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After fifty years...
#1
Is there much, if anything that everyone can agree on, as being *fact*?
I mean, unarguable, indisputable fact? This of course excludes Lone Nut
ideas. I'm speaking strictly of agreement amongst those who agree that JFK's murder
was in fact, the result of a conspiracy.

I mean this as a sincere question. I've wondered this for some time now.
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#2
Universally agreed: There were at least two shooters.


darrell curtis Wrote:is there much, if anything that everyone can agree on, as being *fact*?
I mean, unarguable, indisputable fact? This of course excludes lone nut
ideas. I'm speaking strictly of agreement amongst those who agree that jfk's murder
was in fact, the result of a conspiracy.

I mean this as a sincere question. I've wondered this for some time now.
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#3
The autopsy was faked.
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#4
Things that EVERYONE on the conspiracy side agrees with? There probably isn't anything, except that the Warren Commission didn't tell the whole story.

Even the idea that there was more than one shooter is not universally held. Some people believe Oswald did all the shooting, but there was a conspiracy behind him (Castro, Mafia, etc).
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#5
Cover up.
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx

"He would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies. When asked in court whether she knew that Lord Astor had denied having sex with her.

“I think it would be a good idea” Ghandi, when asked about Western Civilisation.
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#6
There are many and I suggest you take the time to read some of the better books on the JFK Assassination. It is the Kool-Aide of the Official Propaganda that 'we'll never know; its all too complex and confusing'....blah, blah, blah.

It would take me hours to list all the indisputable and agreed upon facts; known and documented, can't be doubted by any sane person who honestly spends some time on this matter.....and then I'd still have left many out.

There was a conspiracy, a rather large one. It was home-grown [American].
There were multiple shooter teams.
Oswald was not a shooter of anyone.
Owsald had been a false-defector to the USSR
Several persons were pretending to be Oswald and one was a long-term double.
Oswald was an intelligence-related agent and used as a patsy.
Ruby had the job to silence the patsy [or pretend to do so] so there would be no trial or truth from the dead patsy.
Some in the DPD were involved in the conspiracy and the cover-up.
Oswald tried to contact by phone one of his controllers, but the call was not allowed to go through, nor was he allowed a lawyer. The plan was to have him dead ASAP.
That conspiracy was very high up, but also used many low-level mechanics.
There was a cover-up of massive proportions.
The cover-up was also at the highest levels.
That cover-up continues today, actively.
The autopsy was faked - massively - and controlled utterly.
Witness testimony was filtered, altered and/or deleted.
Some who were not part of the assassination directly had pre-knowledge of it.
Most witnesses in the Plaza felt that shots were fired from the N. Knoll. Others felt shots came from multiple locations - as they did.
The magic bullet theory was a knowing fraud and part of the cover-up.
None of the WC believed they were telling the truth. Two openly complained and voiced doubt. One died mysteriously.
Every President since has known the official version was a Big Lie.
The entire scenario, along with pre-faked BYPs and other stage props, as well as who would be the patsy were pre-planned. Most went to plan; not all.
The Plaza was full of operatives with radios, guns, lookouts, and others.
Over 200 people eventually died to silence what they knew, saw, did related to JFKs Assassination.
The Warren Commission was a cover-up, not an investigation.
Dulles and Ford made sure the CIA and FBI controlled the Commission.
The Assassination was actually a coup d'etat.
The clever plot involved stage props, magic shows, actors, as well as the mechanics.
Many persons and agencies were blackmailed into silence and/or participation in the cover-up.
Many divergent groups who hated JFK for their own overlapping reasons had members from within them used, knowingly or unknowingly, in compartmentalized fashion for the 'hit' and 'coup'.
Some of the same elements also were involved in the assassinations of RFK, MLK and the 'disappearing witnesses'.
The FBI through Hoover controlled most of the 'evidence', destroyed others, and worked with the CIA and MI and others in the cover-up.
Hoover knew of the plans, at least in part, before the fact.
Many of the planners had been or were at the time connected to or in the CIA, but the CIA was not the originator, but a participant, among many, in the event.
The SS was involved in a stand-down of protection around the President.
Some involved were not in government, but were ultra-rich and ultra-right.
The military controlled the autopsy and faked wounds, changed wounds, hid bullets and wounds, hid x-rays and photos.
The Z film was tampered with to confirm more to the official fairy tale.
False evidence and witnesses have been planted from before the 'hit' and 'coup' until today.
All of the investigations into the Assassination were thwarted and controlled by the cover-up teams.
There is a connection between JFKs Assassination and the Wars and covert operations that proceeded and followed.
The reasons why JFK was targeted for public execution and the USA targeted for overthrow are known.
You/we/the World and History have been lied to - knowingly to protect the coup and its objectives.
America is still under the Coup and still completely crippled by the Official LIE of what happened, and will never get back on track toward better, more progressive and democratic / less war-like and police state/oligarchic directions [the opposite is now clearly visible] unless and until the Truth is exposed, generally accepted by the People [to hell with the false illegitimate 'government', and the guilty condemned - dead or alive.
There is a connection between the JFK Assassination and many other Deep Political Events - including Watergate and 9-11.
The truth of what happened and why is knowable.

....and I could go on with specifics; but will leave it there, for now.
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn
"If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and never will" - Frederick Douglass
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#7
Darrell Curtis Wrote:Is there much, if anything that everyone can agree on, as being *fact*?
I mean, unarguable, indisputable fact? This of course excludes Lone Nut
ideas. I'm speaking strictly of agreement amongst those who agree that JFK's murder
was in fact, the result of a conspiracy.

I mean this as a sincere question. I've wondered this for some time now.

Everybody, even Lone-Nutters, the WC, HSCA & research community seem to agree on this.

1. Oswald stamped '544 Camp Street, New Orleans, LA' on some of his Fair Play for Cuba' leaflets.
2. That same building also housed Guy Bannister's office. (531 Lafayette).
3. 544 Camp Street was once the address of the anti-Castro Cuban Revolutionary Council.
4. Oswald never rented any space at the 544 Camp Street/531 Lafayette address.

These are facts everyone agrees on. They've been agreed upon for almost 50 years.
What are the best-reasoned conclusions we can draw from these agreed-upon facts?

There are probably other such facts. Oswald's dates in Russia, his military marksmanship scores.

I think it's a good approach to lay out the facts everyone agrees on and then test the
conclusions the various advocates derive from the agreed-upon facts.

The 544 Camp Street fact leads me to a conclusion that is incompatible with Oswald being a Castro-sympathizer. Wherever possible, when I hear or read someone telling me Oswald was pro-Castro, I raise the question of 544 Camp Street. It's a fact we all agree on. It raises certain questions about where Oswald's sympathies really were.
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#8
I'm already getting the sense that there is some doubt
regarding as to what can be agreed upon, that we all, in fact,
agree upon.

Here's one from Peter: "The Z film was tampered with to confirm more to the official fairy tale."

I know I still reserve judgement on this, and have read comments from many that makes it
clear not all pro-conspiracy
folk agree on this.

While I think it's probable that the Z film was altered, I see most things as probabilities, rather than strictly
either/or. Binary thinking
in matters such as JFK's murder creates too many problems. This subject matter is
what writer Robert Anton Wilson would have referred to as "Chapel Perilous".

And Peter, I have read countless quality titles, and many more of debatable quality on the subject. I began
studying the JFK hit seriously in 2003 and only recently let up. I had a collection of over two hundred titles
I recently sold. I checked out most everything the Ga. state library system had available, except for obvious
garbage such as Posner, Bugliosi etc.
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#9
Quote:1. Oswald stamped '544 Camp Street, New Orleans, LA' on some of his Fair Play for Cuba' leaflets.
2. That same building also housed Guy Bannister's office. (531 Lafayette).
3. 544 Camp Street was once the address of the anti-Castro Cuban Revolutionary Council.
4. Oswald never rented any space at the 544 Camp Street/531 Lafayette address.

Good points Marc. But it seems that what these points prove about JFK's murder is debatable,
particularly between the two camps, pro and anti-conspiracy.
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#10
Darrell Curtis Wrote:I'm already getting the sense that there is some contention
regarding as to what can be agreed upon, that we all, in fact,
agree upon.

Here's one from Peter: "The Z film was tampered with to confirm more to the official fairy tale."

I know I still reserve judgement on this, and have read comments from many that makes it
clear not all pro-conspiracy
folk agree on this.

While I think it's probable that the Z film was altered, I see most things as probabilities, rather than strictly
either/or. Binary thinking
in matters such as JFK's murder creates too many problems. This subject matter is
what writer Robert Anton Wilson would have referred to as "Chapel Perilous".

And Peter, I have read countless quality titles, and many more of debatable quality on the subject. I began
studying the JFK hit seriously in 2003 and only recently let up. I had a collection of over two hundred titles
I recently sold. I checked out most everything the Ga. state library system had available, except for obvious
garbage such as Posner, Bugliosi etc.

I'll stand by what I said and I didn't say all I could have. It is IMO incontrovertible that the Z film was tampered with, and I'm sorry you haven't read up on that. Try Horne's work which is, in part, on that. I've read over 1000 books on the matter and related...and done original research. You also have to know that the 'research community' has more than its share of CIA and other such disinformation agents; as well as just fools or self-blinded. The Z film had frames missing, flipped frames, altered parts of frames, whole sections missing, and more - and it had been secretly whisked away to a secret CIA lab in Rochester, NY. Get with it. You don't have to believe me. I've been working on this case for over 37 years and you'll forgive me for not always feeling like leading everyone by the hand to the promised land. You have to get there yourself. I'm old and tired. And sick at heart that the best information [which is CONVERGENT!] is continually diluted by DIVERGENT bullshit and knowing disinformation - and that some people 'buy' it; or consider it enough to harbor doubt. That is the name of the game of those who run the cover-up...keep the doubt going....forever. Believe whatever you like. On the Z-film, take a search on this forum via google rather than the forum's own search function. There is more than enough here and one has to learn by one's self to separate the wheat from the chaff. I'f I sound grumpy, I am after all these years of LIES and the Coup. I want my fucking country back!

And I'm getting a tad suspicious of your pointing out 'doubt' and 'dissension'...it seems not to be a question, but rather a tactic......
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn
"If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and never will" - Frederick Douglass
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