Inexplicable Wounds made by Special Bullets

[Michael Cross]

Weight and balance is mainly for even distribution of the cargo and passengers to create a predictable center of gravity for flight control settings. For smooth flight but mainly for the optimal attitude setting for fuel conservation. The couple of spook wound alterers and shifting of JFK's body to the forward hold would be negligible and well within the tolerance of the 300,000 pound aircraft. It would be no different than passengers and flight attendants walking around in the cabin.

With all due respect, you and I are engaging in the behavior that hinders the research community IMO. I've postulated that a manifest might exist somewhere in the archives that might have information that could shed some light on what happened on Air Force One on 11/22/63. You either disagree, which is fine, or just don't like my thought.

As I said, I spent eighteen long years with United Airlines. I worked and managed all aspects of airport operations. I"m intimately familiar with the modern version of weight and balance, aka load planning, and the pilots would have a list of everything and everyone on the aircraft and their locations on the aircraft regardless of whether it was within the takeoff specs which I'm sure it was. That is my ONLY point - at least in the modern version of flight planning this information would exist, and may have exited then, and could be in a dusty file waiting to see the light of day. Period.

Arguing whether the weight of an extra coffin and mortician changed the takeoff specs and flight settings is NOT my point and is a waste of our collective time.

[Albert Doyle]

No need to get upset, I thought that was what you were arguing. I'd suspect that document, whatever it would show, would be easily hidden within national security confidential information orders. Though I'm not sure what it would show? I'd imagine the spooks would be kept off the record.

[Michael Cross]

No need to get upset, I thought that was what you were arguing. I'd suspect that document, whatever it would show, would be easily hidden within national security confidential information orders. Though I'm not sure what it would show? I'd imagine the spooks would be kept off the record.

Not upset. Just one of those moments within this community that can be frustrating, at least for me.

I agree it could be and likely has been hidden if it even survived. But it also seems like the kind of thing that someone that doesn't understand what they are looking at might miss when documents are being classified. Pure conjecture on my part, I admit.

[Bob Prudhomme]

No need to get upset, I thought that was what you were arguing. I'd suspect that document, whatever it would show, would be easily hidden within national security confidential information orders. Though I'm not sure what it would show? I'd imagine the spooks would be kept off the record.

Not upset. Just one of those moments within this community that can be frustrating, at least for me.

I agree it could be and likely has been hidden if it even survived. But it also seems like the kind of thing that someone that doesn't understand what they are looking at might miss when documents are being classified. Pure conjecture on my part, I admit.

Precisely, Michael. The same applies to medical evidence. This is why the WC side has been able to tell us for years that doctors at PH were placing chest tubes into JFK to relieve a condition known as "subcutaneous emphysema". Not only is this condition non-life threatening, it is not a condition you would attempt to deal with on a pulseless patient, as basic life support would take a much higher precedence. Also, as a doctor friend informs me, chest tubes would not necessarily be the recommended procedure to relieve subcutaneous emphysema.

Plain and simple, JFK was shot in the back with a frangible bullet that entered his right pleural cavity and did not exit. The bullet entered 5.75" below the collar line, at about the level of thoracic vertebra T3, and 1.5-2" to the right of the spinal midline. This bullet entered the top of the right lung, inducing a tension pneumothorax there with, in the words of Dr. Marion Jenkins, "obvious signs of pneumothorax.....", which included JFK's trachea being deviated to the left. Without prompt medical attention, this wound alone could have proven to be fatal.

Chest tubes are regularly inserted, in the ER, into patients with possible respiratory injuries, as assisted ventilation is at a higher pressure than the patient would be able to inhale from atmospheric pressure, and it may be argued the chest tubes were placed into JFK merely as a precaution against a tension pneumothorax that might develop, once assisted ventilation was begun. However, with Dr. Jenkins observing "obvious signs of pneumothorax..." and he and several other doctors observing JFK's trachea deviation to the left, it is quite apparent JFK's tension pneumothorax was present before resuscitation attempts were begun.

[Albert Doyle]

Interesting Bob.


And, yes, by all means expose that flight data manifest. You never know what it might show.

[Michael Cross]

Interesting Bob.


And, yes, by all means expose that flight data manifest. You never know what it might show.

Going to try. Although I suppose saying that here may guarantee it will be unavailable.

[Bob Prudhomme]

Well, I guess it's time to return to the original theme of this thread. As I pointed out way back at the start, each of the wounds suffered by JFK and Connally cannot be explained, from my perspective, by standard types of rifle ammo; be that ammo full metal jacket, soft tipped or hollow point. In my search for a bullet capable of producing all of the strange wounds, the most likely candidate I came across was a lethal form of frangible bullet. A modern version is made by a company called Dynamic Research Technologies, and can be seen at this website:

http://www.drtammo.com/

Here again is a cutaway view of one of their bullets:



What is unique about this bullet is that it does not have a solid lead core inside the jacket. The core is made of a compressed non-lead metal powder that will disintegrate back into metal powder under extreme pressure or impact with anything a normal bullet would ricochet off of (ie. rock, steel, concrete, etc.) The other unique feature is the small hollow point seen in the nose of the bullet. As this bullet travels through fleshy matter, the hollow point fills with fleshy matter, creating an enormous hydraulic pressure within the hollow point cavity. In under 2 inches of transit through flesh, this pressure acts on the compressed metal core, disintegrating it and the jacket into a cloud of metal powder. This cloud of metal powder comes to an immediate halt at this point, transferring all of its energy to surrounding tissue and wreaking utter havoc inside the wound. Outside of a bullet loaded with a small explosive charge, these are likely the most lethal rifle bullets available and, due to the fact the bullet does not exit, likely the safest bullets in terms of collateral damage.

Frangible bullets were made for the 6.5mm Carcano, but they did not possess the hollow point at the nose, and were not intended to be lethal. Rather, they were made for shooting in indoor ranges; taking advantage of the disintegration factor that prevented ricochets. As a refresher, here is a cutaway of the Carcano M.37 frangible bullet:







It is interesting to note that, while these were not hollow point bullets, there was a tiny, shallow opening at the nose of these bullets. The construction of the M.37, inside the copper alloy two-piece jacket, was a solid maillechort (copper, nickel, zinc alloy) pellet inside the nose, followed by a midsection of powdered lead (unable to find if it was compressed or loose), followed by a base filled with sand. The maillechort pellet is very significant, and we will look closely at it when discussing Connally's thigh wound.

Here is another Carcano M.37 frangible bullet, in which a solid lead pellet is used in the tip, instead of maillechort, followed again by powdered lead and sand. Once again, there is a two piece copper alloy jacket.







My research has shown these bullets were made at least as late as 1953, and possibly well into the 1960's. The Italians were still using the Carcano M91/41 match rifles in international competitions, and used these bullets for shooting in indoor ranges. With this kind of application, this speaks volumes to me about the inherent accuracy of an M.37 cartridge.

Comparing the M.37 cutaways to the DRT Ammo bullet cutaway, it does not require a great deal of imagination to see the M.37 with a hollow point drilled into the solid nose pellet, converting it into a crude replica of the DRT Ammo product.

Next: Connally's wrist wound or why didn't the bullet go right through the radius bone?

[David Josephs]

Interesting Bob.


And, yes, by all means expose that flight data manifest. You never know what it might show.

Going to try. Although I suppose saying that here may guarantee it will be unavailable.

The AF-1 tapes and transcripts may prove beneficial to you Michael regarding what little can be found about what happened on that plane.
Bill Kelly has done great work on these tapes...:

At the bottom of this page there are two links that can be played on acomputer MP3. Post JFK Assassination Air Force One FlightDeck Recording

Another, earlier and shorter version that contains some different content canbe found at Mary Ferrell Archives.Audio - Other
http://www.maryferre...p/Audio_-_Other
I had done a transcript of the earlier tape and am trying to combine them here:JFKcountercoup: Air Force One RadioTranscript - Update

While this is still a work in progress, and details have to be filled in, youcan listen to the tape, follow the transcript and use the code key I provide inthe previous blog post to decipher the identities of those doing the talkingand what they are saying.
JFKcountercoup: Air Force One Codes &Passenger List

There are some other posts on my blog that go into the some of the issuesinvolved, particularly the whereabouts of the complete, unedited tape andtranscripts and what's not on the existing tapes but we know should be on themfrom other sources, including:
Excerpts from Raab Collection: The Original White House Version of theKennedy Assassination Air Force One Tape, Not Previously Known toExistHistorical Document and Autograph Dealer The Raab Collection
Boston Globe article andmedia reports: JFKcountercoup: NARA Releases Clifton Copy of AF1 Radio Transmissions
ARRBSearch for original recordings: JFKcountercoup: ARRB Search for AF1 RadioTapesWilliam Manchester's references: JFKcountercoup: "Pentagon taking itsown steps..." - Bundy
Vince Salandria: JFKcountercoup: Tale of the Tapes - ByVincent Salandria
Raab Collection and highlight excerpts: JFKcountercoup: Gen. Clifton's AF1 RadioTransmission Tape
JFK At SAC Command Post: JFKcountercoup: JFK at the SAC Command Post- Offut AFB
Signficance of the AF1 Radio Transmissions: JFKcountercoup: Significance of AF1 RadioTransmissions
Maj. Gen. Clifton: JFKcountercoup: Maj. Gen. Chester V."Ted" Clifton, Jr.
LeMay on 11/22/63: JFKcountercoup: General Curtis LeMay on11/22/63
Andrews Log (Ordered destroyed, rescued from dumpsters): JFKcountercoup: Andrews AFB Log 11/22/63

Bill Kelly
JFKcountercoup



I did find these a while back, just not sure where - (auction sites tend to have these rare items for sale)

[Michael Cross]

Thank you David. Don't want to derail this thread further, but I appreciate it.

[Bob Prudhomme]

Hello everyone

I know I promised to deal with John Connally's wounds by now but, I am delaying things a bit longer. I am re-reading the WC testimony of the doctors who treated JBC's wounds, and discovering things I missed before. It is quite amazing to look at this testimony from a new perspective. If the SBT was dead in the water before, it is doubly dead now.

As the Munchkin coroner sang, "And she is not just merely dead....She's really quite sincerely dead...."

Please bear with me while I attempt to piece all of this together.