Detailed discussion and analysis of the H&L evidence
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Detailed discussion and analysis of the H&L evidence
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26-03-2014, 04:34 PM
Quote: Be careful David.When I called for the moderators recently I was snitch-jacketed by member James Norwood.Of course,he was called out for it...NOT
"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.â€
Buckminster Fuller
26-03-2014, 05:29 PM
Keith Millea Wrote:Quote:Calling all moderators We're here trying to out the Military Industrial Congressional Complex... you honestly think I'm worried about members playing cointelpro games? :  :http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm...m/id/40301 When interviewed by the HSCA in 1978, (Richard Allen) Cyr produced his original set of Marine orders from the Commanding Officer, Marine Corps Casual Company, Department of the Pacific, Marine Barracks, United States Naval Station, Treasure Island, San Francisco, California. The list containedthe names of seven Marines and their addresses, all of whom had served atAtsugi in Japan and knew Lee Oswald. They were: John E. Bordenkircher(Florida), [B]Richard A. Bullock (AtlanticCity, NJ), Russell Burton (Long Island, NY), James A. Groden (Tullahona,TN), Lance lves (Belfair, WA), Richard Korson (North Point, Ml), and Charles Benedict (Newton, MA).[/B] (hmmm... that's funny, not a single one of the people on this list were ever contacted to be shown a picture of the Oswald who killed JFK and aks if it was the same person..... ::face.palm:: ) Until.... In July, 2003 JFK researcher Bill Kelley interviewed Richard A.Bullock, who knew Lee Oswald in Japan. Bullock knew him as "Ozzie," andsaid he was 30-40 pounds heavier and 3-4 inches taller than the man accused of killingPresident Kennedy. Bullock said the Oswald he knew in Japan was not man accused of killingthe President. This statement directly contradicts the FBI SUMMARY REPORT submitted by SA Darrel B Currie. When he spoke to the HSCA about any interviews he gave at the time of the assasinationn he told them: He was not questioned when Oswald defected to the Soviet Union. He was questioned concerning the nickle-plated 22 caliber Derringer, about a week or two weeks after the assassination of President Kennedy by two FBI agents, one of whose names Cyr recalled as being Agent Nightengale. In the FBI report from 6/3/64, Currie claims that Cyr told him that Oswald was a very quiet guy and that other than the shooting incident he was never the subject of conversation, which if you follow the link and read the HSCA interview, and remember that Oswald was disciplined for a variety of things that never made it to this early FBI report... one has to wonder how badly the FBI was interested in Oswald's time in Japan and the people he knew there.. or what exactly Cyr told him if anything... yet another example of a FBI, unsigned and unchecked SUMMARY REPORT which is at odds with the actual facts discovered later, when complete interviews were performed.
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
10-04-2014, 10:46 PM
This thread should be re-titled: "Detailed discussion confirming all H&L evidence - criticism of this sacred text will end in your expulsion"
11-04-2014, 12:29 AM
Mitchell Severson Wrote:This thread should be re-titled: "Detailed discussion confirming all H&L evidence - criticism of this sacred text will end in your expulsion" Mr S... have you read the book or not? Have you taken any time to follow the research at the Baylor site? How much time have you spent researching the actual assassination itself... ? I am sure it dwarfs the time spend with the H&L materials... If you have a point you'd like to make, make it then... What the expelled person did was to focus on the nonsense and ignore the evidence... As a single example let's look at his "voodoo tonsillectomy" approach... His points were: Quote: The doctor named on the insurance application was a "Dr. Philben." His full name was Patrick Donald Philben and he was a doctor of osteopathy; a form of "healing" developed along lines of spiritualist philosophies and hands-on manipulation. In the early days it was closely associated with such pseudo-intellectual attempts to merge science and spiritualism as Theosophy. Drugs were not part of treatment, and surgery was regarded as a last resort. Lee's tonsillitis was treated along osteopathic lines which may have mimicked for instance, a faith healing session in which Marguerite honestly believed the tonsils had been removed. This also makes explicable the lack of hospital records confirming a tonsillectomy. One wonders if non-traditional medicine was introduced to Marguerite by her new husband. All records prior to her meeting Ekdahl show the use of traditional doctors. and then he goes on to disparage the doctor himself, the licensing of TX doctors, the licensing of oesteopaths, that tonsils can grow back (but only in the rarest of cases and only to a small fraction of their original size - he forgets to tell you that)... while thaings MAY have been one way or another... and one WONDERS about many things... GP offered nothing but opinion and insults about the doctor as opposed to actual research and evidence as I posted... and yet... TONSILS are not and were not the point of the discussion and H&L conflict.... the CONFLICTS arise in areas GP does not do so well within, the EVIDENCE (like his linking to virtual duplicates of a FBI Summary report which asks about 1954-55 when the time period in question was 1953-54). So for clarity of purpose, please take a moment to review the actual CONFLICTS in the evidence which shows that HARVEY and LEE were not at the same places at the same times up thru their time in Biloxi Miss thru June 1957: In 1956, when Oswald joins the Marines, the only medical problems he is having are 1) ear/nose/throat and 2) Running Ears... CE1962 - which follows on the heels of his service recap - is Allen Felde describing a completely differet timeline... btw - Basic Training and Combat Training at Camp Pendleton and for most all Marines is 13-weeks plus 3 more weeks... How does LEE finish Basic in only 5 weeks, by Feb 26th... yet his medical record shows nothing for the tonsillitis in Jan 1957 while it appears as if he is in southern CA (San Onofre) prior to his 15-MAR-1957 med visit in JAX, FL... [ATTACH=CONFIG]5883[/ATTACH] From research and the H&L text and supporting documentation: Tonsillectomy During his time in the Marines Oswald's medical record was kept as was the medical records for all the marines. Oswald was in San Diego from 26 Oct 56 thru 18 Jan 57 and in platoon 2060 with one Alan Felde and 6 other men who were then sent to Camp Pendleton for 13 WEEKS of Boot Camp followed by 3 weeks of specialized combat training starting January 20 1957. (Google "Marines Boot Camp" and see discussions of it being 13 weeks for as long as anyone remembers with the 3 weeks that follow as well) 13 weeks from Jan 20, 1957 is April 21, 1957 plus the 3 weeks of combat training is now May 12, 1957 …. Yet CE1961 has Oswald finishing Combat Training in only 5 weeks and going to Jacksonville FL between Feb 26[SUP]th[/SUP] and March 18[SUP]th[/SUP] (normally a 2 day trip as recorded by those who went to Biloxi on May 2nd) Allen Felde says that in MAY 1957 he and Oswald were sent to the A&P School in Jacksonville FL… Yet according to the testimony of one Daniel Powers LEE Harvey Oswald was given orders to report to Keesler AFB effective May 3, 1957 with 4 other men: On the evening of May 2 these six Marines boarded a train for Biloxi and arrived on May 4.[SUP]21[/SUP] Their departure from Jacksonville is confirmed by Marine Corps Unit Diary No������ 105-57, p. 722. 57-12 …Camarata, Bandoni, Brereton, Schrand, and Powers. [SUP]23[/SUP] Donald Peter Camarata told the FBI that he first met Lee Oswald when they traveled together on a train from Jacksonville, Florida to Biloxi on May 2. Camarata said that during the time he knew Oswald, "He had no recollection .... of any remarks on his part concerning Communism, Russia, or Cuba. " [SUP]24[/SUP] Edward J. Bandoni and James N. Brereton met Lee Oswald when they traveled together on the train from Jacksonville, Florida to Biloxi on May 2. Neither man was interviewed by the FBI or Warren Commission. Martin Schrand also met Lee Oswald when they travelled together on the train from Jacksonville, Florida on May 2. Lee Oswald and Schrand were assigned to the same unit in the Philippines on January 5, 1958 when Schrand was killed by a shotgun blast while on guard duty. Daniel Patrick Powers was the only member of the 6-man group interviewed by the Warren Commission. Reading from his Marine Corps orders, Powers told the Commission that his group attended Course number AB27037 and Class number 08057.25 57-13 Harvey Oswald's Marine Corps record, however, show that he attended Course number AB27330, and Class number 24047. [ATTACH=CONFIG]5884[/ATTACH] So basically we have Lee HARVEY Oswald in platoon 2060 at combat training thru May 1957 while LEE Harvey Oswald from platoon 1070 or 1069 has already been to Combat Training, been to Jacksonville FL and is on now his way to Biloxi Miss by May 2, 1957, when HARVEY and FELDE are just arriving in Jacksonville. The men who traveled with LEE are not called to discuss their time with him, while the one man who is called Daniel Powers has orders which match the Marine Corp Unit Diaries and has LEE traveling with this same group of men. This is an example of the combining of records and the dismissal of anyone who could connect LEE with HARVEY between Jan 1957 and May 1957. What does this have to do with Tonsils? It simple establishes that the Oswald with the colds, and reoccurring sore throats was HARVEY Oswald from platoon 2060, Allen Felde's acquaintance… and NOT the man Powers and a handful of others knew as LEE who supposedly finished 13 weeks of basic training in 5 weeks. You see Mitchell - when you are only BARELY AWARE of the evidence, and not taken the time to read and research each of the subjects - as I have done - or to take the time to talk with John Armstrong and ask point blank WHY/HOW certain evidence corroborates other evidence, you get the approach that GP tried.... focus on the minutia and maybe they wont notice the actual mountain of evidence as opposed to the mole-hill he tried to create about information that was ancillary at best to the entire point of the research. If you can read the entire book and do some of the necessary digging while you are reading it and STILL feel there are problems to resolve... great, let's talk evidence, FBI, Angleton, Cold War and any of the multitude of subjects H&L revolves around... But if you want to make this about some FBI informant who does not exactly say they left NYC as opposed to diggin into who she was or how she came to be in the first place... If you want to discuss Ekdahl's height as opposed to the real connection he had with Fred Korth and who he was to begin with... fine... do so. Believe or don't - it remains the EVIDENCE which needs reconciliation... not those who have put in the time and effort needed to even BEGIN to understand the H&L situation. I'll leave you with this: Why are these two action critical to the investigation of JFK's death? On Saturday morning, less than 12 hours after Oswald was officially charged with JFK's assassination, the FBI was knocking on Kudlaty's school office door... Kudlaty had gotten a call from his boss that morning to go and retrieve Oswald's records and give them to the FBI who would meet him at the school. On Sunday morning Nov 23rd, the FBI shows up at Pfisterer's Dental Labs in NOLA and confiscate all of Oswald's employment records... These two actions represented two time periods in Oswald's life when the records show he was in two different places at the same time... NONE, I repeat - NONE of the original records are available... ALL FBI records of Oswald's life are copies... and the originals are nowhere to be found... How are Oswald 1954 school records and his 1957/8 employment records germaine to the investigation?
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
11-04-2014, 12:58 AM
FBI Agent Fain lived down the street from Marguerite's 2220 Thomas Place address - across the street from Stripling JHS (as did Paul Gregory who confirmed Oswald's Russian speaking ability)
Fred Korth handled Ekdahl's divorce... How would anyone know about this tidbit found in Armstrong's Baylor notebook on 2220 Thomas Pl.... where so much Evidence lays and was not included in the book for a variety of reasons? If I was to focus on Brennan and no one else, we have Oswald shooting three times, end of story... until you actually READ what the man said, when he said it and whether there is any corroboration for it... But on an island, Brennan is golden... If one chooses not to include CONTEXT in their thinking or analytical conclusions. one will get what one deserves... [ATTACH=CONFIG]5885[/ATTACH]
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
11-04-2014, 10:50 AM
That dig wasn't at you, it was more about the subjectivity of moderation. So it was poorly placed.
I've put time in to the Assassination - thousands and thousands of pages. But 'Harvey and Lee' and 'Bloody Treason' have both eluded me. Consequently, I maintain no position on their conclusions. I just found Parker's posts interesting and always found him on the level.
11-04-2014, 05:32 PM
Mitchell Severson Wrote:That dig wasn't at you, it was more about the subjectivity of moderation. So it was poorly placed. Understood... I didn't take it as a dig at me, just wanted to mention why he may have been banned... I've discussed the case with GP over many years Mitchell.. From my experience that which he uses as evidence to bedunk is never very strong or even appropriate to the discussion. In most every case the subject matter of his arguments are laced with speculation and his own theiories about other people and what COULD be possible... As we've come to learn, anyone can argue the "against" side of the discussion... Evidence could be created/altered, memories fade, tonsils grow back, scars fade... What can't be argued against is the totality of the evidence and the strangeness of the FBI's concern over the time periods in Oswald's life having no bearing at all on the case at hand. Do a quick search on James Earl Ray or Sirhan Sirhan and see how much time and effort the FBI put to creating their life's narrative... I did and only found fleeting mentions of James dropping out of high school... not the year by year, grade by grade minutia we find in the JFK investigation. What people like GP fail to grasp is the YEARS of work interviewing those who the FBI hide away to get at the heart and truth of the matter. One can always claim Dennis David or Paul O'Connor are lying... if they stood alone on an island... but once you expand the view and see how corroborated their accounts are... and then look at the scores of people who knew LEE and claim the HARVEY, the man Ruby shot, was NOT him... and then you check the records and find copies of copies which do not work together, or finally find original Unit Diaries which contradict the "agreed upon" timelines while corroborating stories like Felde's or Donavan's or Powers'... one ought to take a minute from talking tonsils and do the research. GP did not, does not do that... go over to his forum Mitchell... just read the  :..ing that passes for posts and the vile attacks on this forum and its members who disagree with GP and his approach... or Hasan's blog... angry little men with nothing to do but to lash out in their little corner of the internet... and offer nothing to forward our knowledge of anything.Talking about inches, or unsigned undocumented FBI reports reeks of cointelpro tactics for derailing productive conversation. I expected more from GP than voodoo tonsils and obscure theories based on a single sentence he picked out of a review somewhere - would it be fair to talk theological inconsistencies with a priest if you have never bothered to read the bible? ... just cause you kinda know what the story is...? IDK what GP's point or direction was... if purely to debunk H&L he comes woefully unprepared... if only to attack Armstrong and the H&L evidence, I find his attacks hollow and inadequate for the task.... He wants to know where I get my copies of documents... he remained so unaware of 99% of the evdience yet can take to his soapbox and berate others for having done their homework and challenge his POV... Mitchell - I appreciate those who admit they are not prepared to have these conversations... Or just as prepared to take what we post and question it realistically... I am not a cult member here (as GP has accused me of) I took the time to determine what the evidence - not Armstrong - says... and it points to two different people from both a forward moving timeline as well as a backward looking one where the FBI created/altered/destroyed the documents needed to support/uncover the charade. John and I are discussing the 5 most important and most unassailable facts to try and help me create a post that makes the evidence mroe "real"... The Stripling/Kudlaty situation and 2220 Thomas Place is hard to argue against... The different platoons and timing of the Marine records vs those that spent time with Lee or Harvey is also supported by a massive number of docs The movements in and out of Russia and the "coincidences" of Marina's clouded history and Webster's involvement couplded with Goodpasture's actions So please stay tuned and question everything... it is my pleasure to REMOVE FROM THE TABLE speculation in place of evidence... or remove the speculation. One has to expect some theorizing from an author who chose thousands of pages of evidence NOT to include due to it's inability to be corroborated. If you have not, I suggest you visit this site and simply take in the enormity of the project John embarked upon and resulted in. There are tens of thousands of pages on every subject under the sun, with copies of documents directly from the archives... not MFF 20th generation donations. He saw with his own eyes how the FBI offered evidence was left terribly incomplete or damaged or missing... only to be told it was never there to begin with (ie the microfilm from Kleins from where the Hidell order was "printed" was sent to the Archives - and subsequesntly has disappeared... no way now to know what was on the original orders) On the other hand, if you are not that interested - and not many are - don't bother.... but unlike GP you do not seem to be attacking those who have done the work and do have the answers. You are not claiming things "just couldn't be" based on your own feelings on the subject while offering nothing in the way of evidence... and yet, when he finally did offer evidence, he berates others for seeing a certain number on a form while he is so blinded by his anger toward this subject he has to fein blindness and stupidity to get his point across. I really do appreciate you taking an active part in this Mitchell... H&L remains so far over most people's heads and so difficult to approach that all we ever really get are the GP's making false arguments. QUESTION AWAY everyone.... pick it apart and show us the inconsistencies... but at least familiarize yourself with the info first... no? http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm...ion/po-arm
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
11-04-2014, 10:10 PM
David Josephs Wrote:John and I are discussing the 5 most important and most unassailable facts to try and help me create a post that makes the evidence mroe "real"... Good luck with this project. We REALLY need it and you can no doubt do a great job! Here is my current Top 10 list of uncomplicated and well documented examples of two Oswalds: 10. The IMPOSSIBLE 1953 school scenario: Harvey at Youth House for truancy followed by Beauregard JHS in New Orleans while Lee has good attendance both semesters at PS 44 in NYC.
9. John Pic's inability to recognize clear photographs of his own brother. 8. The refusal of the Social Security Administration to corroborate the official story of "Oswald's" pre-1962 income, offering instead "Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report regarding employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps." 7. The Marine Corps records are a gold mine: my favorite chronicles Harvey Oswald's trip to Formosa (Taiwan) while Lee was being treated for VD in Japan. 6. The Bolton Ford incident while Harvey was in Russia. 5. Marita Lorenz's secret testimony describing Lee Oswald with anti-Castro operatives in Miami and the Everglades while Harvey was in Russia. 4. Lee Oswald visiting the Texas Employment Commission, filling out forms and taking tests, while Harvey was in Russia. 3. The impossible answer(s) to the simple questions: Could Lee Harvey Oswald drive a car? Did he have a drivers license? 2. The well documented appearance of Lee Oswald in the balcony of the Texas Theater soon after the murder of J.D. Tippit with the simultaneous arrest of Harvey Oswald on the main floor of the same theater. 1. The behavior of the FBI in the first 48 hours of the "investigation," during which the Bureau confiscated most of "Lee Harvey Oswald's" school records and employment histories. Six months later, the Bureau decided to test for fingerprints on boxes in the so-called "sniper's nest." Again, good luck with this project, David, and thanks for your many excellent posts.
13-04-2014, 12:14 AM
Jim Hargrove Wrote:David Josephs Wrote:John and I are discussing the 5 most important and most unassailable facts to try and help me create a post that makes the evidence mroe "real"... How does the Bolton Ford Incident support the H & L hypothesis? The traditional interpretation, I thought, is that the use of the LHO name only indicates his prior association with intelligence work generally or with the anti-Castro cause specifically. Also, didn't Gaeton Fonzi obliterate Marita Lorenz's credibility? I'm not implying that she hadn't been involved in at least that Castro assassination plot, and I don't think Fonzi did either, but her credibility otherwise seemed wanting.
13-04-2014, 06:10 AM
Mitchell Severson Wrote:How does the Bolton Ford Incident support the H & L hypothesis? The traditional interpretation, I thought, is that the use of the LHO name only indicates his prior association with intelligence work generally or with the anti-Castro cause specifically. Yes, throughout so much of the history of Official LHO, he seems to be impersonated by someone time and time again. How many times do we accept yet another impersonation until we begin to suspect something else must be at play here? In the Bolton Ford case, since Lee HARVEY Oswald was clearly in Russia during these years, what were researchers to think? [ATTACH=CONFIG]5898[/ATTACH] And just a few months later, Oswald is again trying to buy a car in New Orleans, this time at the Dumas and Milnes dealership. [ATTACH=CONFIG]5899[/ATTACH] These are not casual sightings, and there are many more. Either Oswald was being impersonated time after time over a period extending a full decade, or there were two Oswalds. Mitchell Severson Wrote:Also, didn't Gaeton Fonzi obliterate Marita Lorenz's credibility? I'm not implying that she hadn't been involved in at least that Castro assassination plot, and I don't think Fonzi did either, but her credibility otherwise seemed wanting. I wouldn't dismiss her sworn testimony so lightly. Look at the wringer the HSCA put her through (my emphasis toward end): Mr. Fithian. "Mrs. Lorenz, has your attorney explained what perjury before a
congressional committee is all about?"
Marita Lorenz. "That is right, yes."
Mr. Fithian. "Do you understand that."
Marita Lorenz. "Yes."
Mr. Fithian. "In any way do you want to change your testimony on these dates."
Marita Lorenz. "No, I do not."
Mr. Fithian. "There is adequate documentary evidence that "Lee Harvey
Oswald" did not indeed return from the Soviet Union until June of 1962.
Marita Lorenz. "I don't know about that."
Mr. Fithian. "Therefore you could not have met him at the Safehouse in 1960,
you could not have seen him in the Everglades in 1960 and 1961, and you
could not have taken a picture in those areas and could not have a picture
for the dates of that time."
Marita Lorenz. "No?"
Mr. Fithian. "It is not possible."
Marita Lorenz. "I don't know about that."
Mr. Fithian. "Now can you explain to the committee why you gave us this false
information as far as dates."
Marita Lorenz. "I did not give you false information."
Mr. Fithian. "Mrs. Lorenz, I went over your testimony very carefully a moment
ago and you assured me that you met Lee Harvey Oswald prior to the Bay
of Pigs."
Marita Lorenz. "I did."
Mr. Fithian. "On two occasions."
Marita Lorenz. "Yes."
Mr. Fithian. "Lee Harvey Oswald was in Russia during that entire period."
Marita Lorenz. "I do not know that. I did not know that. The Lee Harvey
Oswald that I met was the same in that picture, the one in the Safehouse,
the same one that Frank knows. I do not know where he was according to
your information. I do not know. I never read up on anything about these
theories that are coming out about him."
Mr. Fithian. "This is not a matter of theory."
Marita Lorenz. "I know I am telling the truth. If you don't want it, that's too bad,
you know. I am here to gain nothing, you know. Nothing. Nothing at all. You
are trying a homicide investigation that should be solved, you know. Don't
dispute me or put me on trial."
Mr. Fithian. "Only if we can have full and truthful testimony."
Marita Lorenz. "You have got it. You have it from me. I don't know about the
other people. I have nothing to lose and nothing to hide-nothing."
Mr. Fithian. "And it is your testimony that you are certain that the person you
met at the Safehouse and at the camps of the Everglades is the same per*
son that you met in Dallas?"
Marita Lorenz. "Yes, it is."
Mr. Fithian. "Do you have any explanation for how we come up with two 'Lee
Harvey Oswalds' during this period?"
Marita Lorenz. "I have no explanation. I know the man I met; he was a creep,
I didn't like him. I don't have to be here at all. I have nothing to gain."
Mr. Fithian. "Thank you. That is all."
I hope even skeptics of the two Oswalds will take the time to read Harvey and Lee. It may change your mind, and in the unlikely event it doesn't, you will still learn a whole lot. Jim |
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