Malaysian plane crashes on Ukraine-Russia border - live

[Paul Rigby]

Part 1: http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85088

Part 2:http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85089

Part 3: http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85090

Part 4: http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85091

[Magda Hassan]

But it was a mistake. Interesting. The original position was based on evidence -- such as it was -- now the new position is nothing but an assertion.

ZeroHedge: Which leaves us with one question - What happened between The White House and Putin (and perhaps Merkel) that ended with this lowering the tone of the debate?

Yes it is decidedly much more muted this morning with words like 'perhaps' 'maybe' 'likely' and 'accident'. Much more doubtful and diffident. The US obviously have nothing because if it showed the DPR definitively doing it we would be seeing it all over the tv. Instead we've only ever had big mouth shooting off with no picture and no evidence. Note how that discredited video with the wrong time stamp is no longer used? And they haven't tried to discredit the Russian evidence from their press conference.

[Magda Hassan]

Troublemaking Washington: Pushing Ukraine to the Brink

by MIKE WHITNEY

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/09/p...-the-brink

So all Putin has to do is sit tight and he wins, mainly because the EU needs Moscow's gas. If energy supplies are terminated or drastically reduced, prices will rise, the EU will slide back into recession, and Washington will take the blame. So Washington has a very small window to draw Putin into the fray, which is why we should expect another false flag incident on a much larger scale than the fire in Odessa. Washington is going to have to do something really big and make it look like it was Moscow's doing. Otherwise, their pivot plan is going to hit a brick wall.

The date of publication? 9 July 2014.

Great article...can't believe I've never heard of this guy before.

I posted this back on page 2, guys.

::pullhairout:: ::facepalm:: Don't you just hate that?

[Peter Lemkin]

Best set of photos of crash area and debris, by professional photographer here.
Pretty clear it was fragmentation warhead with proximity fuse that brought down the plane.
US seems to be backpeddling and trying to cover their asses. The whole notion of innocent until proven guilty has been long gone - within the USA, and with events outside. The propaganda advantage is more important. It was a pretty ugly response by many. The new PM of Oz was one of the worst....but he has many vying for second place.

[Lauren Johnson]

The whole notion of innocent until proven guilty has been long gone - within the USA, and with events outside.

Isn't this called "fixing the intelligence around the policy"?

Only the Bush Neocons would do that right? Not Barack Obama.

[David Guyatt]

But it was a mistake. Interesting. The original position was based on evidence -- such as it was -- now the new position is nothing but an assertion.

ZeroHedge: Which leaves us with one question - What happened between The White House and Putin (and perhaps Merkel) that ended with this lowering the tone of the debate?

An interesting development.

The UKUSA bombast is toning down while pointing fingers start reversing themselves - and Hollande opens fire on Cameron:

Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash: Massive rise in sale of British arms to Russia






MPs condemn sharp increase in trade with Moscow after missile attack on Flight MH17, while French President blasts 'hypocrite' Cameron as war of words erupts between London and Paris

CAHAL MILMO

Wednesday 23 July 2014

The Government was last night accused of double standards over arms sales to Russia after it emerged that officials have approved a massive increase in weaponry to be sold to the country to more than £130m.

MPs warn today that at least 251 export licences for the sale of controlled goods - ranging from sniper rifles to night sights - remain in place despite a call from Prime Minister David Cameron for other countries, in particular France, to halt lucrative arms deals with Moscow.
Downing Street insisted that any arms licences granted for equipment to the Russian military had been suspended in the wake of the MH17 disaster after Mr Cameron singled out French President Francois Hollande's refusal to call off a £1bn deal to sell Moscow two helicopter carriers.
The increasingly acrimonious war of words between London and Paris over sales of military hardware to Moscow deepened last night when the head of Mr Hollande's Socialist ruling party called Mr Cameron a "hypocrite".
VIDEO: THE AFTERMATH OF MH17 CRASH

READ MORE: PRO-RUSSIAN REBEL ADMITS TO SHOOTING DOWN PLANE'
US CLAIMS RUSSIA 'CREATED THE CONDITIONS' THAT LED TO THE DOWNING OF FLIGHT MH17
AIDS CONFERENCE DELEGATES VOW TO HONOUR MH17 VICTIMS
COMMENT: THE WEST IS TOO LOCKED IN TO RUSSIA TO CAUSE IT PAIN. BUT IT INFLICTS A LOT OF PAIN ON ITSELF

A powerful select committee of MPs added to Downing Street discomfort over the issue by today calling on the Government to show "more cautious judgment" when approving exports to Russia after the value of licences rocketed by more than half in the last year from £86m to £131.5m.
The increase of 52 per cent in the last 12 months took place despite Britain's increasingly strident criticism of Russian support - including the supply of arms - for Ukrainian separatists, who have now been blamed for the killing of 298 people on board flight MH17.
In pictures: Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash
As the European Union last night announced it was considering targeting defence sales as part of widened sanctions against Moscow, Labour claimed the Conservative Party had also accepted donations worth more than £900,00 since 2007 from Russians with alleged links to the Russian government.
The exhaustive report by MPs on sales to 28 countries deemed by the Government to be "of human rights concern" found that Britain last year issued 285 separate licences for the sale of weaponry and controlled goods to Russia, including £1.6m of small arms ammunition, 38 sniper rifles, components for assault rifles and combat shotguns, and cryptography equipment worth £74m.
A five-year licence was also granted last year by Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) for the shipping of multiple military components, including missile components and launching technology, to Russian territory.
Officials in Business Secretary Vince Cable's department last night insisted the licence applied to a contingency agreement to supply emergency spare parts to the Brazilian navy in 23 countries, including Russia, and no missile parts had been sent to Russia under the deal.
But MPs questioned whether there were enough checks in place to ensure that a long list of arms and weaponry approved for export to Russia reached its declared end user and said Britain needed to be significantly more circumspect about what it agreed to sell to authoritarian countries.
Sir John Stanley, chairman of the House of Commons Committees on Arms Export Controls (CAEC), said: "Our view is that there should be a more cautious approach. We have been appealing for a more considered approach to Russia for some time. I think many people would be wondering why the UK is giving export approval to the considerable number of items on that list?"
The senior Conservative MP said last night he would be writing to Mr Cameron for clarification on which further weaponry exports to Russia have now been banned amid criticism from anti-arms trade campaigners that Britain was only taking action because of the international outcry over the Malaysia Airlines atrocity.
Andrew Smith, from the Campaign Against Arms Trade, said: "All too often it takes a humanitarian catastrophe before the UK Government practices arms control. We welcome tighter regulation of the arms trade, but when the UK's target markets include oppressive Governments, it doesn't just give them military support, it also indicates political support."
Former Foreign Secretary William Hague announced in March that it was suspending all licences existing licences and applications of military and dual-use equipment to Russia where it was or could be used against Ukraine.
Former Foreign Secretary William Hague (Getty Images)
Sir John said this had resulted in the suspension of the "relatively small number" of just 34 of the 285 approved sales to Russia. The Government last night insisted that the "majority" of remaining export licences for Russia applied to items for "for commercial use".
The annual report by the MPs, based on joint meetings of four separate Commons' select committees, also accused Mr Cable of quietly dropping a longstanding plank of Britain's arms export policy to make sales to oppressive regimes such as Russia easier.
The report found that the Government last year approved sales worth £11.9bn to 28 countries designated by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) as being "of human rights concern", including £1.7bn each to Saudi Arabia and China. Sales to Israel, also named on the FCO list, were dominated by a single deal - worth £7.8bn - of cryptographic equipment and software to an unnamed customer in the country.
Since 2000, arms sales had been considered alongside criteria which states: "An export licence will not be issued if the arguments for doing so are outweighed by concern that the goods might be used for internal repression or international aggression".
Nightvision goggles on display at the DSEI arms fair in London last year (Getty)
Despite being omitted from stated Government criteria, BIS officials last night insisted the move did constitute a change of policy and safeguards remains in place.
But the MPs strongly criticised the move. Sir John said: "We don't accept that there has been no change of policy. This is very important policy wording and it has been dropped."
The MPs were also strongly critical of the current Government and its Labour predecessor for approving the sale of chemical weapon precursors to Syria despite the knowledge that the country's regime was developing a nerve gas stockpile.
The report described the decision under Labour to grant five export licences for "dual-use" nerve gas ingredients between 2004 and 2010 as "highly questionable" and said the decision by the Coalition to grant to further licences in 2012 - after the civil war had started - as "irresponsible".
A Government spokesperson said: "The UK aims to operate one of the most robust and transparent export control systems in the world. Every application is examined rigorously against internationally recognised criteria and particular attention is paid to human rights risks."
Eastern promise: The Tories' Russian donors
Alexander Temerko
A former vice-president of oil giant Yukos, Mr Temerko fled Russia and received UK citizenship after being charged with fraud. He is a director of Offshore Group Newcastle, who specialise in offshore wind, and gas and oil platforms. He has personally donated around £259,230 to the Conservative Party since 2012. OGN has also donated £185,325 to the Tories.
Lubov and Vladimir Chernukhin
Lubov Chernukhin paid £160,000 at the most recent Tory summer ball for a game of tennis with David Cameron. She is married to Vladimir Chernukhin, former deputy finance minister of Russia. Mr Chenhukhin is also a former director of Aeroflot, JCS Russian Agricultural Bank, Vnesheconombank, and Polyus Gold International Limited until April 2014.
New Century Media
Had a table at the Tory summer ball and have donated £91,000 to the Conservatives. The lobbying company has worked with organisations such as "Positive Russia" which seeks to portray Vladimir Putin and Russia in a positive light, and invited Mr Putin's judo partner Vasily Shestakov and billionaire Andrei Klyamko to the ball.

[Magda Hassan]

Kiev Censors MH17 Air Traffic Control Recordings

[video=youtube_share;ND-4RgakhJw]http://youtu.be/ND-4RgakhJw[/video]

The strange case of Carlos the Spanish air controller

http://iouco.tumblr.com/post/92543598069...controller

Picture of Carlos published by the Vietnamese site "Vietnam Plus" http://www.vietnamplus.vn/chuyen-vien-kh...271658.vnp

(Note: this is a work in progress. My intention is to know who is Carlos. Where is he? Why he has disappeared?) I am a citizen from Barcelona who is living in Lithuania. I am using a nick-name but I am not an avatar or a fake profile. I have not any connection with Russian secret services or with Russia. I am not member of any organization, political party or agency. I try to be honest when I write about the Ukrainian conflict. I have to admit that sometimes I am biased since I have been always a moderately left-wing person. There are millions of citizens in Catalonia or Spain that are also left-wing like me. This is why since the beginning I have been active against maidan. When I saw the people that were involved in that movement (the neo-nazis of "Pravy Sektor" and fascists of "Svoboda") I immediatly thought that I had to do something to fight against them. Sorry for my English that is far from perfect)

Some thoughts and information about Carlos, the Spanish aircontroller who said that was working in Borispol airport (Kiev) when the Malaysian Boeing was shot down (according to him the Boeing was shot down by jets following instructions of Kiev Junta)

Carlos gave an interview to RT en Español (May 8th 2014). Check the link below. I am following him in twitter since march 2014.One of my friends is following him since January 2014. He said that he was traffic air controller in Ukraine BEFORE the Malaysian plane tragedy happened. The account of Carlos was created in 2010. Before Maidan he posted a lot of stuff there (I read many of his posts with my own eyes….tweets about his life, travels, football, bullshitting etc….anything about politics). On friday 18th at 7 pm (Lithuanian time) I was at home watching BBC World News and it appeared a flash with the breaking news, a Boeing of Malaysia Airlines crashed somewhere near the Russian border in the Donbass region.

I went to twitter around 7.30 pm (Lithuanian time) and I saw the tweets of Carlos. I copied many of them. He was tweeting for around 2 hours. I was copying his tweets and pasted them in a note in facebook respecting his ortography and the way he wrote them (check below). Later at mid-night I tried to connect again and the account was deleted. And he "disappeared" misteriously.

Who is Carlos? I have analyzed the interview given to RT en Español. He has not foreign accent… I mean he is for sure a Spanish citizen probably from the region of Madrid, Castilla or North of Spain (he deffinetively is not from South America or from the region of Andalucia). Where is he now? The amazing thing of Carlos is that he could not know that the Malaysian plane crashed before 7 pm since BBC World News didn't say anything about the crash till 7 pm (Lithuanian time). And when I went to his twitter account he already had posted a lot of tweets. If he was not in Borispol aircontrol tower (and he was lying) how he was able to tweet about the Malaysian airplane crash before the news were broadcasted by the mass-media? How he could do that? Some people have been doing "investigation" about Carlos. Some magazines and sites like "Global Research" said that they discovered (by the IP) he was tweeting from London. Other Spanish magazine told that they sent a message to Carlos and he answered with a IP from Romania. I think any of them know anything about where he was tweeting from. The fact that the Spanish Embassy in Kiev didn't know anything about "Carlos" does not prove anything. Myself I have been living in Lithuania for 8 years and the Embassy only knew about me 3 years ago when I was forced to renovate my passport. The Spanish law does not force the Spanish citizens to register in the Embassies or Consulates. This is an option that can be useful for voting or bureaucratic stuff but is not required by the Spanish authorities. The Ukrainian "authorities" (it means maidan regime) said that according to the Ukrainian law (which law? in Ukraine does not exist such a thing) a foreigner can not work as air traffic controller. But of course what are they going to tell? Also they are telling us that the airplane was shot down by the " pro-russians terrorists" and we know that this is not true.

I don't find any rational explanation for Carlos and his tweets. Maybe he is just a crazy man with the incredible talent of tweeting about the events at the same time the events were happening (how he managed to tweet furiously about the Malaysian plane at the same time the events were happening if he was in London, Romania or Spain?). Where is Carlos now? If he is alive why he is hidding? I reproduce here the note that I posted on 18/07/2014.
.....

Who ever Carlos is his Tweets have more credence than any thing coming out the State Department. He was tweeting live close to the time that the crash happened and before it was in the MSM. He talked about Ukrainian jets flying next to MH17 and this is supported by Russian radar evidence. Ukraine authorities, who ever they may be today, have not produced any of their air traffic control tape recordings or radar videos. Maybe confiscated as said by Carlos? There is clearly major division in the country, barely functioning as an entity, when the main military don't know what is happening in the Dept of Interior militia. Also his talks of a possible Timoshchenko coup against Porshenko which he talked of days before the plane crash would also explain one section not knowing what the other was doing or where the order is coming from. None of the cricisms of him I have seen stand up either.

[David Guyatt]

From BoilingFrogsPost:

Guilt by Insinuation

DR PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS | JULY 22, 2014LEAVE A COMMENT
Let's keep open minds and resist Washington's propaganda until facts & evidence are in.Why hasn't Washington joined Russian President Putin in calling for an objective, non-politicized international investigation by experts of the case of the Malaysian jetliner?
The Russian government continues to release facts, including satellite photos showing the presence of Ukrainian Buk anti-aircraft missiles in locations from which the airliner could have been brought down by the missile system and documentation that a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet rapidly approached the Malaysian airliner prior to its downing. The head of the Operations Directorate of Russian military headquarters said at a Moscow press conference today (July 21) that the presence of the Ukrainian military jet is confirmed by the Rostov monitoring center.
The Russian Defense Ministry pointed out that at the moment of destruction of MH-17 an American satellite was flying over the area. The Russian government urges Washington to make available the photos and data captured by the satellite.
President Putin has repeatedly stressed that the investigation of MH-17 requires "a fully representative group of experts to be working at the site under the guidance of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO)." Putin's call for an independent expert examination by ICAO does not sound like a person with anything to hide.
Turning to Washington Putin stated: "In the meantime, no one [not even the "exceptional nation"] has the right to use this tragedy to achieve their narrowly selfish political goals."
Putin reminded Washington: "We repeatedly called upon all conflicting sides to stop the bloodshed immediately and to sit down at the negotiating table. I can say with confidence that if military operations were not resumed [by Kiev] on June 28 in eastern Ukraine, this tragedy wouldn't have happened."
What is the American response?
Lies and insinuations.
Yesterday (July 20) the US Secretary of State, John Kerry confirmed that pro-Russian separatists were involved in the downing of the Malaysian airliner and said that it was "pretty clear" that Russia was involved. Here are Kerry's words: "It's pretty clear that this is a system that was transferred from Russia into the hands of separatists. We know with confidence, with confidence, that the Ukrainians did not have such a system anywhere near the vicinity at that point and time, so it obviously points a very clear finger at the separatists."
Kerry's statement is just another of the endless lies told by US secretaries of state in the 21st century. Who can forget Colin Powell's package of lies delivered to the UN about Saddam Hussein's "weapons of mass destruction" or Kerry's lie repeated endlessly that Assad "used chemical weapons against his own people" or the endless lies about "Iranian nukes"?
Remember that Kerry on a number of occasions stated that the US had proof that Assad crossed the "red line" by using chemical weapons. However, Kerry was never able to back up his statements with evidence. The US had no evidence to give the British prime minister whose effort to have Parliament approve Britain's participation with Washington in a military attack on Syria was voted down. Parliament told the prime minister, "no evidence, no war."
Again here is Kerry declaring "confidence" in statements that are directly contradicted by the Russian satellite photos and endless eye witnesses on the ground.
Why doesn't Washington release its photos from its satellite?
The answer is for the same reason that Washington will not release all the videos it confiscated and that it claims prove that a hijacked 9/11 airliner hit the Pentagon. The videos do not support Washington's claim, and the US satellite photos do not support Kerry's claim.
The UN weapons inspectors on the ground in Iraq reported that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction. However, the fact did not support Washington's propaganda and was ignored. Washington started a highly destructive war based on nothing but Washington's intentional lie.
The International Atomic Energy Commission's inspectors on the ground in Iran and all 16 US intelligence agencies reported that Iran had no nuclear weapons program. However, the fact was inconsistent with Washington's agenda and was ignored by both the US government and the presstitute media.
We are witnessing the same thing right now with the assertions in the absence of evidence that Russia is responsible for the downing of the Malaysian airliner.
Not every member of the US government is as reckless as Kerry and John McCain. In place of direct lies, many US officials use insinuations.
US Senator Diane Feinstein is the perfect example. Interviewed on the presstitute TV station CNN, Feinstein said: "The issue is where is Putin? I would say, Putin, you have to man up. You should talk to the world. You should say, if this is a mistake, which I hope it was, say it.'"
Putin has been talking to the world nonstop calling for an expert non-politicized investigation, and Feinstein is asking Putin why he is hiding behind silence. We know you did it, Feinstein insinuates, so just tell us whether you meant to or whether it was an accident.
The way the entire Western news cycle was orchestrated with blame instantly being placed on Russia long in advance of real information suggests that the downing of the airliner was a Washington operation. It is, of course, possible that the well-trained presstitute media needed no orchestration from Washington in order to lay the blame on Russia. On the other hand, some of the news performances seem too scripted not to have been prepared in advance.
We also have the advanced preparation of the youtube video that purports to show a Russian general and Ukrainian separatists discussing having mistakenly downed a civilian airliner. As I pointed out earlier, this video is twice damned. It was ready in advance and by implicating the Russian military, it overlooked that the Russian military can tell the difference between a civilian airliner and a military airplane. The existence of the video itself implies that there was a plot to down the airliner and blame Russia.
I have seen reports that the Russian anti-aircraft missile system, as a safety device, is capable of contacting aircraft transponders in order to verify the type of aircraft. If the reports are correct and if the transponders from MH-17 are found, they might record the contact.
I have seen reports that Ukrainian air control changed the route of MH-17 and directed it to fly over the conflict area. The transponders should also indicate whether this is correct. If so, there clearly is at least circumstantial evidence that this was an intentional act on the part of Kiev, an act which would have required Washington's blessing.
There are other reports that there is a divergence between the Ukrainian military and the unofficial militias formed by the right-wing Ukrainian extremists who apparently were the first to attack the separatists. It is possible that Washington used the extremists to plot the airliner's destruction in order to blame Russia and use the accusations to pressure the EU to go along with Washington's unilateral sanctions against Russia. We do know that Washington is desperate to break up the growing economic and political ties between Russia and Europe.
If it was a plot to down an airliner, any safety device on the missile system could have been turned off so as to give no warning or leave any telltale sign. That could be the reason a Ukrainian fighter was sent to inspect the airliner. Possibly the real target was Putin's airliner and incompetence in implementing the plot resulted in the destruction of a civilian airliner.
As there are a number of possible explanations, let's keep open minds and resist Washington's propaganda until facts and evidence are in. In the very least Washington is guilty of using the incident to blame Russia in advance of the evidence. All Washington has shown us so far are accusations and insinuations. If that is all Washington continues to show us, we will know where the blame resides.
In the meantime, remember the story of the boy who cried "wolf!" He lied so many times that when the wolf did come, no one believed him. Will this be Washington's ultimate fate?
Instead of declaring war on Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, and Syria, why did Washington hide behind lies? If Washington wants war with Iran, Russia, and China, why not simply declare war? The reason that the US Constitution requires war to begin with a declaration of war by Congress is to prevent the executive branch from orchestrating wars in order to further hidden agendas. By abdicating its constitutional responsibility, the US Congress is complicit in the executive branch's war crimes. By approving Israel's premeditated murder of Palestinians, the US government is complicit in Israel's war crimes.
Ask yourself this question: Would the world be a safer place with less death, destruction and displaced peoples and more truth and justice if the United States and Israel did not exist?

- See more at: http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2014/07/...P4849.dpuf

[Albert Doyle]

Pretty clear it was fragmentation warhead with proximity fuse that brought down the plane.

No, I'd say it was a center fuel tank explosion.

[Lauren Johnson]

Pretty clear it was fragmentation warhead with proximity fuse that brought down the plane.

Peter, what is this supposed to mean -- air to air missile vs. ground to air?