Q re Harvey and Lee

[Jim Hargrove]

We don't know what role Oswald served in Russia. He might have brought very real information on microfilm that helped shoot down the U-2. Who knows what the Russians knew? After the fall of the iron curtain they knew JFK was killed by conspiracy but kept their mouths shut. So maybe they did the same with Oswald.

Also, the Dallas scheme didn't really work because researchers have mostly figured it out over the years. So whether it worked or not doesn't really apply with these powers because they can change the earth to force their agenda through.

Albert,

Even though the "defection" didn't work, it was still very clever. Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald was never at Atsugi or in the radar bubble observing the U-2s. That was American-born LEE Oswald. When HARVEY Oswald said he would tell the Russians everything he knew, he didn't know squat about the spy planes.

From John Armstrong's famous 1997 speech in Dallas:

In November of 1957, Harvey Oswald was in New Orleans where he worked at
the Pfisterer Dental Labs with Palmer McBride until July, 1958--while Lee
Oswald was in Japan. This photo of Harvey was probably taken in early
1957. Lee Oswald, while in Japan, never spoke Russian, read Russian
newspapers, nor discussed Communism. He hated the name "Harvey" or
"Harv", and was given the nickname "Ozzie". Peter Cassisi, John Heindel
and other Marines who served with Oswald in Atsugi remembered Lee Oswald
returning to the base drunk, loud, and boisterous on numerous occasions.
But the person killed by Jack Ruby did not drink, did not smoke, and usually
did not speak unless spoken to.

Jim

[LR Trotter]

If in fact, and I am not disputing it, the Lee H Oswald imposter, aka "Harvey", was the person shot by Jack Ruby at the DPD on 11/24/63, what then happened to Lee H Oswald, aka "Lee", after 11/24/1963?
A curious thing for me is the 1981 exhumation of "Lee Harvey Oswald", which identified the person as Lee Harvey Oswald. But, I have seen some commentary regarding the head possibly being switched to affirm that identification. Not being anything close to a scientist, I do not know what is possible presently regarding remains identification. But, if possible, it would be something to know the positive identification of the remains that are reportedly Lee Harvey Oswald.
To resove the "rabbit riddle" would be a major step in understanding 11/22/63. JMO.
::doh::

[Jim Hargrove]

If in fact, and I am not disputing it, the Lee H Oswald imposter, aka "Harvey", was the person shot by Jack Ruby at the DPD on 11/24/63, what then happened to Lee H Oswald, aka "Lee", after 11/24/1963?

From the website:

The fate of HARVEY Oswald, in Dallas Police custody until he was killed by Jack Ruby, is well-known. But LEE Oswald's whereabouts following the assassination become increasingly difficult to follow. One intriguing account of his possible escape from the Dallas area comes from a decorated U.S. Air Force 20-year veteran named Robert Vinson. Vinson said that on the afternoon of November 22 he was a passenger on a nearly deserted C-54 cargo plane that departed from Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland. Soon after the assassination the plane was diverted and landed on what appeared to be a road under construction near the Trinity River south of Dallas. There, Vinson said, a Jeep carrying two men and a driver pulled up to the plane and the two passengers came aboard. Vinson said the taller man might have been Cuban, and, after he saw televised pictures of Lee HARVEY Oswald, he felt the shorter man "looked an awful lot like Oswald." The flight continued to an Air Force Base in Roswell, New Mexico, where all the passengers deplaned. Vinson said he was told the entire base was on lockdown until later in the evening. Click here for Part 2 of the YouTube interview with Vinson. Additional background information on Vinson is in Part 1 of the interview, also on YouTube.

A curious thing for me is the 1981 exhumation of "Lee Harvey Oswald", which identified the person as Lee Harvey Oswald. But, I have seen some commentary regarding the head possibly being switched to affirm that identification. Not being anything close to a scientist, I do not know what is possible presently regarding remains identification. But, if possible, it would be something to know the positive identification of the remains that are reportedly Lee Harvey Oswald.
To resove the "rabbit riddle" would be a major step in understanding 11/22/63. JMO.
::doh::

I'm not an expert on this, but I believe the only guy involved in both the original burial and then the exhumation of "Lee Harvey Oswald" was a mortician named Paul Groody. At the exhumation, Groody at first identified the body as the body of the guy he buried, saying he was wearing the same clothes, etc. But he soon retracted that statement when he realized the head of the body he saw at the exhumation had not undergone a craniotomy (removal of the top of the skull), which, from the autopsy notes, had clearly been done after "Lee Harvey Oswald" was killed by Ruby.

Arguments for and against Groody's charges (I think he even wrote a book about it) go on at length, but I never paid all that much attention but it is clear that elements of the USG will go to any lengths required to hide the true biography of Lee Harvey Oswald, which was the real State secret of the Kennedy assassination.

Jim

[Albert Doyle]

Even though the "defection" didn't work, it was still very clever. Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald was never at Atsugi or in the radar bubble observing the U-2s. That was American-born LEE Oswald. When HARVEY Oswald said he would tell the Russians everything he knew, he didn't know squat about the spy planes.

All easily overcome by providing the defector Oswald with microfilm and a briefing. If the defector Oswald provided good intel he might easily get a Russian wife, an assignment at a radio factory that tried to make it look like he wasn't taken seriously, and ultimately and easy pass back home with his KGB monitor wife to make sure his American assignment was carried out. Child's play for Cold War espionage.

[LR Trotter]

If in fact, and I am not disputing it, the Lee H Oswald imposter, aka "Harvey", was the person shot by Jack Ruby at the DPD on 11/24/63, what then happened to Lee H Oswald, aka "Lee", after 11/24/1963?

From the website:

The fate of HARVEY Oswald, in Dallas Police custody until he was killed by Jack Ruby, is well-known. But LEE Oswald's whereabouts following the assassination become increasingly difficult to follow. One intriguing account of his possible escape from the Dallas area comes from a decorated U.S. Air Force 20-year veteran named Robert Vinson. Vinson said that on the afternoon of November 22 he was a passenger on a nearly deserted C-54 cargo plane that departed from Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland. Soon after the assassination the plane was diverted and landed on what appeared to be a road under construction near the Trinity River south of Dallas. There, Vinson said, a Jeep carrying two men and a driver pulled up to the plane and the two passengers came aboard. Vinson said the taller man might have been Cuban, and, after he saw televised pictures of Lee HARVEY Oswald, he felt the shorter man "looked an awful lot like Oswald." The flight continued to an Air Force Base in Roswell, New Mexico, where all the passengers deplaned. Vinson said he was told the entire base was on lockdown until later in the evening. Click here for Part 2 of the YouTube interview with Vinson. Additional background information on Vinson is in Part 1 of the interview, also on YouTube.

A curious thing for me is the 1981 exhumation of "Lee Harvey Oswald", which identified the person as Lee Harvey Oswald. But, I have seen some commentary regarding the head possibly being switched to affirm that identification. Not being anything close to a scientist, I do not know what is possible presently regarding remains identification. But, if possible, it would be something to know the positive identification of the remains that are reportedly Lee Harvey Oswald.
To resove the "rabbit riddle" would be a major step in understanding 11/22/63. JMO.
::doh::

I'm not an expert on this, but I believe the only guy involved in both the original burial and then the exhumation of "Lee Harvey Oswald" was a mortician named Paul Groody. At the exhumation, Groody at first identified the body as the body of the guy he buried, saying he was wearing the same clothes, etc. But he soon retracted that statement when he realized the head of the body he saw at the exhumation had not undergone a craniotomy (removal of the top of the skull), which, from the autopsy notes, had clearly been done after "Lee Harvey Oswald" was killed by Ruby.

Arguments for and against Groody's charges (I think he even wrote a book about it) go on at length, but I never paid all that much attention but it is clear that elements of the USG will go to any lengths required to hide the true biography of Lee Harvey Oswald, which was the real State secret of the Kennedy assassination.

Jim

Thanks Jim. I believe, at one time or another, I saw a broadcast of the entire TMWKK TV program series. As I recall, that is where I first saw Paul Groody's comments about the exhumation, which to me indicates that possibly the body buried is the person shot and killed by Jack Ruby at DPD on 11/24/1963, but the head has been switched. But, the indication is that if the head was switched, it had been there a considerable time, or it was buried somewhere else and used for the exhumation/identification. Of course I don't know, but that is my interpretation of Mr Groody's comments.
A few short years back, I had some contact, on an unrelated forum, with an individual who witnessed many of the events of 11/22/63 - 11/25/63, including the "LHO" burial. He promised me a conversation regarding those occurrences if I was able to attend a certain unrelated event. Sadly, he passed away a short time later, and the conversation never took place. His passing, I do not believe, was related to 11/22/63 - 11/25/63. And, he did not indicate any earth shattering information.

::

[LR Trotter]

If in fact, and I am not disputing it, the Lee H Oswald imposter, aka "Harvey", was the person shot by Jack Ruby at the DPD on 11/24/63, what then happened to Lee H Oswald, aka "Lee", after 11/24/1963?

From the website:

The fate of HARVEY Oswald, in Dallas Police custody until he was killed by Jack Ruby, is well-known. But LEE Oswald's whereabouts following the assassination become increasingly difficult to follow. One intriguing account of his possible escape from the Dallas area comes from a decorated U.S. Air Force 20-year veteran named Robert Vinson. Vinson said that on the afternoon of November 22 he was a passenger on a nearly deserted C-54 cargo plane that departed from Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland. Soon after the assassination the plane was diverted and landed on what appeared to be a road under construction near the Trinity River south of Dallas. There, Vinson said, a Jeep carrying two men and a driver pulled up to the plane and the two passengers came aboard. Vinson said the taller man might have been Cuban, and, after he saw televised pictures of Lee HARVEY Oswald, he felt the shorter man "looked an awful lot like Oswald." The flight continued to an Air Force Base in Roswell, New Mexico, where all the passengers deplaned. Vinson said he was told the entire base was on lockdown until later in the evening. Click here for Part 2 of the YouTube interview with Vinson. Additional background information on Vinson is in Part 1 of the interview, also on YouTube.

A curious thing for me is the 1981 exhumation of "Lee Harvey Oswald", which identified the person as Lee Harvey Oswald. But, I have seen some commentary regarding the head possibly being switched to affirm that identification. Not being anything close to a scientist, I do not know what is possible presently regarding remains identification. But, if possible, it would be something to know the positive identification of the remains that are reportedly Lee Harvey Oswald.
To resove the "rabbit riddle" would be a major step in understanding 11/22/63. JMO.
::doh::

I'm not an expert on this, but I believe the only guy involved in both the original burial and then the exhumation of "Lee Harvey Oswald" was a mortician named Paul Groody. At the exhumation, Groody at first identified the body as the body of the guy he buried, saying he was wearing the same clothes, etc. But he soon retracted that statement when he realized the head of the body he saw at the exhumation had not undergone a craniotomy (removal of the top of the skull), which, from the autopsy notes, had clearly been done after "Lee Harvey Oswald" was killed by Ruby.

Arguments for and against Groody's charges (I think he even wrote a book about it) go on at length, but I never paid all that much attention but it is clear that elements of the USG will go to any lengths required to hide the true biography of Lee Harvey Oswald, which was the real State secret of the Kennedy assassination.

Jim

Thanks Jim. I believe, at one time or another, I saw a broadcast of the entire TMWKK TV program series. As I recall, that is where I first saw Paul Groody's comments about the exhumation, which to me indicates that possibly the body buried is the person shot and killed by Jack Ruby at DPD on 11/24/1963, but the head has been switched. But, the indication is that if the head was switched, it had been there a considerable time, or it was buried somewhere else and used for the exhumation/identification. Of course I don't know, but that is my interpretation of Mr Groody's comments.
A few short years back, I had some contact, on an unrelated forum, with an individual who witnessed many of the events of 11/22/63 - 11/25/63, including the "LHO" burial. He promised me a conversation regarding those occurrences if I was able to attend a certain unrelated event. Sadly, he passed away a short time later, and the conversation never took place. His passing, I do not believe, was related to 11/22/63 - 11/25/63. And, he did not indicate any earth shattering information.

::

Regarding the "Lee H Oswald disappearance", I did view the interview of USAF veteran Mr Robert Vinson and saw and heard his testimony about the C54 Cargo Plane landing and taking off from a roadway under construction near the Trinity River. I believe I noticed some errors in his statement, two of which were corrected. As I recall, he said the airplane was a twin engine, and the interviewer, Mr Johnston, corrected his statement to a four engine airplane. Also, when discussing the westbound in-flight left turn to go south, he said that the plane made a 180 degree turn, and the interviewer corrected that statement as well to a 90 degree turn. And, as I recall, when discussing 11/19/63, he indicated it was a Wednesday, and the following day was a Thursday. Although, he did indicate that Friday was 11/22/63. But, there was no day/date corrections by the interviewer that I saw. Quite possibly, Mr Vinson was just nervous, but it is concerning.
::

[Albert Doyle]

Regarding the "Lee H Oswald disappearance", I did view the interview of USAF veteran Mr Robert Vinson and saw and heard his testimony about the C54 Cargo Plane landing and taking off from a roadway under construction near the Trinity River. I believe I noticed some errors in his statement, two of which were corrected. As I recall, he said the airplane was a twin engine, and the interviewer, Mr Johnston, corrected his statement to a four engine airplane. Also, when discussing the westbound in-flight left turn to go south, he said that the plane made a 180 degree turn, and the interviewer corrected that statement as well to a 90 degree turn. And, as I recall, when discussing 11/19/63, he indicated it was a Wednesday, and the following day was a Thursday. Although, he did indicate that Friday was 11/22/63. But, there was no day/date corrections by the interviewer that I saw. Quite possibly, Mr Vinson was just nervous, but it is concerning.
::

Vinson suffered the monitoring and career problems of real witnesses afterwards. I think the before and after of his trip back from Washington was verified making the in between more likely.

[Duncan Pillans]

It would be interesting if the Harvey and Lee project was a covert project using genetics to form two identical twins in different mothers who were chosen because of their resemblance with the intention of penetrating the iron curtain for espionage.

I was wondering the same and the 1978 film 'The Boys from Brazil' immediately sprang to mind. If this was possible in 1939, and that is a big 'if', would the different mothers account for the significant differences of height between Lee and Harvey throughout their life's? Maybe it does not work like that but I would be very interested to find out.

I suppose no one knows whose Harvey's biological mother was? I am assuming his 'mother' was assigned to him, like foster parents are? If so, quite possibly he would have been at least 5 or 6 years of age, i.e. after WWII, when he migrated to America from somewhere in Eastern Europe where Russian was spoken. Based on reports of his malnourished appearance this makes sense as the L&H article purports to his real parents possibly coming from Hungary, if you pardon the pun.

[Peter Lemkin]

I'm not aware and have never heard of Vinson being interviewed in voice or on video. Can anyone point to that? I'm only aware of his book, having been interviewed by a few researchers and mentioned in a few books - notably in that of Douglass. It would be fairly easy to verify parts of his story IF [GIGANTIC IF] the Government wanted to [which they do not]. The part of his story I find most unlikely is how a large plane could land on an unfinished road near the Trinity River North of the Plaza area and NOT be seen or heard by someone - and reported. It is true however, that there is an airfield named Garland in that general vicinity - but then the radar people at Garland should have spotted it and noted it - unless they were in on the plot - a possibility - as Plumlee claims to have first flown into Garland with a crew and a crate from New Orleans. After that, Plumlee's story and Vinson's story contradict each other. I have asked Plumlee to please untangle the impossible overlap and he has declined to. For those of you who do not know, I was under contract before anyone else to write Plumlee's biography and spent years working on it. It blew up in my face [almost literally] and my life suddenly went very strange and 'south' at a certain point. This included late night threat calls and seemingly 'unrelated' lawsuits coming at me from all directions. While Plumlee and I remain in contact and nominally friends, he has backed off of explaining any further the details of his story of 11/21-22/63, as well as its aftermath for him. Contradictions and clarifications I point out or ask for go unanswered if they involve going past his standard rendition. I'll let history be the judge. It is a very complex story, but years of research led me to be most inclined to believe that Plumlee may well have been a co-pilot to Dallas and may have seen some of the events he reports. If he did not, he was definitely prepped by someone who was! Contradictions exist not only with Vinson, but with Wayne January - the head man at RedBird Airport that day. Again, a very complex story - too complex to get into here............I had detailed it as much as I ever have publicly on the EF, but that was all erased, at the push of a button by the head of the EF.