The Side Mounted Scope on the 6.5 mm Carcano

[Tom Bowden]

#4 The shot was downward from sixth floor to Elm Street. So some forces such as gravity would be changed slightly. In addition the parabolic assumes certain temperature, wind resistance and humidity.

I believe Oswald did in fact have target practices. If it had been me, I would have removed the scope to make it easier to hide as well as easier to shoot. This is discussed in greater detail in the new book to be published in May…Kill JFK.

On my carcano, the bolt does not restrict view of the iron sights.

Let me be very clear. I believe there was a conspiracy and am in no way a lone nutter. For those who do not know, I was co-founder and curator of the Conspiracy Museum. R. B. Cutler was the primary financier for the first seven years and I was sole owner for the remaining seven. I did not always agree with RB's solutions but respected him as a gentleman and one who supplied money to many efforts…even those with whom he disagreed philosophically. As he always said…every book and theory has at least one valuable knowledge nugget.
ahimsa

[Bob Prudhomme]

I addressed the downward trajectory in great detail in this thread. The effect of shooting downhill is to make a bullet land high of the point of aim. The same effect occurs when shooting uphill.

This only makes worse the fact that Frazier testified the Carcano was hitting 2.5 inches high of a bullseye at 15 yards. As I showed by mathematics, this equates to hitting almost 17 inches high at 100 yards, on level ground. Shooting a rifle this badly sighted in from the 6th floor would make the bullet go even higher.

[Bob Prudhomme]

Here is an article by shooting expert Chuck Hawks discussing a state-of-the-art rifle scope. This thing does everything but whistle Dixie. It tells you the range out to your target, the angle in degrees uphill or downhill to you target, the compensated distance to aim at a target for the angle and so much more! I'll PM my mailing address to anyone who wants to buy me one of these as a belated Xmas present.

[Bob Prudhomme]

In a few of the previous posts, I have made passing reference to a phenomenon observed in shooting that would most definitely influence the ability of a shooter to hit a target at the downward slope 0f 20° from the 6th floor of the TSBD to the limo on Elm St.

Let us say we have a rifle zeroed in to be able to hit a target at 100 yards on level ground. If we take this rifle and attempt to hit a target at a 45° slope 100 yards away from us, uphill OR downhill, our bullet will land high of our aiming point. The effect increases with the increasing degree of slope and increasing distance.

The solution is to aim slightly lower than where you want your bullet to hit. This sounds easy but judging distance and angle of slope in wooded mountainous ground is one of the most difficult things in hunting. A second solution is to wait until the target is on a level with you, and a third is to stalk your target and move yourself into a position where you are level with your target. This is still difficult as one must still estimate range. Also, it is not always easy to tell if you are looking at something on the level.

The fourth, and best, solution is to make use of advanced technology and let it do your thinking for you.

The simplest form of rangefinder scope is accomplished with lines below the horizontal line of the scope crosshairs. For this, you must have a rough idea of the height of the target you are shooting; in this case, a deer.



The simplest slope indicator is of the pendulum type, and is usually mounted on the left side of the rifle scope.



Then we get into the real expensive scopes that employ lasers and microprocessors, such as the Leupold RX-III. It will give you the following display:



This scope not only tells you the range to your target and the slope you are shooting at, it tells you how much to compensate for in order to hit the target.

Oswald had none of these features on his Ordnance Optics 4x18 scope that was designed for a .22 calibre rifle. Chances are, he did not have a lot of training in shooting at downhill moving targets, either. While the amount the bullet would have gone high, at the furthest shot of 88 yards, might have only been an inch, it must be remembered that this was rapid shooting at a very small moving target (JFK's head) with a rifle which, by SA Frazier's own testimony, shot "three to five inch groups" at 100 yards.

Adding a rifle shooting high, due to the downhill slope, complicates an already very difficult shot.

And, for those who feel he may have used the open sights, there are problems here, as well. Not only is it extremely awkward to look around a side mounted scope to see open sights, the open sights on the M91/38 were fixed, and did not have the variable rear scope seen on earlier Carcano models. The front sight and rear sight of the M91/38 were aligned in such a way to make this rifle zeroed at 200 metres. If aimed at a target at 100 metres, the bullet would, again, hit a target about 1.5-2" high, as this is the apex of a parabola of this bullet if shot at a 200 metre target. Once again, Oswald would have had to aim low, compounded with already aiming low to compensate for shooting downhill AND compounded with having to aim low because the scope could not be adjusted enough to prevent it from hitting 2.5-5" high of a bullseye at 100 yards.

Once again, not even considering the likelihood of the FBI lying to the WC about Oswald's rifle hitting 2.5" high of the bullseye at 15 yards and thus hitting a mininmum of 16" high of the bullseye of a 100 yard target on level ground, we have demonstrated the impossibility of the rifle found on the 6th floor being the weapon that assassinated JFK.

[Bob Prudhomme]

While we are on the subject of the rifle, there are some interesting things about the ammunition we should discuss, as well.





While these two bullets are obviously of different construction, they are, allegedly, supposed to be the same diameter of .268". Both have allegedly been fired from a 6.5mm calibre Carcano rifle. (the labelling of the carbine in the one photo as an "M38" is incorrect, as this would make the rifle a 7.35mm calibre. It would correctly be an M91/38 carbine)

Outside of construction, can you see an obvious difference between these two bullets?

[Bob Prudhomme]

Yes, the grooves left by the raised rifling land of the rifle that shot the bullets in Doctor Bill's photo do look wider than the groove left in CE 399. I do not have the technological ability to do a photo analysis of the two photos to prove it but, it is so obvious I am sure there is a difference. BTW, it is assumed that the bullets in Doctor Bill's photo are actually two differing views of the same bullet.

The other difference in the grooves, between the two photos, is the depth of the grooves. Do the grooves on the bullets in the top photo not look to be deeper, as well, than the groove on CE 399?

If you think the groove in CE 399 does not look as deep as the grooves in Doctor Bill's photo, I will show you a perfectly plausible reason why it would not be as deep. And, if my explanation is correct and true, it will call into question whether or not the 6.5mm Carcano, allegedly owned by Oswald, could have even hit a target at 88 yards, good or bad scope.

[Bob Prudhomme]

I hope by now I have you wondering how one bullet fired from a 6.5mm Carcano can have deeper rifling grooves left in it than a bullet fired from another 6.5mm Carcano. Actually, we could use the same rifle and get different depths of grooves.

One thing that confuses many novices is that the calibre of a rifle (ie. 6.5 mm) is not necessarily the diameter of that rifle's bullet. In the case of the 6.5mm Carcano, the actual bullet diameter is about 6.8 mm, or .268". Just to confuse things, the .308 calibre rifle actually shoots a bullet .308" in diameter, while its calibre or "bore" is .30 calibre (.300").

While you are getting a headache working all that over, let's take a look at the inside of a rifle barrel and try to explain the rifling grooves; and how they determine things like calibre (bore) diameter, groove diameter and bullet diameter.







When a rifle barrel is made, a piece of roundstock is drilled or "bored" from one end to the other, creating a hollow tube. The diameter of the hole bored becomes the "bore diameter" or calibre of the rifle; ie. 6.5 mm in the Carcano or "A" in the last diagram. In the next step, a special cutting tool is run through the barrel, twisting as it goes, and cutting spiral "grooves" in the inside of the barrel. The depth they are cut too becomes the "groove diameter" of the rifle; ie. 6.8 mm in the Carcano or "B" in the last diagram. The groove diameter is also the diameter of the bullet; this is very important to remember.

When a bullet travels down a barrel, the raised portion of the riflings, known as "lands" ("D") actually cut into the sides of the bullet, leaving distinctive grooves in a bullet. The bottom diagram (left side) is a fairly close depiction of the four lands and four grooves in a 6.5 Carcano barrel, as the Carcano did not have very wide lands. The diagram above it shows a barrel with much wider lands and narrower grooves.

The purpose of the riflings is to impart a spin to the bullet and stabilize it gyroscopically. Rifles are often referred to as having "fast twist" (1:8 or faster) or "slow twist" (1:10 or slower). The numbers mean the number of complete turns a bullet will make in how many inches. For instance, a 1:8 pitch means the bullet will make one complete spin in the space of 8 inches; 1:10 means one complete turn in 10 inches, etc. Heavier bullets tend to require a faster pitch while lighter bullets require a slower pitch.

The early Carcanos (pre-1938) had a type of rifling known as "gain" or "progressive" twist rifling. This was a difficult thing to machine in a rifle barrel but, it is still felt by some that it extended barrel life. There was another reason it was done but, we will look at that later. This type of rifling began with a very slow 1:19 twist at the breech, where the bullet begins its journey, and progressively got tighter as it travelled through the barrel; exiting at the muzzle where the twist ended up at a fast 1:8 twist.

The 6.5 mm is a popular European calibre, and has been chambered for many hunting as well as military rifles. What makes the Carcano unique is that while it shares the 6.5 mm calibre with these other rifles, it and it alone shoots a bullet greater in diameter than the other 6.5 mm rifles. The designers of the Carcano chose to give it extra deep rifling grooves; requiring a wider bullet. All other 6.5 mm calibre rifles shoot a bullet that is 6.7 mm (.264") in diameter while the Carcano shoots a bullet 6.8 mm (.268") in diameter. It is believed the Carcano lands were made narrow because, with their added height, they were already displacing a lot of the bullet jacket material. It is also believed, because the lands were taking such a deep bite, that the progressive twist rifling made the initial forward movement of the bullet easier.

While rifling grooves that are only .002" deeper, on each side of the barrel, than other 6.5mm rifles may not seem capable of having much effect on accuracy, it is a well established fact that shooting a bullet .264" in diameter from a 6.5 Carcano will redefine the expression "can't hit the broad side of a barn".

I'm getting a little tired here. Think over what I have written, and I will continue tomorrow.

[Bob Prudhomme]

So, I left off with telling you that the 6.5 mm calibre was popular in Europe in both hunting and military rifles, and that all 6.5 mm rifles, due to the depth of their rifling grooves, required a bullet .264" in diameter, EXCEPT for the 6.5 Carcano which, due to much deeper rifling grooves, required a bullet .268" in diameter.

Just as a side note, here is something to consider when discussing the bullet that hit JFK in the head and literally came to pieces. Not only was it a full metal jacket bullet (purposely designed NOT to come apart), its copper alloy jacket, due to the deeper Carcano rifling grooves, had jacket walls .002" thicker than any other 6.5 mm bullet. This was a robust bullet; so robust, in fact, that it most times went right through an enemy combatant without doing much damage. This was such a problem that it was the inspiration for dropping the 6.5x52mm Carcano in 1938 and replacing it with the 7.35x51mm Carcano. More on this fiasco in a later post.

Anyways, back to the original topic, that being how the rifling grooves on CE 399 might not be as deep as the rifling grooves on the .268" diameter bullet from Doctor Bill. To get the whole story, we have to go to Italy circa 1943.

Things were not going so well for the Fascists in 1943. Mussolini had been deposed and sent into captivity by Loyalists, where he was liberated by Hitler's paratroopers in a daring raid. He was reinstated as leader of a much reduced territory involving only northern Italy. In the south of Italy, German troops still clung stubbornly to every inch of ground. Italian troops in southern Italy, idled by the armistice with the Allies signed on Sept. 8, 1943, wanted desperately to rid themselves of the Nazi occupiers and either formed partisan guerilla groups or joined a group known as the Italian Co-Belligerent Army, a reorganized force loyal to King Victor Emmanuel of Italy. These troops, still armed with their 6.5mm Carcanos, fought alongside Allied troops and, at one point, it is estimated that one-eighth of all combat troops fighting the Nazis in Italy belonged to this force. Many of these troops fought with great valor, and distinguished themselves in such horrific battles as Monte Cassino.

While the Warren Commission has a lovely cloak and dagger story about four million rounds of 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridges being manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co. (USA) in a clandestine delivery to the USMC in 1954, with the ultimate recipient being broadly hinted at as being the CIA (to arm some faction in a Third World fracas somewhere), there are problems with this story. First, the only international fracases taking place in 1954 were in French Indo-China, Algeria and Guatemala, and there were no great caches of 6.5 Carcanos in any of those countries.

There is ample evidence that all 6.5x52 mm Carcano ammo made by the WCC was intended to arm Italian troops fighting Nazis. Mark Lane, in "Rush to Judgement", quoted a letter to Steve Galanor from Winchester-Western (parent co. of the WCC) that stated all production of this cartridge was for US Defense Dept. contracts and completed in 1944, with no further 6.5mm Carcano production. Sylvia Meagher, in her 1967 book "Accessories After the Fact", quotes the following FBI report:

"On March 23, 1964, Mr. R.W. Botts, District Manager, Winchester-Western Division, Olin Mathieson Chemical Corporation, Braniff Building, advised [that] the Western Cartridge Company, a division of Olin Industries, East Alton, Illinois, manufactured a quantity of 6.5 M/M Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition for the Italian Government during World War II. At the end of the war the Italian Carcano rifle, and no telling how much of this type ammunition, was sold to United States gun brokers and dealers and subsequently was distributed by direct sales to wholesalers, retailers, and individual purchasers."

Clearly, the 1954 manufacture date from the WC was a lie, and Oswald would have been shooting twenty year old ammunition.

It is likely the ammunition made for the Italians, which never seemed to have made it to Italy, was manufactured as insurance against a prolonged struggle in Italy. However, Italy was not the only place in Europe where a great number of 6.5 Carcano rifles existed.

When the armistice of Sept. 8, 1943 was signed, removing Italian fighting forces from WWII, Italian troops had been co-occupying the country of Greece with German forces. The Germans, fearing an armed resistance armed with 6.5 Carcanos in Italy, once these troops were repatriated to Italy, which is in fact what happened, disarmed the Italian troops in Greece and sent them back to Italy without their Carcanos. Hence, there were great caches of 6.5 Carcano rifles in Greece, which soon found their way into the hands of Communist and Loyalist Greek partisans.

There are sources on the Internet that tell us the WCC 6.5mm ammo was made in the USA, in 1949, to arm the anti-Communist factions in the Greek Civil War. This is simply more disinformation designed as a distracting compromise to the 1954 story, for those not comfortable with that date. It makes no sense, as the civil war ENDED in 1949, and it would have been a little late to be supplying ammo. Also, these sources list the Greek Civil War as taking place from 1946-1949. This is misleading, for as soon as the ink was dry on the Italian armistice in 1943 and the Carcanos were stockpiled in garrisons in Greece, Greek partisans were not only setting designs on these weapons, they were also beginning to war with each other as well as the Germans, and these partisan groups would become warring factions once the liberation of Greece was complete. As one faction was Communist, it only makes sense that the US would take an early interest in this struggle (1943-1944) and make plans to arm their favorite.

Now, this has been a long story, and I still have not told you why CE 399 might have shallower rifling grooves on it than the .268" bullet of Doctor Bill's. Well, the story gets a bit longer, and it has mainly to do with the Greek military issue rifle, the 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer.

If placed side by side, a 6.5x52 mm Carcano cartridge and a 6.5x54 mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer cartridge are virtually indistinguishable. The 52 mm and 54 mm measurements are of the brass case, not the entire bullet. If measured, it will be found that the 6.5 MS brass catridge is 2 mm longer, and the shoulder of the brass cartridge would be 1 mm (.040") higher on the 6.5 MS cartridge case than the shoulder of the 6.5 Carcano cartridge case.





6.5x54 mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer cartridge on left


Translated, this means you can load a 6.5 Carcano cartridge into a 6.5 Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifle and shoot it, IF the 6.5 Carcano cartridge is loaded with a .264" diameter bullet and NOT the .268" diameter bullet normally fired from a 6.5 Carcano. The brass will stretch when fired as it takes up the 1 mm (.040")slack in the shoulder to fit the MS chamber, but this is of little consequence.

Some 6.5 Carcanos had their chambers reamed out by Greek armourers to accept the 6.5x54 MS cartridge. By doing this, they forever robbed these rifles of accuracy, as a .264" bullet (the standard and only possible bullet to load into a 6.5 MS cartridge)fired from a 6.5 Carcano is nowhere near as accurate as a .268" bullet. However, during combat, a man is considered a 2 x 5 foot target, and a bullet placed anywhere on that target will take that man out of the fight. Sniper accuracy is not essential in combat, where combatants are often shooting at each other at ranges under 75 yards.

Here is the question. If you were in the US Defense Dept., and you were looking at arming Italians equipped with 6.5 Carcanos, Greek partisans armed with 6.5 Carcanos (some stock and some re-chambered for 6.5 MS) and Greek partisans armed with 6.5 Mannlicher-Schoenauers, would you not want one generic cartridge (the 6.5 Carcano) that could be fired in all of these weapons? ESPECIALLY if it was pre-1944 and you were trying to keep it secret from your Soviet allies that you were only arming the anti-Communist partisan factions in Greece?

The only compromise you would have to make is that the WCC cartridges would have to be loaded with bullets .264" in diameter and not those .268" in diameter. Although accuracy would be sacrificed, this would actually make things simpler, as the .264" bullets were the ones everyone but the Italians used, and dies for making these bullets would be far easier to come by.

Look again at the photos. If CE 399 was .264" in diameter, would it not make sense that the grooves made in it would be shallower than those made by a 6.5 Carcano rifle in a .268" diameter bullet? If Oswald was shooting bullets .264" in diameter from a 6.5 Carcano short rifle, could he have hit JFK, considering all of the other deficiencies we have discussed?

[Bob Prudhomme]

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[Bob Prudhomme]

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