The Most Important Error the FBI told the Warren Commission about the Rifle

[Bob Prudhomme]

I'm not a shooter myself, but it sounds as if they're trying to imply that the fact that the gun shoots high and to the right works in his favor (as an automatic lead), but, as I remember my Dealey Plaza layout, and also Frazier testified that, no correction for lead would have been necessary, or helpful, in making the shot. The car wasn't really moving to the right at all from the perspective of the "sniper's nest" (in fact would have tracked a bit to the left from "magic bullet" to head shot) and not moving fast enough away to make much of a difference.

I agree that this is utter nonsense but, unfortunately, it is only Mr. Frazier's opinion and not what I was after.

The outrageous thing in Mr. Frazier's testimony is that he tells us he and two colleagues each fired three shots, with the assassination rifle, at different targets at 15 yards, and each of these shots hit the 15 yard targets 2.5 - 4 inches high of the point of aim.

He then further outrages any thinking person with even the slightest experience with shooting rifles by telling the WC that he and his two colleagues then each fired three shots, with the same rifle, at targets set up at 100 yards, and all bullets struck their 100 yard targets 2.5 - 5 inches high of the point of aim.

What Mr. Frazier has testified to here is physically impossible, and tomorrow I will show you exactly why that is true. If there is any truth to Frazier's testimony about the rifle shooting 2.5 - 4 inches high at 15 yards, C2766 is disqualified as being the assassination weapon; at least as far as shooting with the scope is concerned. I will explain all of this tomorrow, as well.

So until we get your awaiited explanation, Bob, is it right to assume that 2.5- 4 inches high of point of aim at 15 yards when converted to 100 yards would be 16-25 inches high of point of aim? (6.6 times the distance?)

Hi Ray

You are close, but it is even worse than what you think, by quite a bit. I had earlier attempted to employ algebra in determining how much above the point of aim at 100 yards the bullets would be impacting. Instead, I chose a more professional method and decided to employ a handy ballistics calculator found at this site http://www.handloads.com/calc/ . I entered all the relevant data concerning the Carcano and its ammunition. Muzzle velocity, as testified by Frazier, 2165 fps, bullet weight = 162 grains, ballistic coefficient (from another calculator) = .322 and sight height (centreline of scope distance above centreline of bore) as determined by Drew = 1.5".

In order to have a bullet impact a target at 15 yards and have that impact 2.5 inches high of the "point of aim" or line of sight (as claimed by Frazier) it was necessary, on this calculator, to zero the rifle at 5.5 yards. In other words, if the rifle was hitting 2.5 inches high at 15 yards, it would be dead on at 5.5 yards; the point at where the line of sight and the bullet path cross.

This diagram shows what I mean.


Notice that the bullet path crosses the line of sight just out from the muzzle, and again at the target.

The results I found with a target zero of 5.5 yards are shown below. Note that, at 0 yards, the figure in all calculations is -1.5", due to the fact that our barrel centreline is 1.5 inches below the scope centreline. The bullet will always, in this rifle, begin its journey 1.5 inches below the line of sight.

I just realized that the heading titles at the top of each number column did not c/p along with the numbers. The most important numbers to us are the first three columns and they are, left to right, Range (in yards), Muzzle Velocity (in feet per second) and Impact (measured in inches either below the line of sight, in negative numbers, or above the line of sight)
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2165[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-1.5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1686[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2148[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-0.14[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.03[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.01[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1660[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.43[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]10[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2136[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.21[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.07[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.02[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1641[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.44[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2123[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.54[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.13[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.02[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1621[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.46[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]20[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2111[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.85[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.21[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.03[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1603[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.49[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]25[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2099[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.14[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.31[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.04[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1585[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.52[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]30[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2087[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.42[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.43[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.04[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1567[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.56[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]35[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2074[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.67[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.57[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.05[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1547[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.61[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]40[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2062[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]8.9[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.73[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.06[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1530[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.67[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]45[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2050[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]10.11[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.91[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.07[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1512[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.73[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]50[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2038[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]11.3[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.11[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.07[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1494[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]55[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2026[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]12.47[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.33[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.08[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1477[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.88[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]60[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2014[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]13.61[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.58[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.09[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1459[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.96[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]65[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2002[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]14.74[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.84[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.1[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1442[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.05[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]70[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1990[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15.84[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.13[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.1[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1425[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]75[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1979[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]16.92[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.44[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.11[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1409[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]80[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1967[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]17.98[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.77[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.12[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1392[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.38[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]85[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1955[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]19.02[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.12[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.13[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1375[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]90[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1943[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]20.04[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.13[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1358[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.63[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]95[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1932[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]21.03[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.9[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.14[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1343[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.77[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]100[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1920[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]22[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.32[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.15[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1326[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.91[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Looking at the range and impact columns, we can see the impact figure of -.14" at 5 yards. This is correct, as the rifle scope is zeroed at 5.5 yards, and the bullet is about to cross the line of sight at 5.5 yards. Further down, we can see, at 15 yards, the bullet is now 2.54" above the line of sight; precisely where Frazier claimed one of the FBI shooters was hitting a 15 yard target.

Now it gets interesting. If we scroll down to 100 yards, we find the rifle zeroed at 5.5 yards, and impacting 2.54" high at 15 yards, is impacting a 100 yard target 22 inches above the point of aim.

However, if we look again at Frazier's testimony, we find that Frazier's three shots at a 15 yard target impacted 4 inches high of the point of aim. Let's see how that changes things on the trajectory. In order to have a bullet impacting the target 4.08" high at 15 yards, it was necessary to zero the scope at 4 yards. The results are shown below:

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2165[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-1.5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1686[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2148[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.37[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.03[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.01[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1660[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.43[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]10[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2136[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.23[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.07[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.02[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1641[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.44[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2123[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.08[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.13[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.02[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1621[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.46[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]20[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2111[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.9[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.21[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.03[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1603[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.49[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]25[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2099[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.7[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.31[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.04[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1585[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.52[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]30[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2087[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]9.48[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.43[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.04[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1567[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.56[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]35[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2074[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]11.24[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.57[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.05[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1547[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.61[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]40[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2062[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]12.99[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.73[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.06[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1530[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.67[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]45[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2050[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]14.71[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.91[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.07[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1512[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.73[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]50[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2038[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]16.41[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.11[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.07[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1494[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]55[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2026[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]18.09[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.33[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.08[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1477[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.88[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]60[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2014[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]19.74[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.58[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.09[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1459[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.96[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]65[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2002[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]21.39[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.84[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.1[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1442[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.05[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]70[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1990[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]23[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.13[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.1[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1425[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]75[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1979[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]24.59[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.44[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.11[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1409[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]80[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1967[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]26.16[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.77[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.12[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1392[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.38[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]85[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1955[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]27.71[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.12[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.13[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1375[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]90[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1943[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]29.23[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.13[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1358[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.63[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]95[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1932[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]30.74[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.9[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.14[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1343[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.77[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]100[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1920[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]32.22[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.32[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.15[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1326[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.91[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[Bob Prudhomme]

Sorry about that. I had to end the last post at the bottom of that table, as I could not find a way to type past it.

Anyways, our figures for the 4 yard zero and 4" high impact at 15 yards now give us a figure, at 100 yards, of 32.22", meaning this rifle would shoot 32.22" high of the point of aim at 100 yards.


I'm afraid Mr. Frazier has some explaining to do, as his testimony states that the rifle only shot 2.5 - 5 inches high of the point of aim at 100 yards and not the 22 - 32.22 inches high the ballistics calculator shows.

[Drew Phipps]

1. Don't the error figures creep back down eventually? How far does the target have to be for the bullet to come back to the LOS under the 2 scenarios you did above? And how (if at all) does this affect the regular sights, which were supposed to be "zeroed" at some specific number by the manufacturer?

2. What does the chart look like if you make Frazier's 100 yard shots come out "right," i.e. if he can hit 2.5 to 5 inches above at 100 yards, what do the shorter numbers look like?

PS: the FBI said in a report in 1964 that the angle change from "magic bullet" to head shot was actually 3 degrees upward and 1.5 degrees to the right, not left. Still, not much of a lead, if any, would be required, if 1.5 degrees right happens in 2-3 seconds and the bullet makes the journey in 1/10th of a second or so. This particular report from Hoover to the Commission, (dated 1/20/64 Weisberg file 298) has the FBI promoting the idea that the first shot that hit JFK was not the shot that hit Connally, a position it maintained from its first report 12/9/63 to 1/20/64 (at least).

[Bob Prudhomme]

1. Don't the error figures creep back down eventually? How far does the target have to be for the bullet to come back to the LOS under the 2 scenarios you did above? And how (if at all) does this affect the regular sights, which were supposed to be "zeroed" at some specific number by the manufacturer?

2. What does the chart look like if you make Frazier's 100 yard shots come out "right," i.e. if he can hit 2.5 to 5 inches above at 100 yards, what do the shorter numbers look like?

PS: the FBI said in a report in 1964 that the angle change from "magic bullet" to head shot was actually 3 degrees upward and 1.5 degrees to the right, not left. Still, not much of a lead, if any, would be required, if 1.5 degrees right happens in 2-3 seconds and the bullet makes the journey in 1/10th of a second or so. This particular report from Hoover to the Commission, (dated 1/20/64 Weisberg file 298) has the FBI promoting the idea that the first shot that hit JFK was not the shot that hit Connally, a position it maintained from its first report 12/9/63 to 1/20/64 (at least).

Here are the results of zeroing the rifle at 4 yards. This time, we have chosen 100 yard intervals and taken our maximum range out to 1000 yards.

[TABLE]
RangeVelocityImpactDropToFEnergyDrift[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2165[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-1.5[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1686[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]100[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1920[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]32.22[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.32[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.15[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1326[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.91[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]200[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1698[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]56.43[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]18.15[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.32[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1037[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.61[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]300[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1498[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]68.49[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]44.13[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]807[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15.05[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]400[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1325[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]64.96[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]85.69[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.72[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]632[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]27.74[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]500[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1184[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]41.61[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]147.08[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.96[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]504[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]44.99[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]600[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1082[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-6.43[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]233.16[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.22[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]421[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]66.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]700[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1009[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-83.9[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]348.67[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.51[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]366[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]91.96[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]800[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]954[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-195.11[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]497.92[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.82[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]327[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]120.48[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]900[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]910[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-343.88[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]684.73[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.14[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]298[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]151.71[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1000[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]872[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-533.7[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]912.59[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.48[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]274[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]185.46[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

As can be seen, the bullet comes back down to the line of sight, and is zeroed again at somewhere just under 600 yards.

Here are the same parameters, only this time zeroed at 5.5 yards;

[TABLE]
RangeVelocityImpactDropToFEnergyDrift[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2165[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-1.5[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1686[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]100[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1920[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]22[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.32[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.15[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1326[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.91[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]200[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1698[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]35.98[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]18.15[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.32[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1037[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.61[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]300[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1498[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]37.82[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]44.13[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]807[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15.05[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]400[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1325[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]24.08[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]85.69[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.72[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]632[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]27.74[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]500[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1184[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-9.49[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]147.08[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.96[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]504[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]44.99[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]600[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1082[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-67.76[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]233.16[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.22[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]421[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]66.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]700[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1009[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-155.45[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]348.67[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.51[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]366[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]91.96[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]800[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]954[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-276.88[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]497.92[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.82[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]327[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]120.48[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]900[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]910[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-435.87[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]684.73[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.14[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]298[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]151.71[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1000[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]872[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-635.92[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]912.59[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.48[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]274[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]185.46[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

This time, the bullet comes down to the line of sight at just under 500 yards.

Next we will calculate for a rifle impacting 2.5 inches and 5 inches high at 100 yards. By trial and error, we find this rifle will hit 2.5 inches high at 100 yards if zeroed at 167 yards.
[TABLE]
RangeVelocityImpactDropToFEnergyDrift[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2165[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-1.5[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1686[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2123[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-0.38[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.13[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.02[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1621[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.46[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]30[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2087[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.57[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.43[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.04[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1567[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.56[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]45[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2050[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.33[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.91[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.07[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1512[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.73[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]60[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2014[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.91[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.58[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.09[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1459[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.96[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]75[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1979[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.3[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.44[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.11[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1409[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]90[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1943[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.49[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.13[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1358[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.63[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]105[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1909[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.46[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.77[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.16[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1311[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.07[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]120[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1874[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.23[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.25[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.18[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1263[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.58[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]135[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1840[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.77[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.96[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.21[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1218[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.16[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]150[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1807[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.08[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]9.9[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.23[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1175[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.83[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]165[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1774[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.14[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]12.08[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.26[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1132[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.57[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]180[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1741[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-1.04[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]14.51[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.28[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1090[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.39[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]195[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1709[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-2.48[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]17.2[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.31[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1051[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.29[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]210[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1677[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-4.18[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]20.15[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.33[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1012[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.27[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

However, we now find that the bullet is .38 inches below the line of sight at 15 yards, not the 2.5 - 4 inches above the line of sight claimed by Frazier.

Frazier is not telling the truth.

If we zero the rifle at 220 yards, we now find the bullet impacting 5 inches high at 100 yards:

[TABLE]
RangeVelocityImpactDropToFEnergyDrift[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2165[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-1.5[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1686[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2123[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-0.01[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.13[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.02[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1621[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.46[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]30[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2087[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.31[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.43[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.04[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1567[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.56[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]45[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2050[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.45[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.91[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.07[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1512[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.73[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]60[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2014[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.41[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.58[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.09[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1459[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.96[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]75[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1979[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.17[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.44[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.11[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1409[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]90[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1943[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.73[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.13[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1358[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.63[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]105[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1909[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.08[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.77[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.16[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1311[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.07[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]120[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1874[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.22[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.25[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.18[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1263[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.58[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]135[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1840[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.13[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.96[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.21[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1218[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.16[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]150[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1807[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.81[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]9.9[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.23[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1175[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.83[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]165[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1774[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.25[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]12.08[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.26[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1132[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.57[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]180[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1741[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.45[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]14.51[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.28[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1090[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.39[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]195[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1709[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.38[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]17.2[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.31[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1051[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.29[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]210[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1677[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.05[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]20.15[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.33[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1012[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.27[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]225[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1646[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-0.57[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]23.39[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.36[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]975[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]8.34[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]240[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1616[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-2.47[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]26.91[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.39[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]939[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]9.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]255[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1585[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-4.68[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]30.74[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.42[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]904[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]10.75[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Now we find, with the rifle zeroed at 220 yards, the bullet to be .01 inch below the line of sight at 15 yards, not the 2.5 - 4 inches above the line of sight claimed by Frazier.

Frazier is not telling the truth.

Your questions in your post script are very confusing, and I do not see what relevance they have to the topic of this thread.

[Bob Prudhomme]

The favorite Lone Nut argument is that Oswald would have made the first shot with the scope and the next two shots with the open sights. There are serious problems with this argument and, under close scrutiny, the argument does not stand up to any serious critiquing.

To begin with, we have just proven that the Carcano rifle found on the 6th floor will, if impacting a target at 15 yards 2.5 - 4 inches high, impact a target at 100 yards 22 - 32 inches high of the point of aim. No one, even someone with Marine training, can compensate this much when shooting at a moving target. Even at 88 yards, the distance of the head shot, the rifle is shooting 20 - 29 inches high. This is further compounded by the fact the shot was downhill. Shooting downhill will make the bullet go even higher. I do not believe the scope could have been used to make any of the shots.

Suffice it to say, the scope on C2766 was so badly mounted and out of adjustment, bullets would have been impacting a target 22 - 32 inches high at 100 yards, if we are to believe Frazier's testimony. The question we must now ask ourselves is, why was the scope still on the rifle when it was found on the 6th floor? If Oswald practiced with this rifle, as claimed by the Warren Commission, he would have immediately become aware of the fact that the scope was beyond useless and, unless re-mounted by a gunsmith, could not be used to shoot this rifle.


Why did Oswald simply not remove the scope and scope mount and use the open sights to practice, long before he even thought about bringing the rifle to the TSBD? The scope mount is held onto the rifle by two tiny slotted screws. One minute with a flat bladed screwdriver would have removed the scope and mount, giving Oswald complete unencumbered access to the open sights. It is true that it is possible to use open sights on a rifle with a side mounted scope. However, and I can say this from personal experience, it is extremely awkward to do so, and the first instinct to surface, when attempting this, is to simply remove the stupid scope. I simply refuse to believe Oswald would have left the scope on the rifle if he had every intention of using open sights to assassinate JFK.


The next argument the Lone Nuts use is that Oswald banged the scope on his way across the 6th floor and knocked it out of adjustment. It is true that rough handling has the potential to put scopes out of adjustment, but in amounts of an inch or two at 100 yards. For a rifle to go from shooting fairly accurately to being 32 inches high at 100 yards, simply from rough handling, is impossible. There simply is not that much adjustment available in a rifle scope. Oswald would have to hit the scope hard enough to actually bend the tube at some point, and this would have made it impossible for anyone in the FBI to have even used this scope; despite the addition of shims and any subsequent adjustments.

[Bob Prudhomme]

Here are two views of a 6.5mm Carcano M91/38 short rifle with scopes mounted of the same make and in the same fashion as C2766:





Although it is possible to use the open sights seen in the bottom photo, it is extremely awkward and requires the shooter's forehead to be practically in contact with the scope. The scope mount is very distracting to a shooter trying to concentrate on the front and rear sight.

Next, the bolt handle, although curved, must be turned up to a vertical position before the bolt can be pulled back. As can be seen, this would place the hand operating the bolt in close proximity with the scope. During rapid firing, the scope is almost sure to get in the way.

The solution is simple; if the scope is totally useless, why not spend one minute undoing the two screws attaching the scope mount and simply remove scope and mount?

[Bob Prudhomme]

In order to calculate anything for the open sights, we need to establish how high the notch in the rear sight is above the centreline of the barrel.

[Drew Phipps]

In order to calculate anything for the open sights, we need to establish how high the notch in the rear sight is above the centreline of the barrel.

From Mike Yardle, Positive Shooting: (open sights) " The gun was 6 feet or more off target at 100 yards. Frank and I thought it a waste of time considering the open sights from this point on - it was evident to both of us that Oswald could not have used them unless his hits were pure chance - anyone who suggests otherwise has no practical experience of the Carcano."

Are the open sights adjustable, or fixed at the factory?

Using the NARA photo it looks to me like the tip of the sight at the end of the barrel is .69 inches above the center of the barrel, and the top of the notch site is .85 inches above the centerline of the barrel. gonna see if I can estimate the depth of the notch...

Best I can get from the available photos is that the bottom of the rear notch would be from .49 to .53 inches above the centerline of the barrel, but this is really approaching the limit of digital photo uncertainty, namely that one pixel is basically the difference. Would the lowest point of the rear notch be ~.5 inches and the tip of the end sight be ~.85 inches?

Heck, maybe the shooter just shut his eyes.

[Bob Prudhomme]

In order to calculate anything for the open sights, we need to establish how high the notch in the rear sight is above the centreline of the barrel.

From Mike Yardle, Positive Shooting: (open sights) " The gun was 6 feet or more off target at 100 yards. Frank and I thought it a waste of time considering the open sights from this point on - it was evident to both of us that Oswald could not have used them unless his hits were pure chance - anyone who suggests otherwise has no practical experience of the Carcano."

Are the open sights adjustable, or fixed at the factory?

Using the NARA photo it looks to me like the tip of the sight at the end of the barrel is .69 inches above the center of the barrel, and the top of the notch site is .85 inches above the centerline of the barrel. gonna see if I can estimate the depth of the notch...

Best I can get from the available photos is that the bottom of the rear notch would be from .49 to .53 inches above the centerline of the barrel, but this is really approaching the limit of digital photo uncertainty, namely that one pixel is basically the difference. Would the lowest point of the rear notch be ~.5 inches and the tip of the end sight be ~.85 inches?

Heck, maybe the shooter just shut his eyes.

I shouldn't say that the open sights on the M91/38 are fixed. The rear sight, controlling elevation, is fixed. The front sight, like any military rifle, can be moved sideways by an armourer to make left and right adjustments on the rifle's aim point. I'm not sure about the Carcano but, as some military rifles' barrels wear and their shots begin falling short of the target, it is possible to replace the front blade sight with a shorter blade that will bring the front of the barrel up when a soldier aims the rifle.

It does seem a bit odd for the front sight to be higher than the rear sight, as the intention is for the bullet to cross the line of sight at some point. For the calculation, let's just go with the rear sight at .5 inch above the barrel centreline and see what we get.

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2165[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-0.5[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1686[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2133[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.08[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.03[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.01[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1637[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.44[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]10[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2110[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.66[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.07[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.02[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1602[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.46[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2087[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.21[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.13[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.02[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1567[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]20[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2064[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.74[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.21[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.03[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1532[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.55[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]25[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2041[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.26[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.31[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.04[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1499[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.61[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]30[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2019[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.74[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.44[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.05[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1466[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.69[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]35[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1996[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.21[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.58[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.05[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1433[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.79[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]40[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1974[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.66[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.75[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.06[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1402[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.89[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]45[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1952[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.08[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.94[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.07[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1371[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.01[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]50[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1930[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.48[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.15[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.08[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1340[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]55[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1908[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.86[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.38[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.08[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1310[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]60[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1887[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.22[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.64[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.09[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1281[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.47[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]65[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1865[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.55[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.92[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.1[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1251[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.65[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]70[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1844[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.85[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.23[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.11[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1223[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.85[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]75[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1823[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.13[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.57[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.12[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1196[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.06[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]80[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1802[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.38[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.93[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.12[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1168[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.29[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]85[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1781[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.61[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.31[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.13[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1141[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.53[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]90[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1760[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.81[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.73[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.14[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1114[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]95[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1740[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.98[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.17[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.15[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1089[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.07[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]100[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1720[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.12[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.64[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.16[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1064[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.37[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]105[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1700[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.24[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.14[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.17[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1040[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.69[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]110[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1680[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.32[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.67[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.18[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1015[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]115[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1660[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.37[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.23[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.19[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]991[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.37[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]120[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1641[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.39[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.83[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.19[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]969[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.73[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]125[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1621[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.38[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.45[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.2[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]945[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.12[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]130[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1602[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.33[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]8.11[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.21[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]923[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.52[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]135[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1583[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.24[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]8.81[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.22[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]901[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.95[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]140[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1565[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.14[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]9.53[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.23[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]881[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.39[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]145[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1546[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.98[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]10.3[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.24[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]860[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.85[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]150[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1528[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.79[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]11.1[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.25[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]840[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.33[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]155[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1510[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.58[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]11.93[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.26[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]820[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.83[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]160[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1492[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.31[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]12.81[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.27[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]801[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]8.36[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]165[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1475[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.01[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]13.72[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.28[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]783[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]8.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]170[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1457[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.67[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]14.68[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.29[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]764[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]9.46[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]175[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1440[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.29[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15.67[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.3[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]746[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]10.04[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]180[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1423[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.86[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]16.71[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.31[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]728[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]10.65[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]185[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1407[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]4.4[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]17.79[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.32[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]712[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]11.27[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]190[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1390[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.89[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]18.91[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.33[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]695[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]11.92[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]195[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1374[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.33[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]20.08[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.34[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]679[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]12.58[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]200[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1359[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.73[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]21.3[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.36[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]664[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]13.27[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]205[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1343[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.08[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]22.56[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.37[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]649[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]13.98[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]210[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1328[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.38[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]23.87[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.38[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]634[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]14.71[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]215[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1313[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.64[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]25.23[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.39[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]620[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]15.47[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]220[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1299[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]-0.16[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]26.64[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.4[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]607[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]16.24[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

The above shows the Carcano zeroed at 219 yards. At 15 yards, the bullet is 1.21 inches above the line of sight. At 100 yards, the bullet is 7.12 inches above the line of sight. At 88 yards, the distance of the headshot, the bullet is still almost 7 inches above the line of sight. This was not what one would call a flat shooting rifle.

Once again, we have to take into consideration the fact that the shot was from six stories up. A downhill shot (and an uphill shot) will always impact higher than the point of aim, and this would only add to the problem of your bullet impacting 7 inches above the point of aim.

[Drew Phipps]

So is it safe to conclude from all the above analysis and charts that there simply isn't any ballistic curve that fits with all the numbers Frazier used or received in his experiments?

( muzzle velocity 2165, 15 yards= 4 inches high, 25 yards=4.5 inches high, 100 yards= 4 inches high)


If that is true, which assumptions could be changed in order to get the curve that Frazier describes: i.e. muzzle velocity? We know that if the FBI was using WCC bullets (.264 caliber) they might not have had the specified muzzle velocity for the weapon. Also the gunpowder would have been 10-20 years old at that point... Since Frazier apparently used textbooks instead of real measurements to acquire some of his numbers (like caliber and land/groove measurements), isn't it possible that he just picked a muzzle velocity out of a book instead of testing it himself?