JVB vs Scott Kaiser

[Albert Doyle]

To be ignored, imho.

Dawn

I don't go quite that far - even though it seems JVB is begging for it. I still think there's a possibility of some basis of truth to her acquaintance with Oswald in New Orleans. If so then there's credible assassination material there that shouldn't be abandoned on such arbitrary terms. Just saying...

[Albert Doyle]

Seems to me, that Oswald who was looking for a job would been willing to work at the State Hospital which in my opinion suggests humanitarian efforts, not the kind of a profile of an assassin or killer. Just saying.

Oswald was a loyal CIA operative who thought he was defending America against communism and was simply going along with his assignments. He made the mistake of not realizing the wolves at the top would turn on him and use him as a patsy. When faced with this dilemma at the police station he decided to bite the bullet and maintain cover. I have a strong suspicion he was covertly guided at the police station where he was told to say he was denied a lawyer and was a patsy who was arrested because he once went to the Soviet Union. Even if he wasn't told to say that he was a smart enough operator to know to say it himself. After all, his own team would get him out of it, right? An operative who had maintained cover behind the Iron Curtain would most certainly be able to maintain cover at home.

[Dawn Meredith]

To be ignored, imho.

Dawn

I don't go quite that far - even though it seems JVB is begging for it. I still think there's a possibility of some basis of truth to her acquaintance with Oswald in New Orleans. If so then there's credible assassination material there that shouldn't be abandoned on such arbitrary terms. Just saying...

Oh she worked with him, and maybe even knew him but ...over the years her story has just grown and grown. Back in 04 when I first got on the Ed Forum I was a supporter for reasons that I won't post here, but later I began listening more closely. Then when she began to attack John Armstrong, who is a good friend of mine, I began to totally question her true motives. The conclusion that I came to is that she has to make this entire story all about her.

Dawn

[David Josephs]

Agreed Dawn...

What possible reason can there be for her being employed at Reily that summer ?
Did the man she claims to have known have a mastoid scar and gunshot scars on his left arm? The man Ruby killed did not.

This is her "official bio" and contains some interesting tidbits... http://judythvarybaker.blogspot.com/2012...baker.html

By mid-February, 1962, Baker's mother and her aunt, Elsie Vargo, were distressed that Judyth's education was now at a halt. They secretly enrolled her, despite the late date, at The University of Florida after garnering the influence of US Senator George Smathers who arranged a full scholarship for her there. Computer data was also created to account for her late (and technically illegal) arrival.

19-year-old Baker arrived in New Orleans two weeks early due to UF's new trimester system, but to her dismay, both Ochsner and Sherman were out of town. Her fiancé, who only knew that Baker had "plans to work" in New Orleans, was not due to arrive until May, at which time an elopement was planned, but in the meantime, Baker needed emergency funds. Unwilling to ask for help from her parents, she began temporary work at a Royal Castle near the airport. This restaurant was then being used by a government surveillance team to spy on the powerful Mafia leader, Carlos Marcello, whose office behind the Town & Country Motel was just next door. Robert Kennedy had forcibly deported Marcello, who had defiantly returned to the US and was now involved in a deportation court case that he would win on November 22[SUP]nd[/SUP], the same day Kennedy was shot.

George Smathers is one heck of a contact to have at UF.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Smathers
http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKsmathers.htm Smathers took a close interest in the events in Cuba. He supported Alliance for Progress, a government program that spent billions of dollars in an attempt to get pro-American governments in Latin America.
(to support the likes of United Fruit.... etc...)

By April 26, Lee Harvey Oswald had met Baker, who in November would be accused of killing President Kennedy. Researchers believe his meeting with Baker was not accidental. Baker says Oswald concluded she was involved in clandestine operations due to the many people she knew who were linked to the CIA, her employment at that particular Royal Castle, her closeness to Ochsner, her knowledge of Dr. Sherman, and a mix-up of names. By the time Oswald realized the truth, the 23-year-old had already introduced Baker to the clandestine side of Ochsner's cancer research project, exposing Dr. Sherman and her friend David W. Ferrie as among the participants

Baker learned that Oswald was working with former FBI Chicago chief Guy Banister in anti-Castro operations
<snip>

on May 4, 1963 Baker turned to Oswald after she was evicted in the middle of the night due to a police raid from her rented room.

Baker documented how cover jobs were arranged for herself and Oswald, where they spent approximately half their time. Though she was a slow typist, Baker said arrangements were made to hire her as a secretary for former FBI agent William I. Monaghan, Wm. B. Reily Coffe Company's Vice President of Security, Finance and Field Sales. After moving into nearby apartments the same week, Bake[B]r and Oswald rode the same bus to and from work together the next eleven weeks. Bo[/B]th Baker and Oswald began their employment on the same day, at a (then) small subsidiary company, Standard Coffee, owned by Reily, where their background reports were laundered and Baker was taught how to handle the Vice President's secretarial duties. A week later, the two new employees were transferred together to Reily's main company. WC documents support these facts


Sure does seem to me that getting her to NOLA a couple days after Oswald arrives there is very well planned out. And it appears that she is CIA connected all along the route.... Seems BOTH her jobs in NOLA were CIA connected....

On May 4th Harvey Oswald was staying with Lee's aunt Lillian Murret at 757 French Street and had been there a couple days before he finds a place thru Myrtle Evans... 4907 Magazine. Where was JVB from May 5th on?

To recap -
he arrives in NOLA on April 24 (James Wilcott says the Oswald Project begins in April 1963)
he stays with Lee's aunt Lillian Murret and is gone most days until late in the evenings until he gets the job at Reily on May 9 and is asked to start work the next day.
he finds 4907 Magazine and moves in May 10th
he calls Marina at the Paines and invites her to come to NOLA to live
Ruth and Marina show up in the BROWN station wagon on May 11th
Ozzie fills out a postal form to forward mail addressed to him at THE PAINES to 4907 Magazine... except he never lived at the Paines to this point so why would he be getting mail there? (H&L p540)

Do we have any info on the apartment Judyth took to be on the same bus line to Reily at 640 Magazine?
It would seem to me, if the CIA was creating bogus backstories for the employment of JVB at two CIA connected locations, she may have never been at Reily Coffee at all.... no one there recalls her, the W-2 really proves very little other than it being another piece of uncorroborated paper which was used to establish a bogus history for her real work. Which apartment was she THROWN out of in May 1963 and where did she live for the rest of the summer?

Nothing about her story adds up - and until there is actual proof, regular everyday proof of tax returns filed, jobs worked, W-2 copies at the IRS, an apartment with heat and electricity bills, a bus pass, a bus driver who sees them every day all summer, ANYTHING REAL on which to hang an explanation... maybe she could be believed. If, on the other hand she was PART OF THE MACHINE which it surely appears as if she was, much like LEE OSWALD once HARVEY is back from Russia, there would be little sense to leave any evidence behind... yet even with LEE we find corroborated evidence... not so with Judyth.


Mrs. MURRET - No; I didn't, but I did wonder about it, here was a man speaking in Russian who was an American, and he had had his wife over in this country for a year and a half, he said, and I did wonder why he didn't try to teach her English, but anyway, he called her after he got the job, and he got right off the phone and said, "I am going out and look for an apartment." So sure enough he found an apartment the very first day, and he came back and he said, "I have found an apartment," and I think it was $65 a month, he said the rent was. Then he told me about a Mrs. Paine who he said had been very nice to Marina who was going to bring Marina on down with the baby, and he said, "I would like to get a very nice apartment with an extra room so if Mrs. Paine wants to stay a few
days, we will have a place for her to stay." And I wondered about that too, renting an expensive apartment like he had in mind, but apartments were hard to find about that time, and I told him, "If you have a nice apartment, I think you had bett er keep it, because it's just temporary," and it was a nice apartment, or at least that's what he told me. He said, "Do you know how I got that apartment?" And I said, "No, I don't," and he said, "Well, I'll tell you. I rode around a while, and I decided to stop at Myrtle's house ."
Mr. JENNER - That's Myrtle Evans?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - All right, go ahead.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, he said he stopped at Myrtle's house and went up to the door, and she came to the door but she didn't recognize him, she didn't recognize Lee.

Mrs. MURRET - No; Lee moved in right away, on Saturday. In fact, he moved in on the 10th, I think, or the 9th. Anyway after he got it, he moved in himself the next day, and then Marina came in on the Saturday.
Mr. JENNER - Well, Saturday was the seventh, Sunday was the eighth, and Monday was the ninth.
Mrs. MURRET - Of May?
Mr. JENNER - Oh, I am looking at September; I'm sorry. Now, let's see. The 9th of May was on a Thursday, and that's when he got the apartment, the 9th of May, and he moved in the next day; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET - That's right, and he came back to my house on that Saturday morning.
Mr. JENNER - That's the 11th?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes; and Marina and Mrs. Paine were coming in on Saturday, and they arrived there about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, around that time, and then he took all the things he had out in the garage over to the apartment

----------------
Mrs. EVANS - Well, if he rented it on the 9th, then that would be about right. He moved in the day after, I think it was.
Mr. JENNER - On the 9th of May?
Mrs. EVANS - I guess so; yes. That's when I saw him, on the 9th of May, and then he moved in on the 10th.

Mrs. MURRET - You see, he went out all day. He would get up and leave early in the morning. He wouldn't eat any breakfast. I would try to fix him an egg and bacon or something like that, but he didn't want anything to eat for breakfast and he wouldn't take a thing. We always eat a big breakfast in our family, but he wouldn't eat a thing. He would just get dressed and go out with his newspaper to look for a job, and come home in time for supper and then he would sit around a while and watch television and then go to bed, and he followed that same pattern all while he was with us, until he got this job with the Riley Coffee Co.

[David Josephs]

Seems to me, that Oswald who was looking for a job would been willing to work at the State Hospital which in my opinion suggests humanitarian efforts, not the kind of a profile of an assassin or killer. Just saying.

Seems very hard to equate LEE Oswald in East LA with Shaw and Ferrie as being "humanitarian".... nothing about that trip, much like Mexico, had anything to do with what it appears....

McGehee tells of a doctor at that hospital who owns a shooting range in Mexico... more "self-incriminating" breadcrumbs?
From what I've read, the man in Jackson and at the Hospital was not the man Ruby killed.

[David Josephs]

more interesting info... Smathers was providing funding for JVB to live while the Dean of Women created cover jobs to hide these facts....

The same Smathers who was a groomsman at JFK's wedding. But it's just a coincidence ::facepalm::

Baker's father responded by trying to get her arrested as a runaway. However,
with UF's Dean of Women Marian Brady's help, Baker obtained a writ of emancipation (at that time parents had legal custody of their dependents until age 21).
Brady created several cover jobs for Baker to account for funding provided, in fact, by Senator Smathers "even as police outside her office door were demanding entrance," says Baker.

[Drew Phipps]

So let me just throw this out there for consideration: Is JVB some sort of disinformation agent to discredit the "Harvey and Lee" idea? If she had CIA contacts in the past and for a long time had no visible means of support, and suddenly she is hosting seminars in Dallas...?

[Dawn Meredith]

Drew, I can't answer your question. She never attacked JA until a few years back when Fetzer began to do so at the Ed Forum. (I have long believed him to be an agent)

David: Thanks for the great timeline with the living arrangements. Just that alone goes a long way to explain why she so wants people not to read JA. John back up all of his research, Judy just makes hers up it seems. The connections at such an early age are very telling, as well.

[David Josephs]

If, as it appears, the CIA and helpers provided Judyth Anne Vary/Baker with cover employment and a fake history to conceal monies begin forwarded to her by George Smathers and who knows who else

How can anything about her past up to Nov 22, 1963 be considered authentic? or proveable for that matter?

The only two remedial jobs she was able to find, quickly, were both CIA fronts for much more serious work.

I have not read her book - if anyone has can they please post where she lived WHEN she was kicked out of her room, WHERE did she live while Ozzie was at Lillian's looking for work? Where did she live that enabled her to be on the same Magazine ave bus to Reily... any of these locations SHOULD have utility records unless they were hidden or removed on purpose...

[Albert Doyle]

It's kind of obvious that if Judyth Baker was given forged paycheck stubs for Reily Coffee by CIA that alone makes her not ignorable. David obviously isn't ignoring her.


If this interpretation of Baker is accurate that would make her a present live op, which should make her of great interest.


It would also potentially credit some of her claims as possibly being real and being part of that op at the time. There's something that bugs me about Anna Lewis that she's telling the truth, which would potentially conform to this version.


I don't think the Jackson issue was fully hashed out.



.