The reason Nixon didn't get assassinated like Kennedy did is because of my father, all hell broke out when both assassination attempts failed the first being at the VVAW Convention in Miami Beach 1972.
Scott - Have you written more elsewhere about these attempts, and plans for the presidency in event of one or the other succeeding? Sorry if I've missed it.
I'm going to give you the help you so desperately need, I said, "Or, there is truly an anterior motive for the plan to fail." I said PLAN, not DESIGN, is this beginning to sink in yet? God! I really hope so.
David Andrews Wrote:The reason Nixon didn't get assassinated like Kennedy did is because of my father, all hell broke out when both assassination attempts failed the first being at the VVAW Convention in Miami Beach 1972.
Scott - Have you written more elsewhere about these attempts, and plans for the presidency in event of one or the other succeeding? Sorry if I've missed it.
I have, but I've not put a lot out there, on the net, I've posted information on FB, and in the FB forums, but I know not many read it and therefore the information gets missed, everything that I know about the incidents is in my up coming book.
Please don't take what I've said to you in the wrong way, I'm sure you're a good person and mean well, I was trying to get you to understand that there is a difference between plan and design. These are two different and separate words.
I did not mean to confuse you, but if I did, "teach" you something that is, my apologies.
Just know, that I could have kept this up for a few more days, but I thought it was time to end it. As I said, in one of my earlier post(s), I wanted to save the embarrassment of us both. ::thumbsup::
That's the great thing about opinions Scott... you can go on for days since you don't need to offer any supporting evidence of your conclusions...
You make a statement and then neither offer TRUTH or any of these BARE FACTS that supports it.
The problem I have is that I give people like you the benefit of the doubt... at least for a few posts until it becomes painfully obvious to all who read your posts here that you're stuck in opinion mode and will deflect each and every request for PROOF to a new and different subject...
I'm sorry you don't understand deep politics or history for that matter... it was your FATHER not you involved in these things... you don't get credibility by genetics or osmosis...
You get it by offering reasonable arguments backed by substance in support of your conclusions...
You repeatedly post assumptions and questions that illustrate your lack of insight and knowledge of history, context and CI.
All you've been able to muster is :
Quote: The TRUTH AND BARE FACTS...About the Bay of Pigs is that it was NOT "DESIGNED" for failure. <Period>!
So okay Scott.. your axoimatic expression is obviously a priori yet sadly tautological as well (it is because it is) you know, like Faith in the existence of G~d...
no need for proof, just Faith without question or logical thought... just BELIEVE.
A Priori
1a:deductive
b: relating to or derived by reasoning from self-evident propositions compare a posteriori c: presupposed by experience
2a: being without examination or analysis :presumptive
b: formed or conceived beforehand
In the real world with real subjects we expect a bit more than opinions and "trust me" evangelicalism...
We are talking about the plans of Allen Dulles with a Military willing to fein complete stupidity of the plan's chances, of the intelligence offered... and who understood that "plausible deniability" was impossible... (cause the military and JFK were such buddies as well, right?)
You contend there is no CHANCE it was PLANNED or DESIGNED to fail in it's overt objectives, while you talk about deeper conspiracies at every other turn...
Let's look at your original post...
Quote: I am so tried of reading the BULLSHIT that the BOP project was "designed to fail". Who the hell designs plans just so they can fail? The plan was never, ever design to fail. Nixon supported the plan, Kennedy wanted Castro dead. The only way that plan would have worked is had American military been used which by the way was apart of the original plan. Kennedy had a change of heart, and he feared what Russia would do in the wake had it be found out that America was behind the operation in the first place, so Kennedy decided there would be no military intervention, so how the hell do you design a plan that's destine to fail? Try having a change of heart! UGH!
Some folks really need to get a grip on reality, and stop being an on board roadie.
plans are not drawn up "designed to fail", that is not logical, they are however, drawn up with the attention of deceiving Congress or the President so that either one may call upon an act of war, Iraq, Guatemala, Kuwait and Afghanistan, Vietnam and 911. All wars drawn up by the CIA not designed to fail, but to deceive.
If Kennedy wanted Castro dead, why was he trying to normalize relations with Castro just before he himself was killed?
That's exactly what I mean by having a "change of heart" just as Kennedy did in the BOP. And, where did that get him? A shot in the back and one to the head.
Kennedy "tried" having peace talks with Castro, it was Castro who would keep putting them off, talking with Kennedy's (middle men and women) when Castro was good and ready, they weren't getting anywhere. So, Kennedy fired Bill Attwood. It wouldn't have looked good on Kennedy to be having these peace talks with Castro, especially because they weren't going anywhere. Had the anti-Castro Cubans found out Kennedy was doing this, Kennedy would have been long gone before 11/22/1963. Kennedy than started having these talks with Khrushchev in order to prevent war, Cuba was no real threat towards the United States, nor could it pose a communist take over of the United States, but Russia could, which is why Castro got very upset with Russia over having these talks behind Castro's back. Castro didn't really want a relation with the U.S. never.
My two cents.
Do you ever mention from who and where you read this? or just that you're tired... ?? ::
and the first sentences of Jim D's response
Quote: IMO, you're two cents is not worth two cents.
The Bay of Pigs operation was designed to fail. Period. We have this from Dick Bissell, Lyman Kirkpatrick (more or less) and above all Allen Dulles. And we have it not secondhand, but in their own words.
....
You should read Dulles answering these question under RFK's questioning during the Taylor hearings. He was caught by his own BS. This is all in new edition of Destiny Betrayed. You should read it sometime.
followed by EVIDENCE Scott... not opinion. And look at that, the same references to the same document that I linked you to, quoted from, and posted... The words of the people who were actually involved...
He then goes on to hand your your uninformed head on a platter... but that does not disuade you... FAITH in your own beliefs overshadows fact and history...
Finally, at post #25 you finally offer something concrete:
Quote: But, don't take my word for it.
We wont and never will Scott... I've reread this entire thread and you offer NOTHING in the way of supporting evidence for your TRUTH AND BARE FACTS conclusion. 25 posts about BOP and not a single mention of Bundy... and when we finally do ention him you offer an even more uninformed statement about the airstrikes being called off.
I then ask: Scott - what was the BoP invasion designed to accomplish?
your reply?
Quote:Mr. Josephs has eloquently answered it for me, he said, (and then you quote me) The intelligence indicated that there were quite a number of people that were ready to join in the fight against Castro...
Does not dawn on you that this was part of the planned deception, part of the planned failure of the overt operation to rid the western hemisphere of this communist threat... ::laughingdog::
This is now between you and me... I respect Jim immensely... for him to have taken the time to even TRY and help you understand the time and context was very generous of his time... I tried as well as I feel I too have a fairly good handle on the EVIDENCE... not just offering "my two cents" as you repeatedly remind us.
I am completely done now with you and this thread... your ignorance of the situation and history and refusal to stop parroting a faith based conclusion in general is duly noted...
The OVERT OBJECTIVES in the Invasion at the BOP were conceived, designed and planned to fail via the deception of the White House and JCS by Allen Dulles as part of a much larger plan to maneuver JFK into a position he refused to take (win-win for the CIA/JCS)... there was NEVER going to be air cover, NEVER going to be a US invasion, NEVER going to be a Cuban uprising... NEVER going to be a switch to Guerilla Warfare getting these men 60 miles into the hills... Dulles sacrificed these men - I know it's a hard pill to swallow... yet that's what happened.
The PLAN was presented where all these things were guaranteed for a variety of alterior motives... Your desire to maintain FAITH in your unsupported opinions notwithstanding. What's even more amusing is that you fail to understand that even if all of Castro's air powere was removed, none of the other elements of the plan could work... PLANNED FAILURE at every step.
Should you continue to want to play with yourself on this thread, so be it... It is on threads like this that I miss Charles and his no nonsense approach. I hope I am channeling even the smallest part of his passion to expose your type of discussion here.
Credibility is what you make it Scott... if you think this thread helps yours, ::
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Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
David Josephs Wrote:That's the great thing about opinions Scott... you can go on for days since you don't need to offer any supporting evidence of your conclusions...
You make a statement and then neither offer TRUTH or any of these BARE FACTS that supports it.
The problem I have is that I give people like you the benefit of the doubt... at least for a few posts until it becomes painfully obvious to all who read your posts here that you're stuck in opinion mode and will deflect each and every request for PROOF to a new and different subject...
I'm sorry you don't understand deep politics or history for that matter... it was your FATHER not you involved in these things... you don't get credibility by genetics or osmosis...
You get it by offering reasonable arguments backed by substance in support of your conclusions...
You repeatedly post assumptions and questions that illustrate your lack of insight and knowledge of history, context and CI.
All you've been able to muster is :
Quote: The TRUTH AND BARE FACTS...About the Bay of Pigs is that it was NOT "DESIGNED" for failure. <Period>!
So okay Scott.. your axoimatic expression is obviously a priori yet sadly tautological as well (it is because it is) you know, like Faith in the existence of G~d...
no need for proof, just Faith without question or logical thought... just BELIEVE.
A Priori
1a:deductive
b: relating to or derived by reasoning from self-evident propositions compare a posteriori c: presupposed by experience
2a: being without examination or analysis :presumptive
b: formed or conceived beforehand
In the real world with real subjects we expect a bit more than opinions and "trust me" evangelicalism...
We are talking about the plans of Allen Dulles with a Military willing to fein complete stupidity of the plan's chances, of the intelligence offered... and who understood that "plausible deniability" was impossible... (cause the military and JFK were such buddies as well, right?)
You contend there is no CHANCE it was PLANNED or DESIGNED to fail in it's overt objectives, while you talk about deeper conspiracies at every other turn...
Let's look at your original post...
Quote: I am so tried of reading the BULLSHIT that the BOP project was "designed to fail". Who the hell designs plans just so they can fail? The plan was never, ever design to fail. Nixon supported the plan, Kennedy wanted Castro dead. The only way that plan would have worked is had American military been used which by the way was apart of the original plan. Kennedy had a change of heart, and he feared what Russia would do in the wake had it be found out that America was behind the operation in the first place, so Kennedy decided there would be no military intervention, so how the hell do you design a plan that's destine to fail? Try having a change of heart! UGH!
Some folks really need to get a grip on reality, and stop being an on board roadie.
plans are not drawn up "designed to fail", that is not logical, they are however, drawn up with the attention of deceiving Congress or the President so that either one may call upon an act of war, Iraq, Guatemala, Kuwait and Afghanistan, Vietnam and 911. All wars drawn up by the CIA not designed to fail, but to deceive.
If Kennedy wanted Castro dead, why was he trying to normalize relations with Castro just before he himself was killed?
That's exactly what I mean by having a "change of heart" just as Kennedy did in the BOP. And, where did that get him? A shot in the back and one to the head.
Kennedy "tried" having peace talks with Castro, it was Castro who would keep putting them off, talking with Kennedy's (middle men and women) when Castro was good and ready, they weren't getting anywhere. So, Kennedy fired Bill Attwood. It wouldn't have looked good on Kennedy to be having these peace talks with Castro, especially because they weren't going anywhere. Had the anti-Castro Cubans found out Kennedy was doing this, Kennedy would have been long gone before 11/22/1963. Kennedy than started having these talks with Khrushchev in order to prevent war, Cuba was no real threat towards the United States, nor could it pose a communist take over of the United States, but Russia could, which is why Castro got very upset with Russia over having these talks behind Castro's back. Castro didn't really want a relation with the U.S. never.
My two cents.
Do you ever mention from who and where you read this? or just that you're tired... ?? ::
and the first sentences of Jim D's response
Quote: IMO, you're two cents is not worth two cents.
The Bay of Pigs operation was designed to fail. Period. We have this from Dick Bissell, Lyman Kirkpatrick (more or less) and above all Allen Dulles. And we have it not secondhand, but in their own words.
....
You should read Dulles answering these question under RFK's questioning during the Taylor hearings. He was caught by his own BS. This is all in new edition of Destiny Betrayed. You should read it sometime.
followed by EVIDENCE Scott... not opinion. And look at that, the same references to the same document that I linked you to, quoted from, and posted... The words of the people who were actually involved...
He then goes on to hand your your uninformed head on a platter... but that does not disuade you... FAITH in your own beliefs overshadows fact and history...
Finally, at post #25 you finally offer something concrete:
Quote: But, don't take my word for it.
We wont and never will Scott... I've reread this entire thread and you offer NOTHING in the way of supporting evidence for your TRUTH AND BARE FACTS conclusion. 25 posts about BOP and not a single mention of Bundy... and when we finally do ention him you offer an even more uninformed statement about the airstrikes being called off.
I then ask: Scott - what was the BoP invasion designed to accomplish?
your reply?
Quote:Mr. Josephs has eloquently answered it for me, he said, (and then you quote me) The intelligence indicated that there were quite a number of people that were ready to join in the fight against Castro...
Does not dawn on you that this was part of the planned deception, part of the planned failure of the overt operation to rid the western hemisphere of this communist threat... ::laughingdog::
This is now between you and me... I respect Jim immensely... for him to have taken the time to even TRY and help you understand the time and context was very generous of his time... I tried as well as I feel I too have a fairly good handle on the EVIDENCE... not just offering "my two cents" as you repeatedly remind us.
I am completely done now with you and this thread... your ignorance of the situation and history and refusal to stop parroting a faith based conclusion in general is duly noted...
The OVERT OBJECTIVES in the Invasion at the BOP were conceived, designed and planned to fail via the deception of the White House and JCS by Allen Dulles as part of a much larger plan to maneuver JFK into a position he refused to take (win-win for the CIA/JCS)... there was NEVER going to be air cover, NEVER going to be a US invasion, NEVER going to be a Cuban uprising... NEVER going to be a switch to Guerilla Warfare getting these men 60 miles into the hills... Dulles sacrificed these men - I know it's a hard pill to swallow... yet that's what happened.
The PLAN was presented where all these things were guaranteed for a variety of alterior motives... Your desire to maintain FAITH in your unsupported opinions notwithstanding. What's even more amusing is that you fail to understand that even if all of Castro's air powere was removed, none of the other elements of the plan could work... PLANNED FAILURE at every step.
Should you continue to want to play with yourself on this thread, so be it... It is on threads like this that I miss Charles and his no nonsense approach. I hope I am channeling even the smallest part of his passion to expose your type of discussion here.
Credibility is what you make it Scott... if you think this thread helps yours, ::
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You're a funny guy, but... You still don't get it, lets try and cut this short before you write a book on this thread, the plan failed, but the "design" was NEVER meant too! Don't expect you to understand it though.
Quote:You're a funny guy, but... You still don't get it, lets try and cut this short before you write a book on this thread, the plan failed, but the "design" was NEVER meant too! Don't expect you to understand it though.
Scott, you have made this assertion many times. However, I fail to see you make your case. This is the difficult part, and there is a big difference between the two. When you come against people like DJ and JimDi who do know how to argue a case, you fall short. I hope your book succeeds at least at formulating the argument you have not been able as yet to do here.
"We'll know our disinformation campaign is complete when everything the American public believes is false." --William J. Casey, D.C.I
"We will lead every revolution against us." --Theodore Herzl
The truth and bare facts about the Bay of Pigs
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