Quote:Pretty clear it was fragmentation warhead with proximity fuse that brought down the plane.
Peter, what is this supposed to mean -- air to air missile vs. ground to air?
Either. They work the exact same way. Only knowing the minute details might one be able to determine which - but likely not from the shrapnel holes in the fuselage.
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn
"If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and never will" - Frederick Douglass
Peter Lemkin Wrote:Best set of photos of crash area and debris, by professional photographer here.
While Kallstrom and FBI asked if the wreckage of TWA 800 looked like wreckage of a missile impact it is amazing how similar the wreckage in these photos looks like that of Flight 800 (minus the evidence of missile damage they illegally removed).
"There are three sorts of conspiracy: by the people who complain, by the people who write, by the people who take action. There is nothing to fear from the first group, the two others are more dangerous; but the police have to be part of all three,"
Most have discounted the possibility of an air to air missile taking down MH17 as the recent Russian MOD briefing suggested as a possible scenario. Up to now, I've also considered this as the least likely explanation. All eyes are on the BUK. But is this a case of sleight of hand, a misdirection? Perhaps.Let's take a closer look at the air to air missile theory. The most probable missile that would have been used is the R-60. The NATO designation is AA-8 Aphid. The R-60 weights only 44 kg (100 lbs) and can be launched from a wide range of high performance jets, including the SU-25. Even the HIND attack helicopter can use it. It's warhead uses either a 3 or 3.5 kg high explosive charge surrounded by a tungsten expanding rod. Some versions have an additional 1.6 kg of depleted uranium for increased lethality. It uses a proximity fuze. That is an important point.
Some analysis of damage found on part of MH17 suggest a proximity explosion slightly below and ahead of the planes port wing. NBC News use this information to confirm that it was an SA-11 missile because an infrared guided air to air missile would have hit an engine. I always thought that would be the case since my experience was with the Redeye which tracks the aircraft's hot exhaust and detonates on impact, usually up a jet engine's ass end. The NBC News analysts obviously were working with the same limited and dated understanding as I had.
In reality the R-60 and the SA-11 detonate on the same proximity fuze principle. The difference is that the SA-11 has a 70 kg warhead. One commenter on the Saker blog suggested that a 70 kg warhead would have turned MH17 into confetti at 10,000 meters altitude. I doubt he's an expert in missile damage. I know I'm not, but the SA-11 warhead has more explosive power than half a dozen 155mm HE shells. I've been very close to 5 inch naval gun fire. Believe me, the explosive power is mind altering. I have serious doubts an SA-11 blast would leave such big aircraft pieces lying in the fields outside Grabovo.
An R-60 did take down a commercial airliner in 1978. At an altitude of 9,000 meters, KAL902 had 4 meters of its port wingtip sheared off, an engine damaged and shrapnel punctures of the fuselage that killed two passengers by one R-60 hit. It was able to crash land on a frozen lake. Photos of the damage done can be viewed here. The aircraft was a Boeing 707.
My guess is that explosive ordnance experts can easily tell the difference between the damage produced by an SA-11 from that produced by an R-60. That would definitely eliminate at least one theory… and perhaps the West's and Ukraine's pet theory. Where would the information operation go then?
TTG
"We'll know our disinformation campaign is complete when everything the American public believes is false." --William J. Casey, D.C.I
"We will lead every revolution against us." --Theodore Herzl
A fuller version of what happened starts emerging piece by piece. First, as I pointed out earlier, in one his daily battle reports, Strelkov or his associates indicated as if in passing that the Malaysian airliner, Boeing 777, was shot down by Ukrainian jet fighters. Then came the briefing by the Russian Ministry of Defense, which showed a Ukrainian SU-25 within 3-5 km from the Boeing at the very moment when the Boeing was hit. In the next four minutes, the Ukrainian fighter remained in the area. At the moment, when the Boeing was hit, it was also within the range of several Ukrainian Buk batteries, which were deployed close to Donetsk and then, just for that very day, 8km south of Shakhterskoye, which is also only several miles from the crash site.
Today (July 23), Anna-News published an interview with a Russian Air Force retired colonel Aleksand Zhilin (ÐлекÑандр Жилин) who is a frequent military commentator on the conflict in Ukraine. The most important information is stated at 2:00-5:00 in the interview.
According to the colonel, at 16:19:45, a Ukrainian jet fighter targeted the Boeing with an air-to-air missile R-60. The missile damaged the right engine of the Boeing. The Boeing was hit, but still managed to stay in the air. However, in doing so, the Boeing turned 180 degrees to the left. It was at this moment that the false flag attack started falling apart. According to Zhilin, part of the plan controlled by the US with Ukrainian hands executing it was to have the Boeing crash past the southern frontline by the Ukrainian-Russian border. Had the Boeing fallen there, securing the crash sites with the troops in response to international pressure was on top of all else effectively allow Kiev to lift the encirclement of its brigades in the southern pocket by the Russian border.
When, however, the Boeing started to turn in the opposite direction and was still apparently manageable, "the US-Ukrainian headquarters of the special operation panicked and order the Buk battery to destroy the plane in the air in order to pre-empt the possibility of the Boeing's emergency landing." A Buk missile was fired and the plane was then finally destroyed.
The disclosure of the Russian electronic intelligence (in fact, only one part of it) on July 21 put the US against the wall. The existence of this intelligence and other data also means that the US cannot show the real intelligence, which they also have, including the data from their electronic warfare exercise SEA BREEZE 2014 and the data from their spy satellite, which just happened to be over the area during the downing of the Malasysian Boeing.
The other relevant information, which the Russian colonel revealed, was that the Malaysian Boeing was insured for $97 million against damages or losses as a result of military actions.
"There are three sorts of conspiracy: by the people who complain, by the people who write, by the people who take action. There is nothing to fear from the first group, the two others are more dangerous; but the police have to be part of all three,"
Quote:Zhilin's analysis based in part on investigation of Nikolai Istomin (http://nikolay-istomin.livejournal.com/3057934.html) reveals one singularly shattering fact, which Kiev, the US, NATO, and corporate media kept under the wraps. A more detailed and careful analysis of the flight path of MH17 does, indeed, confirm that LH17 reached Snezhnoye at 16:19 local time still whole, complete, and in good health, so to speak. But the crash site is in Grabovo, which is almost 20 km (25km by road) NORTH of Snezhnoye. That, indeed, means that the plane 1) flew then backwards and that 2) its crash site ended up well behind the furthest southern point, which the plane reached.
This completely disapproves the US (US State Department) creative "drawing" of the supposed NAF BUK missile hitting the plane head on from Snezhnoye. This U-turn then also helps explain why Kiev's first fake "leaked conversation of the rebels" tried to place the "rebels's Buk battery" in Debaltzevo, which is just straight ahead from Grabovo--further north. However, that would not explain the U-turn, which they tried so much to conceal, for it points to the Ukrainian jet fighter.
The second "leaked" tape tried to place the "rebels' Buk battery" to Donetsk, for the first attempt was too much at odds with the timing of the (first) impact. The missile would have to pass the plane, then turned around and hit it from behind ... The quickly produced "Donetsk" fake tacit correction was supposed to address these inconsistencies, which were expected to arise. But the crash site in Grabovo, north of the acknowledged fight path and hence also further from the range of a battery put into Donetsk did not resolve well all the remaining discrepancies, not to mention the fact cunningly or just sloppily overlooked by the White House and the Western media, that already these two tapes were not only mutually exclusive, but also mutually refuting each other.
So, just several hours after the second tape, Kiev came up with a video, most likely showing the very Ukrainian Buk battery, which was actually shooting 8 km south of Shakhtyorsk against the Boeing. Kiev, however, claimed that it was the rebels' Buk battery. Alas, the billboard on the left side of the short video shot from behind a bush, made it clear that the video was made in early morning hours on July 18 in Krasnoarmeysk controlled by the junta since May 11.
This video and further fake US "intelligence" thus started to assert that the rebels shot at the plane from Snezhnoye. This, however, required either to lie about the location of Grabovo, which, indeed, some Western media then put south of Snezhnoye, or to move the point when the (first) missile struck back northward. This still, however, could not explain why the crash site was east of the route, and it also presupposed that the plane would have been hit the Buk missile head-on.
To keep this story flying required revealing as little facts and topographic data (or a map of the crash site) as possible, which, for, the Western media, has never been a problem.
As a result, the one crucial fact revealed by Zhilin is that the rear of the plane and the main crash site is in Grabovo, some 20km east and north of Snezhnoye, which the plane actually passed, and, on top of it, that the pilots' cabin is even more north (and more to the west) than the rest of the plane. The pilots' cabin crashed in the village of Rozsypne/Rassypnoye, which is few kilometers north and west of the main crash site of the plane, as can be glanced from the maps of Zhilin and Istomin and this map of the area (the village of Rozsypne/Rassypnoye is well marked):
This location of the pilots' cabin and the main body of the plane clearly shows in which direction and from which direction the plane was falling to the ground--the very opposite to what we were led to believe.
"There are three sorts of conspiracy: by the people who complain, by the people who write, by the people who take action. There is nothing to fear from the first group, the two others are more dangerous; but the police have to be part of all three,"
Published: July 24, 2014 g.Inostranny weather satellite fixed point of the complex "Beech" in the infrared. APU shoot with territories controlled Kolomoisky:
Quote:If it is both genuine and correct, then it should fit with the imagery of the Ukrainian battery deployment 8km south of Shakhteryosk (8-11:00 of the briefing video from Moscow).
"There are three sorts of conspiracy: by the people who complain, by the people who write, by the people who take action. There is nothing to fear from the first group, the two others are more dangerous; but the police have to be part of all three,"
It makes the map/diagram touted as the US intelligence analysis of the event looks like something out of a kiddies colouring book - not much of an improvement on this in fact:
If the Vladimir Suchan interpretation of the A2A - U-turn - SAM is correct then it should be clearly confirmed by the flight data recorder. He suggests that the pilots managed to maintain some sort of control following the first strike too. If so the voice recorder will also contain damning evidence for the Ukie Junta (as was - since it has now resigned).
The US will also have military radar and satellite evidence at least the equal of Russia's. Their failure to produce anything substantially better than the above, together with the Junta failure to produce the ATC-Pilot exchanges is looks damning to me right now.
Peter Presland
".....there is something far worse than Nazism, and that is the hubris of the Anglo-American fraternities, whose routine is to incite indigenous monsters to war, and steer the pandemonium to further their imperial aims" Guido Preparata. Preface to 'Conjuring Hitler'[size=12][size=12] "Never believe anything until it has been officially denied" Claud Cockburn
Paul Rigby Wrote:Published: July 24, 2014 g.Inostranny weather satellite fixed point of the complex "Beech" in the infrared. APU shoot with territories controlled Kolomoisky:
Quote:If it is both genuine and correct, then it should fit with the imagery of the Ukrainian battery deployment 8km south of Shakhteryosk (8-11:00 of the briefing video from Moscow).
Elsewhere, but doubtless in the certain knowledge that the US-orchestrators of this false-flag will be watching, we find this chap put in the frame:
Right hand Kolomoisky battalion commander "Dnepr" Yuri Birch can be involved in the crash Boeing
Quote:Novoross. info" - In the version about the involvement of the Governor of Dnepropetrovsk region, Jewish oligarch Ihor Kolomoisky, the sponsor of the Ukrainian neo-Nazis and Germans, to the crash Boeing in the East of Ukraine nominated by the Vice-speaker of the state Duma Sergey Neverov, have appeared unexpected turn.
One of the companions of the oligarch Kolomoisky and, concurrently, the head of punitive battalion of the Dnipro Yuri Birch is a professional santcikon. Strange coincidence, considering the fact that his boss Kolomoisky was able to order the managers of changing the policy of the Malaysian "Boeing".
Yuri Bereza was born in 1970 in Ukraine, but the service began in the far East. However, in 1991, after Declaration of independence of Ukraine, Birch began to file reports on the transfer to their homeland. In 1992, he continued his military service in the ranks of the Ukrainian armed forces as commander of a platoon. In 1997 he became Deputy commander of the military unit. Military service he left in 2003, with the rank of major. He retired in commercial activities. Known for his extreme nationalist beliefs.
From April 2014 is headed by the special division of nazvanie "Dnepr-1". During the war in the South-East of Ukraine at the hands of his subordinates were killed dozens of people - not only militiamen, but also civilians.
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"There are three sorts of conspiracy: by the people who complain, by the people who write, by the people who take action. There is nothing to fear from the first group, the two others are more dangerous; but the police have to be part of all three,"
A fuller version of what happened starts emerging piece by piece. First, as I pointed out earlier, in one his daily battle reports, Strelkov or his associates indicated as if in passing that the Malaysian airliner, Boeing 777, was shot down by Ukrainian jet fighters. Then came the briefing by the Russian Ministry of Defense, which showed a Ukrainian SU-25 within 3-5 km from the Boeing at the very moment when the Boeing was hit. In the next four minutes, the Ukrainian fighter remained in the area. At the moment, when the Boeing was hit, it was also within the range of several Ukrainian Buk batteries, which were deployed close to Donetsk and then, just for that very day, 8km south of Shakhterskoye, which is also only several miles from the crash site.
Today (July 23), Anna-News published an interview with a Russian Air Force retired colonel Aleksand Zhilin (ÐлекÑандр Жилин) who is a frequent military commentator on the conflict in Ukraine. The most important information is stated at 2:00-5:00 in the interview.
According to the colonel, at 16:19:45, a Ukrainian jet fighter targeted the Boeing with an air-to-air missile R-60. The missile damaged the right engine of the Boeing. The Boeing was hit, but still managed to stay in the air. However, in doing so, the Boeing turned 180 degrees to the left. It was at this moment that the false flag attack started falling apart. According to Zhilin, part of the plan controlled by the US with Ukrainian hands executing it was to have the Boeing crash past the southern frontline by the Ukrainian-Russian border. Had the Boeing fallen there, securing the crash sites with the troops in response to international pressure was on top of all else effectively allow Kiev to lift the encirclement of its brigades in the southern pocket by the Russian border.
When, however, the Boeing started to turn in the opposite direction and was still apparently manageable, "the US-Ukrainian headquarters of the special operation panicked and order the Buk battery to destroy the plane in the air in order to pre-empt the possibility of the Boeing's emergency landing." A Buk missile was fired and the plane was then finally destroyed.
The disclosure of the Russian electronic intelligence (in fact, only one part of it) on July 21 put the US against the wall. The existence of this intelligence and other data also means that the US cannot show the real intelligence, which they also have, including the data from their electronic warfare exercise SEA BREEZE 2014 and the data from their spy satellite, which just happened to be over the area during the downing of the Malasysian Boeing.
The other relevant information, which the Russian colonel revealed, was that the Malaysian Boeing was insured for $97 million against damages or losses as a result of military actions.
Quote:MN17 board deliberately undermining led to the place, which was selected on the border with the Russian Federation, on a locked in "southern pot" Ukrainian armored group. If successful raid of the plane were to fall or to the territory of the border or in part with Ukrainian and partly from Russian territory. In this case, for the whole territory of the investigation at the request of the international community overlapped Ukrainian army that would cut reliably militias from Russia.
Moreover assumed that the board will be destroyed after the MN17 formal transfer it from the Ukrainian center management and flight safety in Russia that would remove from Ukraine all responsibility for flying in the danger zone.
To this end, the sky was raised fighter, which was supposed to pinpoint accuracy in time and distance from the Russian border to carry out a special operation. At the same time, to ensure the legend of guilt pro-Russian militias in advance to control their border has been put forward and deployed in combat position Division 3 135 anti-aircraft missile regiment of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.
17:19:45 In a fighter were launched missile R-60.
B this point board MN17 walked, obeying the commands Manager at an altitude of 10 000 meters at a speed of 900 km / h, breaking for every minute flight distance 15 kilometrov.Do border with Russia 1.5 minutes of flight.
17:20 missiles were eroded from the right MN17 board near the engine. From the action of the shock wave was a sharp lurch to the left side, this has led to a sharp reversal in the opposite side of the course and speed of the fall. Automatic piloting submitting gyrocompass alignment produced aircraft. Airframe was not destroyed, preserving the integrity of the wings and tail structure. Not less than two and a half minutes the plane flew into the territory of Ukraine. There was a risk that it will be able to leave the area of the ATU and the command was given to his assured destruction SAM missile complex "BUK". What happened in the district Hrabovo. This explains the location of parts of the aircraft, where the tail near Hrabovo and cockpit in skirmishing.
main problem on which the American side provides space photographic images most likely related to the time the missile launch SAM "Buk", which was given after the loss of communication with the MOB MN17. coordinates and details of the aircraft are well set http://nikolay-istomin.livejournal.c om/3057934.html Oh, and ... Judging by the disappearance of the Dnepropetrovsk Manager and devil-may-care attitude of the punitive powers to order Poroshenko ceasefire - Ukraine has no single center crackdown militia East. quite possible that the special operation was conducted and the person behind Poroshenko. PS God Himself keeps Russia, miraculously turning everything sinister plans to harm and destruction of their cynical reviewers. Praise You Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Mother of God!
"There are three sorts of conspiracy: by the people who complain, by the people who write, by the people who take action. There is nothing to fear from the first group, the two others are more dangerous; but the police have to be part of all three,"
