"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn
"If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and never will" - Frederick Douglass
Thanks Phil. I've but begun....from too much energy at the WTC towers...eventually to too much evil in the hearts of some 'Other 19++++'
An interesting new aspect, I'll soon post some more detailed information on, might explain the timing and events of the before-the-fact [two] announcements of the fall of WTC-7. If one times the loss of regular radar tracking for United 93 at its average speed, it would have been at WTC-7 at just the time of those two close anomalous and false reports of its destruction. Its target might not have been D.C....but WTC-7. It seems the first explosions in WTC-7 also were just before the false reports [weakening main beams for what was to come in the way of CD - only awaiting the 'excuse'.] As it seems there was to be another plane headed toward DC [White House or Capitol], there must have been another plane in the plans, that went awry and was then hidden....as was so much else.
Yes, it reeks of complex false-flag operation. What unzipped on 9-11 were not the towers, but Constitutional democracy, rule of law, our freedoms and Peace - among other things; all to be replaced by lies, COG trumping the Constitution, Wars and more Wars, loss of our freedoms and rights - and all ongoing.....Boston and Dallas, indeed!
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn
"If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and never will" - Frederick Douglass
"You were trained poorly, in Physics, logic and/or as a forum provocateur. How do YOU explain molten steel - lots of it from building collapses from fires not hot enough to melt steel? Not to mention nanothermite residues, beams thrown laterally hundreds of yards, timed flashes and squibs....and all the failures that led up to the phony non-interception of the planes [which did not bring down the buildings]? You're using the standard approach of not looking at the full picture of all that happened...and trying to cast doubt on each itty bitty thing with NO logic and against the laws of Physics!
On just the pulverization of the concrete.....alone...."
I will not respond to the pasted links.
I am not trained as a physicist....neither are you! or I dare say anyone posting on this site. I am trained and licensed as an architect and have studied basic structure, statics and so forth and have a basic, though more than members of this forum... understanding of buildings and structural systems. I am not a chemist, nor a forensic investigator as is the case for the members of this forum.
I rely on the visuals in the public record and the analysis and conclusions in some cases of experts who seem to have done rigorous work. There are many who APPEAR to be rigorous and scientific, but are not. Clearly it may be difficult to determine who is the real deal with real solid data and who is not. It comes down to which "expert" you choose to believe.
NIST has clearly made errors.
Chandler has made errors
Hoffman has
Szamboti has
We all make errors. All errors are not equal.
I don't have to explain every single artifact which was the RESULT of an extreme catastrophic event involving 1.5 million tons of buildings contents and all sorts of energy sources within them. These events whether CD or not were of a scale never before seen and so we have nothing in the historical record to refer to. It does not seem unusual that the release of so much energy applied to so much mass in such as short interval would produce all manner of unusual and unexpected
results.
There has been no determination what the flowing liquid seen under the pile was. We have seen no material that hardened... such as an "ingot" to analyze. There are multiple possible materials which would glow and flow under high heat conditions (not determined how hot it was) and one cannot conclude what the material may have been. The same caveats apply to what poured out of a single corner in 2WTC on the 78th floor... the location where the engine of the plane exited the building.
Nanothermite residue remains a speculation. It has not been confirmed and may be the result of poor technique. The experiments have yet to be reproduced by other labs as is standard scientific protocol.
There were no "beams" thrown hundreds of yards. The furthest steel from a WTC building came from 1WTC's west face and was from the facade panels of the 84th floor and landed about 450' from the west face.
There were no timed flashes or squibs. That is YOUR conception. Any series of events exist in time and one can measure the intervals between them. This in itself shows no causality or relation between them.
Can't even begin to comment on "non interception of planes" other than to say we would have expected our defenses to have been able to respond to a hijacking(s). I don't know what the in place procedures were at the time were or even what they are now. Do you expect a fighter to be scrambled intercept and shoot the hijacked plane down? Whatever the procedures at the time, they were ineffective. Was it incompetence? Confusion? Ineffective response procedures? All of the above? Or was there a willful action to not stop the hijacked planes from hitting their targets?
No single factor or thing brought the towers down. Multiple sequential things or factors did. The plane damage was one of them, the fuel they carried igniting inside was another, the contents burning inside was another, the loss of fire protection from the plane crash debris impacting it was another, the design of the structure was another, the failure to fight the fires once started was another, the energized systems inside the building at the time was another (high tension wiring). None of these factors alone would have led to the building coming down. But all of them together in sequence apparently did.
The one who is not looking at the entire picture...the complexity and all the contributing factors acting synergistically is YOU. It is you and others who look at some result or anomaly and use it as being ONLY possible when some unspecified CD was used. Where is the EVIDENCE of what nanothermite attacked? How was that done? Are those the timed flashes.... so few to destroy such massive structures with thousands of columns and connections?
You are in fantasy land because of your incredulity and lack of understand of physics, engineering and the actual data from the buildings and the event... And you do this. And you take this extreme irrational position because you hate and don't trust the government and the media. I agree that the government and the media is not to be trusted... but that is not license to make up your own fantasies to suit your political views.
What unzipped on 9-11 were not the towers, but Constitutional democracy, rule of law, our freedoms and Peace - among other things; all to be replaced by lies, COG trumping the Constitution, Wars and more Wars, loss of our freedoms and rights - and all ongoing.....Boston and Dallas, indeed!
As with the executive action vis-a-vis JFK, the 9/11 incident was part of the darkening horde of ends-justifies-means cum blind greed in which core principles of human freedom and its tenuous gains within CONUS were trampled.
As you present, there is a panoply of Evidence of Revision in this edition of Northwoods.
What unzipped on 9-11 were not the towers, but Constitutional democracy, rule of law, our freedoms and Peace - among other things; all to be replaced by lies, COG trumping the Constitution, Wars and more Wars, loss of our freedoms and rights - and all ongoing.....Boston and Dallas, indeed!
As with the executive action vis-a-vis JFK, the 9/11 incident was part of the darkening horde of ends-justifies-means cum blind greed in which core principles of human freedom and its tenuous gains within CONUS were trampled.
As you present, there is a panoply of Evidence of Revision in this edition of Northwoods.
Not really... there is evidence that those already entrenched in the establishment (MIC, media etc.) used 9/11 to solidify and advance their agenda of full spectrum dominance. But they spin every disaster toward that goal and don't have to conspire to create them. They did it with Fukishima, Katrina, Sandy you name it. When there is a opportunity to exploit... the same crowd is ready to roll out some new nasty exploitative and repressive measures.
Northwoods was apparently vetoed because it was perhaps deemed too crazy. Lots of Dr. Strangelove types in the DOD.
24-09-2013, 06:56 AM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2013, 09:15 AM by Peter Lemkin.)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5305[/ATTACH] Got 'ya J.O., loud and clear. The events of 9-11 were just like the officials said [except the building unzipped, rather than NIST's version]. OKC and Dallas too were just as the officials told us. Just in awe of your command of Deep Politics and your eagerness to set us all straight.... You have not a clue of any part of 9-11 IMO and certainly fail to look at the total picture. Tell us, before making any more posts, how you explain: the lack of fighter response; the fact that many of the '19' 'terrorists' are still alive; that most of them couldn't fly well and were connected to US and allied militaries or intel agencies - two were babysat by an FBI informant in San Diego; when fighters were scrambled they were sent out to sea; transponders went off in 'blind zones' of the Norad/Flight Control radar system; Atta after putting all the incriminating evidence in his bag, that bag didn't make the flight to be found as incriminating evidence - and when Atta and his pals were not reading their Korans, they were fornicating, taking cocaine and drinking whiskey while watching lapdancers; Chaney lied about when he went to the bunker and the stand down order; those companies in the towers hit had bosses connected to the companies that did the upgrading on the fireproofing and elevators [had access to the central core to plant explosives] or had things to hide with the tower destruction; Asbestos removal ordered for the towers would have cost billions - but instead a pretty profit was made on the towers and no asbestos abatement was needed [done for free]; many had foreknowledge of the events and the collapses; the planes were obviously automatically guided to their targets; neither pilots nor hijacker were flying the planes; the evidence was quickly removed; too much energy was expended than was available from gravity - by a factor of about 3 or 4; all the hallmarks of CD are present in all three towers; nanothermite residue [oxidized and not] were found in quantity; no plane hit the Pentagon - or not a normal passenger plane; Flight 93 was shot down; the cell phone calls were mostly fakes; no terrorists were on the flight manifests nor were their DNA found - yet their passports survived what the towers couldn't; men were seen picking up pieces of whatever hit the Pentagon - against all rules of crash investigation procedures; the part of the Pentagon hit killed and destroyed those working and their books on the missing billions in the Pentagon; pulverization of desks, dividers, computers, phones, toilets, pipes, cables, persons, gypsum board and cement to DUST - all but steel beams destroyed - and many of those beams fired laterally hundreds of years or bent like pretzels without cracks - due to the intense heat; Destruction of WTC-7 destroyed the Enron and other financial scandal files and lawsuits - yet the buildings spooks [DIA, FBI, CIA, IRS, others] had time and foreknowledge to remove things from their offices and the huge safe in below ground - and the gold from under another WTC building; witnesses who spoke against the official version have been threatened, a few killed; the dancing Israeli agents celebrated and filmed what they knew would happen. Their panel truck was said to have had explosives, yet they were not tried, only deported; high-level conspirators mentioned in 'Another 19' and other articles/books amazingly didn't go to work in the towers that day, if they worked there; power outages just before the events, along with elevator upgrades and new fireproofing - the last on the EXACT floors that were hit on both towers - and the companies involved connected to those suspected of planning the attacks - all insiders in government or big-business and all knowing one another with corporate and personal interconnections; the FBI took 85 videos of what hit the Pentagon and released only two doctored videos - after being shamed into it - they showed photoshopping; the anti-missile batteries at the Pentagon didn't fire at the 'attacker'; Rumsfeld was AWOL and helping the injured rather than fighting the 'attack' on the USA; the President was left unprotected, and even threatened with 'Angel is Next and that the launch codes were know to unknown others; COG was instituted and has never been called off; that the wars after 9-11 and the unPatriot Act were all planed and printed prior - ready to go - and the Anthrax attacks targeted those most likely to block passage; one of the planes said to be destroyed on 9-11 was still flying after; there is some evidence of plane switches in Cleveland; we are lied to by officials and shills about the molten metal and explosions seen, heard, and in evidence by non-officials; there were planted actors to tell TV news the official story; twice WTC-7 was said to fall hours before it did; 30+ military and intel exercises that day or the days prior had removed most fighter planes and injected false radar blips the day of - some were almost practicing scenarios of what happened; some of the most essential persons to really prevent the attack just happened to be away that day - or those in position were there on their first to third day on the job; tapes of flight control were destroyed!; black boxes couldn't be found, but paper passports could be - and only those that would support the official fairytale; Doomsday E4B planes were seen circling over NYC and the White House/Pentagon - but denied; FAA and all other agencies have refused to prove that any of the named planes actually were used by refusing to give the serial numbers of the parts they claim found; the 'investigations' were controlled by insiders and were non-investigations - persons needed to be called to testify were not and those that did were not bound by oath; and on and on and on - I could name another 1000 easy, by why bother - you are not engaging in an informed debate, IMHO;....you are just endlessly trying to enter in DOUBT for doubt sake, stamping your feet and saying "NO, NO, NO, it was all as the officials said it was but for my unzip 'theory'"....we read you loud and clear.....either confused; unable to see the full picture and the evidence; unable to connect the dots...or.....::.....
How many books on 9-11 have you read?! I've read well over 50. I've looked at most of the videos and thousands of photos, read testimonies and looked at the scientific reports and watched the full videos of 5 conferences on 9-11. The official version is a tissue of lies and related EXACTLY and DIRECTLY to OKC, the first WTC bombing, Iran-Contra, and Dallas, among MANY others.....that is what Deep Political Analysis allows me to see. I'm not impressed with your '9-11-Commission-Innocence-Project', to borrow a phrase and alter it slightly.
Kindly, address the above points and stop just entering in doubt for doubt's sake. For now, I'll not go over the ways in which the WTC-1,2,7 broke the laws of physics [which as a scientist I am 100% sure]....let's hear your overall view of 9-11 and why you push the official version of that snake oil here. What is your agenda? How did so many coincidences and first time in history events happen in one day and Que Bono? Who had the means, motive and access? And why, if you believe the official version is correct did you attempt to get close to R. Gage head of A&E for 911 Truth - a 9-11 Truth organization?!
I'm waiting for your responses to EACH point..then I'll have more new ones.::
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn
"If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and never will" - Frederick Douglass
How many books on 9-11 have you read?! I've read well over 50. I've looked at most of the videos and thousands of photos, read testimonies and looked at the scientific reports and watched the full videos of 5 conferences on 9-11. The official version is a tissue of lies and related EXACTLY and DIRECTLY to OKC, the first WTC bombing, Iran-Contra, and Dallas, among MANY others.....that is what Deep Political Analysis allows me to see. I'm not impressed with your '9-11-Commission-Innocence-Project', to borrow a phrase and alter it slightly.
Kindly, address the above points and stop just entering in doubt for doubt's sake. For now, I'll not go over the ways in which the WTC-1,2,7 broke the laws of physics [which as a scientist I am 100% sure]....let's hear your overall view of 9-11 and why you push the official version of that snake oil here. What is your agenda? How did so many coincidences and first time in history events happen in one day and Que Bono? Who had the means, motive and access? And why, if you believe the official version is correct did you attempt to get close to R. Gage head of A&E for 911 Truth - a 9-11 Truth organization?!
I'm waiting for your responses to EACH point..then I'll have more new ones.
I am not going to respond to what you consider a point (dot) you have in your picture.
I don't know how many 9/11 books I have read... less than a handful. I have seen most of the online vids and have several CDs and attended several 9/11 events. I think..I am well aware of the positions of the various 9/11 advocates... Gage, Jones, Harrit, Wood, Chandler, Hoffman, Barrett, Griffin, CIT, Khalezov, Szamboti etc. As I wrote I was surprised at how the towers came down and wanted an explanation which made sense to me. The USG was not interested in this and eventually NIST and the 9/11 commission produced reports which simply served to support the a typically aggressive but not unexpected policy of the hawkish Bush administration which populated the halls of power with Neocons. I opposed the post 9/11 wars as I had opposed them all since Vietnam.
As a result of the failure of the USG to supply a reasonable explanation to ME about why the towers came down as they did.... I turned to AE911T as an architect assuming they would take this on and provide the explanation I was looking for and signed their petition asking for a new investigation. At the time I was only mildly aware of the truth movement's claims. I had a distrust of official pronouncements and was aware of how intel's actions in the assassinations of Allende and Mosedegh and so forth were covered up. I read Agee and several other books, followed Sibel Edmonds and read John Perkins and Naomi Klien and Naomi Wolff and had been a supporter and listener to WBAI since the 60s.
I explained how I volunteered to help Gage when I met him at the first 9/11 event I attended in 2009. At that date I was not well informed about the truth case for CD and the inside job. Over the Fall over 2009 through the Spring of 2010 I read and saw as much as the materials I could.
The truth case was not conclusive. There was ambiguity at best. Their (false) certainty was not warranted. I discovered some incorrect statements which were used as evidence. I soon realized that all positions about the event were based on what was called evidence and that this was usually subjected to interpretation. The solution/explanation was evidence starved. Why this was is something I can't explain except that the hawks/neocons had no interest in details and simply wanted to roll out their plains for war and the New American Century.
The truth movement saw this as the proof of a false flag... I read it as an analysis of what the Hawks wanted to see - full spectrum dominance of the US by use of the military... a think tank paper which was intended to (and successfully did) drive US policy.
Most of the 9/11 truth materials are repetitious and rarely is there anything new. Gage does the exact same dog and pony show in his presentations. I've attended enough 9/11 truth conferences to know that the presentations are always the same and the audience is filled with 9/11 supporters and hardly any with no opinion or people who are well informed and support the official account of 9/11.
In Spring of 2010 after I left AE911T because they could not abide my independent thinking and without a resounding support of all their bullet points I was characterized as a spy and infiltrator, dis info agent and worse. It was really bizarre behavior and resembled McCarthyite behavior by a group who had "truth" in their name. These groups were no interested in truth, but advancing their VIEW of a CD inside job false flag.
The case for CD has never been made and no evidence for it presented. It's a case of incredulity because the truther can't believe that buildings can collapse from almost any cause except placed devices. They are wrong. Several try to come up with smoke and mirror explanation which sound and appear as technical. These are all flawed for one reason or another...usually flawed observations and data, ignoring data, and assumptions about conditions which were not present. All this is possible because NIST has not collected and made available all the data to properly analyze the collapses.
However there are explanations which do not required devices and some of those that do, such as mini nukes and directed energy weapons have clearly been shown to be wrong.
I don't dispute that officials lie and also engage in wrong doing and cover this (and incompetency), and protect the old boys all the time. We have an accountability problem in this country. The elite and powerful are allowed to escape justice and accountability. We see this in the recent financial collapse ion the mortgage industry and the trading of financial instruments. Corruption is not punished.
The burden of proof of a CD is upon those who make the claim... So make your case and avoid the socio political in your arguments. I've not been convinced by those I've read or heard to date.
As far as deep politics go... I would leave this motivation out of the technical explanation. Once it has been determined what happened... then who was behind it can be identified.
I am not an agent... just an interested person with some time to devote to this. But it's becoming a waste of time because of the endless repetition. I don't excuse the USG and believe they did obfuscate about 9/11. I have seen no convincing case for CD.
Interesting little 911 tidbit.....there are SO many.
The late Captain E.J. Toner at one point joined in on some of the very long threads that I had running on some internet forums about the 911 hoax. Captain Toner was not only a retired jumbo jet pilot but he was also a jumbo jet flight instructor. He did not believe the official 911 story. We were discussing whether the planes on 9/11 had the built-in capacity to remotely take over the controls from the pilot rendering him unable to control his own aircraft. Captain T said that was possible. He said "pilots would be the last to know". Those were his exact words. He then telephoned Boeing. He identified himself and asked them if the planes had that capacity on 911 or had it at the present time (this was around 2007). They told him "that information is classified".
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn
"If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and never will" - Frederick Douglass
Peter Lemkin Wrote:Interesting little 911 tidbit.....there are SO many.
The late Captain E.J. Toner at one point joined in on some of the very long threads that I had running on some internet forums about the 911 hoax. Captain Toner was not only a retired jumbo jet pilot but he was also a jumbo jet flight instructor. He did not believe the official 911 story. We were discussing whether the planes on 9/11 had the built-in capacity to remotely take over the controls from the pilot rendering him unable to control his own aircraft. Captain T said that was possible. He said "pilots would be the last to know". Those were his exact words. He then telephoned Boeing. He identified himself and asked them if the planes had that capacity on 911 or had it at the present time (this was around 2007). They told him "that information is classified".
The shadow is a moral problem that challenges the whole ego-personality, for no one can become conscious of the shadow without considerable moral effort. To become conscious of it involves recognizing the dark aspects of the personality as present and real. This act is the essential condition for any kind of self-knowledge.
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