing in New Orleans with anti-Castro Cubans, rabid anti-Castro Cubans, and to get everything you could get from the government with respect to it. And how this government today could want to hold that information and feed the kind of anti-government feeling that results from non-disclosure is really beyond my comprehension."

There is clear evidence that both Oswalds were in the USMC. Gosh, can you think of any government agency that had the power to make sure the HSCA got the RIGHT fingerprints for Agent Oswald??? Golly, just couldn't happen, right? HSCA my ass....

Now why don't you tell me how two 6-year-old gunshot wounds disappeared from Agent Oswald's left arm?

Do I understand you right: whenever the HSCA is producing a document which not fit Armstrongs "Two long term Ossis Scenario", the HSCA is hiding something?

LOL

Sure the HSCA was hiding something: but not the Armstrong theorie, which is full of holes, distortions and slips. HARVEY AND LEE is a convincing book at first glance, but when you read it with a critical mind, it is Swiss cheese: like the PENTAGON PAPERS, or THE ZAPRUDER FILM.



BTW: The Klein chapter of HARVEY AND LEE is a good one. BUT the chapter only proves, that LHO had not ordered that gun. I am fine with that. I do not need to tie this fact to the two-long-term-ossis-scenario...

[David Josephs]

Karl - I agree that a big dose of authentication MUST be expected with a theory such as this...

I ask that you look at the following and ask yourself what exactly is going on...

This is a ship manifest taking me from Ping-Tung Taiwan back to Atsugi on October 6th... Lee H OSWALD is on this ship.

Next to it is the Sept 14th manifest when they LEFT from Atsugi for Taiwan... once again Lee H OSWALD is on this ship

Under that is a letter illustrating the conflict... and next to that the health records summary starting with September 16th while one of the Oswald's is at sea

Based on the DoD records from the Navy Oswald was in both Japan and Taiwan during his tour of duty... this is repeated in numerous "reports" and documents....
the ONLY time Oswald is said to be in Taiwan is during this time... Yet other DoD documents claim he stayed behind...

Finally, at the bottom - in classic FBI document preservation mode - is a FBI interview with a man who knew Oswald, knew he was taken to the ship to Taiwan (in bare feet and guarded)
says he saw little of Oswald while in Taiwan ("little" is not, not at all) and heard stories the fit Oswald exactly...

Karl - I'm good with there being a SLIGHT mistake about Oswald leaving Japan.... but his being on the return ship's Unit Diary... when he is supposedly being treated continuosly for STD in Japan
seems a bit much even for coincidence.

I also notice you do not address ANY of the images or testimonies I referenced... I'm not in this for a tit-for-tat discussion with you and you are entitled to you opinion based on the evidence you are aware of...
Robert doesn't just pull this out of thin air Karl.... and as with any theory about a clandestine operation -

Don't you suppose the entire idea is to make the left behind evidence of such a operation as ambiguous as possible - if any evidence is to be left behind at all? That you expect a side-by-side photo of Lee and Harvey both holding up a newspaper from that day is somewhat unrealistic, don't you think?

I've done so many comarison images and overlays of Lee and Harvey as to render the argument against virtually moot... Now, if you would, go to these exhibits and see that in every single case John Edward picks Lee from Harvey... and when asked about Thanksgiving 1962 he refers to the person as the man that "appears to be Lee Harvey Oswald in 1962"... not exactly a brother identifying his brother....
==========
Mr. JENNER - I show you an exhibit, a series of exhibits, first Commission Exhibit No. 281 and Exhibit No. 282 being some spread pages of an issue of Life magazine of February 21, 1964. I direct your attention first to the lower lefthand spread at .the bottom of the page. Do you recognize the area shown there?
Mr. PIC - No, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Do you see somebody in that picture that appears to be your brother?
Mr. PIC - This one here with the arrow.
Mr. JENNER - The one that has the printed arrow?
Mr. PIC - That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER - And you recognize that as your brother?
Mr. PIC - Because they say so, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Please, I don't want you to say--
Mr. PIC - No; I couldn't recognize that.
Mr. JENNER - Because this magazine says that it is.
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I couldn't recognize him from that picture.
Mr. JENNER - You don't recognize anybody else in the picture after studying it that appears to be your brother? When I say your brother now, I am talking about Lee.
Mr. PIC - No, sir.
Mr. JENNER - In the upper portion there are a series of photographs spread from left-hand page across to the right-hand page. Take those on the left which appears to be a photograph of three young men. Do you recognize the persons shown in that photograph?
Mr. PIC - Yes; I recognize ,this photograph, the people from left to right being Robert Oswald, the center one being Lee Oswald, and the third one being myself. This picture was taken at the house in Dallas when we returned from New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER - You mean from--when you came from New Orleans after being at the Bethlehem Orphanage Home?
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - And you went to Dallas?
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - It was taken in Dallas at or about that time?
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - The next one is prominent; in front is a picture of a young boy. There is a partially shown girl and apparently another boy with a striped shirt in the background. Do you recognize that picture?
Mr. PIC - Yes; I recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER - Do you have any impression as to when and where that was taken?
Mr. PIC - Just looking at the picture, I would guess first, second grade, maybe. I would have to guess at it.
Mr. JENNER - Then there is one immediately to the right of that, a young man in the foreground sitting on the floor, with his knees, legs crossed, and his arms also crossed. There are some other people apparently in the background.
Mr. PIC - I recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER - Does anything about the picture enable you to identify as to where that was taken?
Mr. PIC - No, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Then to the right there is a picture of two young men, the upper portion of the one young man at the bottom and then apparently a young man standing up in back of that person. Do you recognize either of those young people?
Mr. PIC - Yes; I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER - Is he the one to which the black arrow is pointing?
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Then right below that is a picture of a young man standing in front of an iron fence, which appears to be probably at a zoo. Do you recognize that?
Mr. PIC - Sir, from that picture, I could not recognize that that is Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER - That young fellow is shown there, he doesn't look like you recall Lee looked in 1952 and 1953 when you saw him in New York City?
Mr. PIC - No, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Commission Exhibit No. 284 do you recognize anybody in that picture that appears to be Lee Oswald? (DJ: THIS IS THE CLASSROOM PHOTO)
Mr. PIC - No, sir.
Mr. JENNER - There is a young fellow in the foreground-everybody else is facing the other way. He is in a pantomime, or grimace. Do you recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. PIC - No, sir; looking at that picture and I have looked at it several times--that looks more like Robert than it does Lee, to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER - All right. On Exhibit No. 286, the lower right-hand corner, there is another picture. Do you recognize that as your brother Lee in that picture?
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir; that is about how he looked when I seen him in 1962, his profile.
Mr. JENNER - Do you recognize the person, the lady to the right who is pointing her finger at him?
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I don't.
Mr. JENNER - Exhibit No. 287 is two figures, taking them from top to bottom and in the lower right-hand corner, do you recognize those?
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I don't.
Mr. JENNER - Neither one of them?
Mr. PIC - No, sir. The lower one appears to me to look like Robert rather than Lee. The upper one, unless they tell me that, I would never guess that that would be Lee, sir.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Exhibit No. 288, there is ill the lower left-hand corner, there is a reproduction of a service card and a reproduction, also, of a photograph with the head of a man. Do you recognize that?
Mr. PIC - That looks to me approximately how Lee Oswald looked when I seen him Thanksgiving 1962.
Mr. JENNER - Directing your attention to Exhibit, Commission Exhibit No. 289, do you recognize any of the servicemen shown in that picture as your brother Lee?
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I do not recognize them.
Mr. JENNER - Exhibit No. 290, the lower left-hand corner there is a photograph of a young lady and a young man. Do you recognize either of those persons?
Mr. PIC - He appears to me as Lee Harvey Oswald in 1962 when I seen him.
Mr. JENNER - And the lady?
Mr. PIC - She is his wife, Marina, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Commission Exhibit No. 291, at the bottom of the page, there is a picture of a young man handing out a leaflet, and another man to the left of him who is reaching out for it. Do you recognize the young man handing out the leaflet?
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I would be unable to recognize him.
Mr. JENNER - As to whether he was your brother?
Mr. PIC - That is correct.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc..._0413a.htm



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[Steve Minnerly]

Doesn't the existence of two Oswalds point to one of the most sinister implications in all of american history.

I could be completely wrong but the fact that there would be a doppelganger plan in the works 10 years before the assassination seems to indicate that black ops go extremely deep into the fabric of the national security state.

I mean if these guys are thinking that far ahead of the game it really boggles the mind. This is evil on a level that is right out of a Philips K. Dick novel. Its almost impossible to underestimate the way these guys are scheming and conspiring. Very chilling.

[Marlene Zenker]

Doesn't the existence of two Oswalds point to one of the most sinister implications in all of american history.

I could be completely wrong but the fact that there would be a doppelganger plan in the works 10 years before the assassination seems to indicate that black ops go extremely deep into the fabric of the national security state.

I mean if these guys are thinking that far ahead of the game it really boggles the mind. This is evil on a level that is right out of a Philips K. Dick novel. Its almost impossible to underestimate the way these guys are scheming and conspiring. Very chilling.

This doesn't mean they were plotting to kill JFK 10 years prior - it just means that this was another weapon in their arsenal - look a likes - who can be used in the future if necessary.

[Jim Hargrove]

Doesn't the existence of two Oswalds point to one of the most sinister implications in all of american history.

I could be completely wrong but the fact that there would be a doppelganger plan in the works 10 years before the assassination seems to indicate that black ops go extremely deep into the fabric of the national security state.

I mean if these guys are thinking that far ahead of the game it really boggles the mind. This is evil on a level that is right out of a Philips K. Dick novel. Its almost impossible to underestimate the way these guys are scheming and conspiring. Very chilling.

The CIA's Oswald project just started as spycraft. The idea was to give a Russian-speaking youth an American identity so that he could travel to Russia and secretly understand the language. I don't think the Russian's were fooled though. Marina seemed to specialize in meeting American defectors, because she also met Robert Webster, who had defected earlier. The Russians were quickly on to him, apparently, which must have depressed a young man who had been in training for this mission for 10 years or so.

There is little evidence that the Two Oswalds got entangled in the Kennedy assassination until the spring and summer of 1963.

[Ray Mitcham]

David,As you show in the above, isn't it strange that Os was being treated for Gonococchus contracted while "in the line of duty". What kind of line of duty would an ordinary marine be doing to contract gonorrhea?

[Steve Minnerly]

Doesn't the existence of two Oswalds point to one of the most sinister implications in all of american history.

I could be completely wrong but the fact that there would be a doppelganger plan in the works 10 years before the assassination seems to indicate that black ops go extremely deep into the fabric of the national security state.

I mean if these guys are thinking that far ahead of the game it really boggles the mind. This is evil on a level that is right out of a Philips K. Dick novel. Its almost impossible to underestimate the way these guys are scheming and conspiring. Very chilling.

This doesn't mean they were plotting to kill JFK 10 years prior - it just means that this was another weapon in their arsenal - look a likes - who can be used in the future if necessary.

I fully agree however to be manipulating a child at Oswalds age seems to indicate very long range planning

EDIT - At the same time isn't it possible they could have been thinking about the need for A double to be used in A domestic assassination at some point in the future ( not necessarily THE Kennedy assassination ). Very spooky stuff in my opinion no pun intended.

[Albert Rossi]

David,As you show in the above, isn't it strange that Os was being treated for Gonococchus contracted while "in the line of duty". What kind of line of duty would an ordinary marine be doing to contract gonorrhea?

I believe Dick Russell discusses this, based on Nagell's experiences in Japan during the time. Oswald may have already been involved in espionage and frequenting the Queen Bee in Tokyo, which was notorious for the circle of prostitutes doubling as spies which frequented it. I think I'm recalling this correctly, though don't quote me. But I'm sure something to this effect is dealt with in The Man Who Knew Too Much.

[Steve Minnerly]

Yeah i think Albert is correct.

I don't have a lot of books but i do have "The Man Who Knew Too Much" ( first edition ) and Im recalling the same thing.

[David Josephs]

Doesn't the existence of two Oswalds point to one of the most sinister implications in all of american history.

I could be completely wrong but the fact that there would be a doppelganger plan in the works 10 years before the assassination seems to indicate that black ops go extremely deep into the fabric of the national security state.

I mean if these guys are thinking that far ahead of the game it really boggles the mind. This is evil on a level that is right out of a Philips K. Dick novel. Its almost impossible to underestimate the way these guys are scheming and conspiring. Very chilling.

Steve...

It is VERY important to remember that Angleton was running all sorts of operations as was the rest of the CIA.

John does not go so far as to say this was designed from the start to end with the killing of JFK... on the contrary. It appears that Harvey was being prepared for some projects related to gathering info either in Russia when he defected...
back in the USA when infultrating groups like the FPCC or the opposite by spying on Bannister/Shaw/Ferrie....

He was an asset to be used by the grand chess masters... as was Nagel, Harry Dean, etc.... who happened to be in the wrong place at the right time.


Dallas comes on the heels of Tampa and Chicago... sniper teams where discovered at both locations and the motorcades where either cancelled or the entire trip called off.

Arthur Vallee was the Chicago Oswald.... (what you may find interesting as I have.. the reports coming out of the Chicago FBI are ALL about the Vallee arrest and DENYING that snipers were "discovered")

I found these in the FBI Reports Section http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...ocId=10401 by looking at all the reports coming out of Chicago's Office.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...elPageId=2 commission Document #47 is the first one and there's many more.



As you find out what forces squashed the Vallee/Sniper team conflict within the FBI/SS/CIA ranks... I think the repeated mention of VALLEE in reports titled: INTERNAL SECURITY - RUSSIA
is something that begins to lead back to the creation of the back stories needed to support the cover-up. The docs are a great read - you can feel the FBI bending over backward saying ONLY VALLEE and nothing else went on...
(btw - the SS destroyed all their November documents just days before asked to produce them - convenient right?)


It appears, from John's work, that LEE is helping the Dallas/NOLA group set Harvey up.... and between the very late 201 file opening, the Odio incident and the CIA's Mexico charade in early October
we see the shift from Oswald the asset to Oswald the scapegoat...

Only my .02

Live and learn
DJ




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