Reasonable doubts about Lee Harvey Oswald

[C. Savastano]

to P. Dragoo and D. Joseph

Finally your claim emerges, well first I am not trying to convince you he fired, you apparently see attacks where they do not exist. Also as I stated before I am not auditioning for your acceptance some have complimented and agreed with me, and some have taken my article as an attack on their beliefs. Beyond saying what I found was from using evidence from the official record, it seems your in a one man race, you will win, for no one is competing with you. Perhaps go over the major claims and prove they are wrong instead of trying to find contention in any idea you can. Anyway pace yourself I will be posting another article for you to attack.

[Keith Millea]

Damn,I just can't help it......lol

Did you know:

John Barlow is co-founder of EFF,(Electronic frontier foundation)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_...Foundation

Did you know:

Surrounded by ominous heavy dark clouds,a rainbow appeared at the Furthur concert here Wednesday.A day trippers delight.....Spirits lifted HIGH...

From a few months ago;



Black Throated Wind

Lyrics By: John Barlow
Music By: Bob Weir
Bringing me down, I'm running aground
Blind in the light of the interstate cars
Passing me by, the buses and semis
Plunging like stones from a slingshot on Mars


But I'm here by the road, bound to the load
That I picked up in ten thousand cafes and bars
Alone with the rush of the drivers who won't pick me up
The highway, the moon, the clouds, and the stars


The black throated wind keeps on pouring in
With its words of a life where nothing is new
Ah, Mother American Night, I'm lost from the light
Oh I'm drowning in you


I left Saint Louis, City of Blues
In the midst of a storm I'd rather forget
I tried to pretend it came to an end
'Cause you weren't the woman I once thought I'd met


But I can't deny, that times have gone by
Where I never had doubts or thoughts of regrets
And I was a man when all this began
Who wouldn't think twice about being there yet


The black throated wind whispering sin,
And it speaks of a life that passes like dew
It forced me to see
That you've done better by me
Better by me than I've done by you


Now what's to found, racing around
You carry your pain wherever you go
Full of the blues, and trying to lose
You ain't going to learn what you don't want to know


So I give you my eyes, and all of their lies
Please help them to learn as well as to see
And capture a glance, whoa and make it a dance
Of looking at you looking at me


The black throated wind keeps on pouring in
With its words of a life that could almost be true
Ah, Mother American Night, here comes the light
I'm turning around that's what I'm going to do
Going back home that's what I'm gonna do

[David Josephs]

So I give you my eyes, and all of their lies
Please help them to learn as well as to see
Capture a glance and make it a dance
Of looking at you looking at me.


In 1984 I was at Ventura Fairgrounds when they went into Terrapin before space...
as it progressed and started to crescendo - clouds started to appear on a sunny day
as the ending jam built and built the day grew darker and stormy
as drums picked it up at the end the boys went crazy, the sky was now dark with rain clouds
as Space brought us even deeper and it started to rain, light CA rain
as Space began to finally wind down the rain let up
as Space continued to coalesce into a tune the clouds began to dispurse
and as the first bright rays of the returning sunlight hit the stadium

you KNOW the boys broke into Morning Dew... and 15,000 people stood silently and looked around at each other
we had a unified experience of having taken part in a natural phenomenon

we all smiled and all felt as one.

Cheers Keith
DJ

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[Jim Hackett II]

While many say the "Dead" can't be the "Dead" without Garcia,
I heard the same thing when "Pigpen" was er, replaced.

Further carries on the spirit.
Thanks Keith and all, Always time for reminders.

For Tracy:
Many questions, I met Gunny Hathcock, did I "know" him? No.
I heard this statement first hand though it was not in answer to my own query.
A "lecture" break for lunch was the setting, with about 15 or so other people, a small segment of the "audience" overall.
Where and why a gathering of people I cannot say, save this it was 1974.

I know not of Mr. Robert's sources, though I do have his "Kill Zone".
Hathcock's views never required validation for me.
It rings true to other things I have heard elsewhere.

How impressed was I? When you are learning from one of the good guys it pays to keep your ears wide open.
Becoming "one with the environment" when doing anything requiring near perfection was one of the primary things I brought away from a day near one I admired much.
It applies in flying R/C Sailplanes - to find the "good" air and become one with the sky is not easy but rewarding, though rare to attain. Thermaling is incredible.
Th..tttth...that's all folks.

[Phil Dragoo]

I've since seen the Hathcock interview on youtube, had previously read One Shot, One Kill, always found this of note:

Hathcock on pages 89-90 of Kill Zone: A Sniper Looks at Dealey Plaza, by Craig Roberts:


According to my friend, Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock, the former senior instructor for the U.S. Marine Corps Sniper Instructor School at Quantico, Virginia, it could not be done as described by the FBI investigators. Gunny Hatchcock, now retired, is the most famous American military sniper in history. In Vietnam he was credited with 93 confirmed killsand a total of over 300 actual kills counting those unconfirmed. He now conducts police SWAT team sniper schools across the country. When I called him to ask if he had seen the Zapruder film, he chuckled and cut me off. "Let me tell you what we did at Quantico," he began. "We reconstructed the whole thing: the angle, the range, the moving target, the time limit, the obstacles, everything. I don't know how many times we tried it, but we couldn't duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did. Now if I can't do it, how in the world could a guy who was a non-qual on the rifle range and later only qualified marksman' do it?"

Hathcock was alive when Kill Zone was published, and as Roberts is still alive, apparently the former didn't have a problem with the latter.

We saw The Grateful Dead in the stadium in Boulder in 1972 with 35,000 of our friends. We had a squirt gun of gin and tonic and they played from noon to six

punctuated by periodical rain at such times stepping back under plastic over scaffold

Was wearing the shirt Alice made me of the surviving blue field of the flag in the burned out Chimayo adobe of some Big Apple refugees

English class with Mr. Johnson was interrupted by Principal Ralph Clevenger to announce the president has been shot, has died, the buses will take you home

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[Jim Hackett II]

But then again I never ever had any need to confirm his truth. Never a scintilla of doubt about Gunny. Not Ever.
Reality as possible things and impossible things of Dealy Plaza confirmed all of it to me long, long ago.

The scuttlebutt in the enlisted ranks and spoken in quiet respectful tones was this:

"That man should be wearing the Congressional Medal of Honor but he wouldn't keep his mouth shut about the truth so the HQMC (8th and I in the Beltway)
downgraded his award to the Navy Cross". In that case the scuttlebutt has the ring of truth to me, then and now.

I have no way of knowing if this were truth or rumor, but I never had any doubt of his veracity.

The man was respected everywhere he went.

Thanks Phil.

[Tracy Riddle]

I'm not questioning Hathcock, I'm questioning Roberts. It would just be nice if someone else could confirm the Quantico reenactment story. I'd love for it to be true. I just have to wonder why Hathcock himself never told the story publicly?

[Jim Hackett II]

Somethings cannot be disclosed in this manner.
Nor at this time.

After the revolution, maybe.... that sunlight disinfectant could have thousands of cockroaches skittering for cover or the Caymans or where ever.

Not speaking for the Gunny that cannot answer your question, only for myself.
Nor Mr. Roberts I cannot speak for him either.

Also I don't need all the shooters for the sim to come forward to accept the fact that it happened.
Even the F.B.I. did it publicly. Or pretended to simulate the Fable.

Why would one not allow that the best snipers in this nation would run the sim also, though not publicly from behind the DOD curtains.
Methods and means and such.
Training how to halt the op maybe.
Counter-sniping is and was a method even in 1963.

Again More than 'Nuff Said.

And then we have the referenced Hathcock video. I too have seen it.
Not on the 'net but I bet the same as Phil saw.

Case Closed - hee hee hee.

[C. Savastano]

Tracy I agree a high standard must be met. Perhaps we agree that since it appeared in a published book for decades, plenty of opportunity existed for those who may not believe this claim to make a legal declaration against it, or sue Roberts previously, it likely is true. We can never have absolute verification that will please everyone, but it appears to reasonably be true based on the existing evidence.

As for Mr. H

JH: As for claims of "Somethings cannot be disclosed in this manner.Nor at this time."

CAS: I disagree with this vagary, especially after previous claims with proof were criticized.

JH: "After the revolution, maybe.... that sunlight disinfectant could have thousands of cockroaches skittering for cover or the Caymans or where ever."

The Revolution? I'm sorry to break to those who harbor some imagined belief of a magical day when all tyranny will be cast aside and all facts will be known to them, that somehow with claims of truth, the truth is proven. Guess again! The truth is not just surfing the net for the parts that support your theories! The truth is not beliefs, its proven by evidence, the complete record not just portions that support this revolutionary fantasy some harbor. The truth must be pursued, in libraries, interviews, videos, and in official documents, tens of thousands of pages, the truth definitely will not revealed by ham handed declarations without support from the entire record, both official documents and independent research. If you ignore evidence because you disagree with it, that is not investigation, that is self deception. It s easy to make sweeping and grand statements, its harder to actually prove what you say, and do the work. We had a Revolution, it was a few centuries ago, now we actually have laws and try to peaceably change things. Perhaps instead of a revolution we can just agree on basic facts, and recognize, despite the claims of you and others, you believe, but you cannot offer evidence to prove it. By evidence I mean repeated items that can be viewed and critically assessed by others without a leap of faith. You don't speak to my claims, you complain because I will not believe you without overwhelming evidence. I provided facts from both independent credible researchers and the official record, truth is not just one or the other, it is a mixture of all proven facts. Facts support your ideas, insults and speculation degrade them.

Ah Hee, Hee, Hee.

C.S.

[Phil Dragoo]

Jim

The interview is great. The sense of the man and his special calling is well worth the investment in time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVJONj95so4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiReoU_Edo4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmg9VHjlx1M

Craig Roberts' site is http://www.riflewarrior.com/

In addition to Kill Zone, he co-wrote The Dead Witnesses with John Armstrong

Richard Belzer and David Wayne refer to that book repeatedly in their excellent Hit List