Earl Rose Legend

[Tracy Riddle]

Not only was there no good reason for this historic farce since it ended up putting far more stress on Jackie than if she had waited an hour(Rose said he told them he needed just 45mins), it also sowed a huge seed of doubt, hindering us and those yet to come with tainted evidence that can never be fully trusted. Yes and I am very sorry but I just don't trust it, or them, very much at all.

From everything I've read, it would take a good three hours to do a proper autopsy, not 45 minutes.
The thing is, since there was a Dallas component to the conspiracy (some people in the DPD, local oilmen/military intelligence/mob), how do we know Earl Rose's autopsy wouldn't have been compromised too? The plotters could hardly chance it, no matter where it was done. Granted that it was probably easier and more secure at Bethesda.

[Anita Dickason]

Earl Rose isn't given the respect due to him in the mainstream media, so this really is for him and his memory and since most realise what a mistake it was to remove the body I'm just pointing out the lack of respect he get's from TV's "historians".

No respect.




Anita,
the JP was still on his way to Parkland and Rose did in fact stop the body from being removed until he got there. When he arrived, Ward being rather inexperienced just did not have the clought to handle the situation but what he should have told the Whitehouse crowd was to leave the body right where it was.Correct?

By all accounts the Ward did just that, with a little encouragement from Rose he told them all to wait till he made some calls.
He called DA Wade, Wade after consulting Burkley and Curry said let them go.
That's when Rose stepped aside. Threats of violence did not impress him.
Legend.






Regarding LBJ.
As mastermind?
That's not what I said or believe, even when I looked at it through Lifton's eyes years ago, LBJ was only considered a tool, I never saw him as the "Brains" of the thing and I don't think David did either. Let me get this straight though, if they continue to wash over what Rose tried to do and how it would have been better for all if he had succeeded then yes I'll jump on that wagon asap rather than listen to the media's current ignorant chorus.

I said above that LBJ gave the order, for selfish reasons, that's what history records fwiw.
Johnson said he wasn't leaving without Jackie(because it would have made him look bad).
I'd enjoy going over that aspect of the case.

I have not conducted a lot of research into the events that transpired at Parkland. What I posted is from my research of Texas law, the history of the justice of the peace and the medical examiner system for that time period for my book. I can say this, the Justice of the Peace was an elected position and the individual was not required to have legal training. The JP is the lowest rung on the judiciary ladder in Texas. Just imagine what Ward would have faced that day, the chaos, the confusion, the secret service and other people that were involved. And you are right about his not having the necessary clout to have stopped the secret service. Yes, he should have told them to not remove the body but he had no way of enforcing that edict. It would have taken a lot more than what Ward or Rose could bring to the table. You have to give credit to Dr. Rose for the position he took in trying to stop the removal of Kennedy's body knowing he did not have any legal authority. It is my personal opinion the information would be a lot different today if Rose had been allowed to conduct the autopsy.

Judge Pierce McBride ordered the autopsy, signed the death certificate and inquest hearing document for Oswald. Judge W. E. Richburg did the same for Ruby. Judge Joe Brown did the same for Tippit. All three judges were a justice of the peace in Dallas County in 1963. Rose conducted the autopsy for Oswald, Ruby and Tippit. An interesting side note, is that Ward did conduct an inquest and signed the inquest hearing document and the death certificate for Kennedy on Dec 6, 1963. I found that extremely interesting as his primary piece of evidence, ie: Kennedy's body had been removed and he did not have an autopsy report unless he was provided one from the doctors that did conduct the autopsy.

[David Josephs]

David... O'Donnell also tells us he sees them place JFK into the casket and THEN all this begins... the most telltale sign for alteration prior to the arrival in DC is the throat wound... the trach that goes from self-closing to 3 times as large with ripped edges.... O'Connor tells us the trach wound he saw was 2"x1" (5cm x 2.5cm) which seems to be right in between both sizes.


As Anita wrote - it was the Justice of the Peace who created the orders for an autopsy in Texas... or in the case of TIPPIT, Judge Joe Brown Jr. (was he the judge Kellerman refers to below?)

and in less than one hour he did just that in the case of Oswald.. ( a P. McBride - talk about a coincidence!)

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5504[/ATTACH]



In the case of TIPPIT... it is well over 2 hours before he is moved from Methodist to Parkland for ROSE to perform his autopsy.

There is no mention of McBride signing a document like the one above for Tippit...

Mr. KELLERMAN. This I can't truly answer. However, I should say that, as for the casket being brought into the hospital, another gentleman came into this little doctor's room, his name I don't recall, but he represented himself to be from the Health Department or commission, some form. He said to me, he said, "There has been a homicide here, you won't be able to remove the body. We will have to take it down there to the mortuary and have an autopsy." I said, "No, we are not." And he said, "We have a law here whereby you have to comply with it."

With that Dr. Burkley walked in, and I said Doctor, this man is from some health unit in town. He tells me we can't remove this body." The Doctor became a little enraged; he said, "We are removing it." He said, "This is the President of the United States and there should be some consideration in an event like this." And I told this gentleman, I said, "You are going to have to come up with something a little stronger than you to give me the law that this body can't be removed."

So, he frantically called everybody he could think of and he hasn't got an answer; nobody is home. Shortly he leaves this little room and it seems like a few minutes he is back and he has another gentleman with him, and he said, "This is"--the name escapes me he said, "He i[B]s a judge here in Dallas," and he said, "He will tell you whether you can remove this body or not." [/B]I said, "It doesn't make any difference. We are going to move it," and I said, "Judge, do you know who I am?"
And he said, "Yes," and I said, "There must be something in your thinking here that we don't have to go through this agony; the family doesn't have to go through this. We will[B] take care of the matter when we get back to Washington." [/B]The poor man looked at me and he said, "I know who you are," and he said, "I can't help you out." I said. "All right, sir." But then I happened to look to the right and I can see the casket coming on rollers, and I just left the room and let it out through the emergency entrance and we got to the ambulance and put it in, shut the door after Mrs. Kennedy and General McHugh and Clinton Hill in the rear part of this ambulance.

I am looking around for Mr. Greer and I don't spot him directly because I want to get out of here in a hurry, and I recognize Agent Berger and I said, "Berger, you get in the front seat and drive and, Mr. Stout, you get in the middle and I will get on this side," and as we are leaving--Mr. Lawson, I should say, was in a police car that led us away from Parkland Memorial Hospital. As we are leaving a gentleman taps on the driver's window and they roll it down and he says, "I will meet you at the mortuary." "Yes, sir." We went to the airport, gentlemen.


And a bit more info about what O'Donnell said:

I talked to Dr. Burkley, and had him suggest to them that they could have a
doctor come with us, he could accompany the body at all times, and that we would
bring him immediately to the Naval Hospital, and that they could perform
whatever necessary chores, and there would be no separation physically from the
hospital and the performance of their autopsy.

They refused to consider this.

[Donald Manning]

Not only was there no good reason for this historic farce since it ended up putting far more stress on Jackie than if she had waited an hour(Rose said he told them he needed just 45mins), it also sowed a huge seed of doubt, hindering us and those yet to come with tainted evidence that can never be fully trusted. Yes and I am very sorry but I just don't trust it, or them, very much at all.

From everything I've read, it would take a good three hours to do a proper autopsy, not 45 minutes.
The thing is, since there was a Dallas component to the conspiracy (some people in the DPD, local oilmen/military intelligence/mob), how do we know Earl Rose's autopsy wouldn't have been compromised too? The plotters could hardly chance it, no matter where it was done. Granted that it was probably easier and more secure at Bethesda.

As you may have guessed Tracy I just quoted Dr. Rose(from his JAMA interview which I couldn't retrieve when I needed it) without looking into it myself to see if 45mins was feasible.
Knowing how many autopsies he performed a year though I could see him doing a fair bit in less than an hour(with a little more assistance than usual and the world standing by) but like you pointed out, if they had left him the body, I'm sure he would have took his time.
I can easilly imagine that he purposely undercut the quote whilst trying to reach a compromise with these burglars.

The other point was that the purpose of the removal as far as O'Donnell was concerned was to get Jackie to a place where she would be far more comfortable. Sounds logical and valid but it never happened, at least not for a good long while.
That's not even what she wanted at that time and if/when she did, there were places in PH itself that could have served her, all Kenny O'Donnell had to do was ask.
That's Kenny O'Donnell's explanation for moving her and the body, HE felt she needed to leave this horrible place.
I really do not know what got into him because his actions are not that of a friend at all and that's why I tend to believe his version of events is not accurate and he was in fact told to bring Jackie and the body to DC like LBJ wanted.

[Donald Manning]

Thanks for sharing some of what you have learnt Anita,
I have indeed tried imagining what happened in that corridor and I dare say Stone along with those TV folks good and bad have helped me a little in that regard but after your last response, I asked myself for the first time what would have happened if Rose wasn't there?
Certainly as far as the mainstream media is concerned the removal wouldn't be an issue at all.
Since there was no complainant, there couldn't have been a theft.
"Stolen? Don't be silly. Why weren't they stopped then?".
You get the idea.

Also the Ward thing yes, I see.
I can picture him scanning newspapers each day hunting for facts after his requests for assistance are repeatedly blocked.
Sorry if that's way off the mark but hmmm

[Donald Manning]

Anita the whippings and horses were not aimed at you. Indeed, I find what you have to say intriguing. Furthermore, I find Donalds post is actually very interesting. Please tell me if Earl was well aware of the law why did he put up such a struggle? A common myth indeed one I believed until a few hours ago was the "Old Texas law" line. Was Earl just being obnoxious, if so that goes against a lot of reports stating Earl was a really decent guy.

Sorry I missed this Seamus,
clearly, I too see him as decent but there is plenty of room in there for some thought for himself.
I mean he was there on the premises and must of been paying attention, what is not to like with at the very least securing the inquest for Dallas County or even better overseeing the most important autopsy that he ever could hope to get? It would hurt no one.I'm sure many here would agree that even decent folk can do right by getting in someone's face even when it's none of their business.

I personally see the "official" explainations behind the removal as without merit and those that took the first move have admitted choosing selfish reasons, disregarding local law, procedure and the chain of evidence, so at the very least it was a pot/kettle situation.
"Jackie wouldn't leave without the body" it's an explaination sure but it's not defendable.
O'Donnell the Kennedy man, a friend should have said "to hell with Johnson I'm not doing it".
It's what Rose would have wanted/done.


Thanks also for the link to that most refreshing article.
I have much reading still to do.