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3rd part of the Mexico Trip series at CTKA
#11
David Josephs Wrote:
Quote:This above info.is from Chicago Tribune, Tuesday,
November 26,1963

Very funny Harry...

Where do you suppose they got that information? US sources... Mexican? FBI? CIA?


To answer your question it is vitally important
to state, that my trust in all organizations you mention are far from my liking or trust. After escaping from further service to US. agencies in
1965 a gotten battered by them and their kind one can see why I would not knowingly or unknowingly aid their questionable injustice in this
or any case or cause!
I did not know if this Oswald/Mexico report was truth or more fiction, and find great interest in your posts on this subject. Should you read my
1990 MS/Book, CROSSTRAILS, you will find the Oswald/Mexico connections that I experienced.
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#12
Interesting thread. The Oswald fakery in Mexico could be carried by the plan to expand the FPCC op into Mexico. This would give it bureaucratic cover and stop insiders from raising points and asking questions.



.
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#13
Harry Dean Wrote:
David Josephs Wrote:
Quote:This above info.is from Chicago Tribune, Tuesday,
November 26,1963

Very funny Harry...

Where do you suppose they got that information? US sources... Mexican? FBI? CIA?


To answer your question it is vitally important
to state, that my trust in all organizations you mention are far from my liking or trust. After escaping from further service to US. agencies in
1965 a gotten battered by them and their kind one can see why I would not knowingly or unknowingly aid their questionable injustice in this
or any case or cause!
I did not know if this Oswald/Mexico report was truth or more fiction, and find great interest in your posts on this subject. Should you read my
1990 MS/Book, CROSSTRAILS, you will find the Oswald/Mexico connections that I experienced.

Very nice to know that you can get something out of my work.

As I believe I stated... I think like so many areas of this case, they get combined when they shouldn't be.

The traveler versus the phone caller/visitor are in my mind separate events both created to leave an impression. You cant have Oswald in photos on the afternoon of the 2nd and leaving in the morning. You also cant have the evidence all point one way and then change direction when that construct proves wrong.

I'm very excited about this current article yet the final one I am working on will dispel the myth that anyone actually traveled on these buses and that most all of the evidence for this trip was created for the purpose.

Everything happened on a closed saturday when there is no coverage... right.
The cables do not go out until Phillips gets there... right.
CIA HQ tell Mexico it's possible Lee HENRY a 35 year old man in 1963 born in 1939.
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right.....
R. Hunter
Reply
#14
After purchasing both the Del Norte and Greyhound reservations, our traveling Oswald needs to hand over PO#14618 (CE2530) in exchange for ticket #13688 at the Mexico City Del Norte Terminal.

CE2535 p10 tells us that one ANGEL CURIEL was the ticket salesman who performed this exchange on the morning of Oct 2nd prior to the 8:30am departure. But he cannot remember Oswald from photos.

Two other ticket salemen are asked and reply that while they did put some of the info on the bus #332 manifest, they did not recall seeing Oswald at the terminal...

When the ticket is given to the passenger it is stamped on the back with the date and the name of the issuing saleman... we SHOULD see "Oct 2" and "A. CURIEL" on the back of all three stubs for #13688.

Instead we have the name of one of the men who do not recall seeing our man Oswald that morning, and the wrong date - we have the date BARRIOS issued the PO#14618 for this ticket.
Whoever was reconstructing the evidence for #13688 failed to realize these simple things.
They also failed to realize that the Mexico to Monterrey stub would have gone in the envelope for THAT bus driver (they get paid by the trip) and that bus # - 332.

Instead all the evidence winds up in Monterrey, with the wrong date and the wrong person's name on the stamp.

The Evidence IS the Conspiracy IS the Evidence.....



[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=6584&stc=1]


Attached Files
.jpg   CE 2485 Return Bus ticket Oswald from Mexico - stamps are not correct date or person GASCON i.jpg (Size: 491.71 KB / Downloads: 34)
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right.....
R. Hunter
Reply
#15
So what you are saying is, whoever made this reservation paid for the ticket in advance? A not uncommon practice for thrifty gringos nowadays, but perhaps then and there most people just bought the ticket when they actually arrive for the bus. If "Oswald" (or whoever) paid for it in advance (maybe in violation of instructions), then that indicates that "Oswald" (or whoever) did not expect to succeed being allowed to travel to Cuba on Sept. 30. If Oswald was convinced he was going to fail on 9/30, why wait until 10/2 to make the bus ride?
"All that is necessary for tyranny to succeed is for good men to do nothing." (unknown)

James Tracy: "There is sometimes an undue amount of paranoia among some conspiracy researchers that can contribute to flawed observations and analysis."

Gary Cornwell (Dept. Chief Counsel HSCA): "A fact merely marks the point at which we have agreed to let investigation cease."

Alan Ford: "Just because you believe it, that doesn't make it so."
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#16
Drew Phipps Wrote:So what you are saying is, whoever made this reservation paid for the ticket in advance? A not uncommon practice for thrifty gringos nowadays, but perhaps then and there most people just bought the ticket when they actually arrive for the bus. If "Oswald" (or whoever) paid for it in advance (maybe in violation of instructions), then that indicates that "Oswald" (or whoever) did not expect to succeed being allowed to travel to Cuba on Sept. 30. If Oswald was convinced he was going to fail on 9/30, why wait until 10/2 to make the bus ride?

Not exactly Drew.

The reservations were made on Sept 30th at the travel agency with BARRIOS
BARRIOS - who has Mr. LEE inn front of him - takes the payment and gives Mr. LEE PO#14618 and Exchange Order 43599 which are to be given in for the actual tickets - like #13688 from Mexico City to Laredo on Del Norte

Strange thing #1 is that these two items SHOULD have been done at the same time yet one is dated Sept 30 while the other Oct 1.

At 8:15am at the Del Norte terminal in Mexico City he hands over PO#14618 and supposedly gets 3 ticket stubs for #13688 - one of which is found by Marina in Aug 1964 while the other two are found by TREVINO in an envelope for the bus #373 trip between Monterrey and Laredo.

The ticket agent in Mexico City who claims to have done this transaction ANGEL CURIEL is the man whose stamp we should see on the back of all three portions of ticket #13688. Not only does this not happen, CURIEL cannot recall Oswald from the photo and the man whose stamp does appear, JUAN GASCON says he did not recall seeing Oswald. The date of these stamps, even though it is now Oct 2nd, says Sept 30th.

There are more tickets in the Monterrey envelope than passengers. The MExico city #332 bus envelope SHOULD have this first part - they should not BOTH be in the Monterrey envelope and the date stamp on the back needs to have been at least the 2nd of Oct and with CURIEL's name.

ALL of this evidence was created after the fact - as a result conflicts will arise. This is one of those conflicts the FBI knew would not, couldnot be discovered for many years. Sprague was basically removed from HSCA cause he wanted to see all the Mexico evidence.

The CIA said no and required him to sign a secrecy oath which he would not... the rest is Blakey history.

DJ
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right.....
R. Hunter
Reply
#17
David Josephs Wrote:There are more tickets in the Monterrey envelope than passengers. The MExico city #332 bus envelope SHOULD have this first part - they should not BOTH be in the Monterrey envelope and the date stamp on the back needs to have been at least the 2nd of Oct and with CURIEL's name.

ALL of this evidence was created after the fact - as a result conflicts will arise. This is one of those conflicts the FBI knew would not, couldnot be discovered for many years. Sprague was basically removed from HSCA cause he wanted to see all the Mexico evidence.

The CIA said no and required him to sign a secrecy oath which he would not... the rest is Blakey history.

DJ

Holy Crap!! I've got to read this thing again. I'll be back, and please keep it going, DJ!!!

Jim

http:\\HarveyandLee.net
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#18
From the HSCA subcommittee meetings I found the following letter from 10 days prior to the presentation of the WCR as the galleys are being reviewed and/or corrected… Feels like a little vindication of the ideas I am pursuing

Slawson and Fonzi deal exclusively with Oswald in Mexico. These are the first few thoughts from a WC lawyer that there was serious doubt about Mexico. He also expresses his displeasure over Marina not turning in the Ticket stub from Mexico until Aug 27[SUP]th[/SUP]…

While CORNWELL who is questioning Liebleler wants to know if the Marina evidence stub #13688 for Del Norte found in Aug 64, which did not exist - could have been "fabricated"…

hmmm... maybe the evidence IS the conspiracy after all... :Sherlock:


The final series of parts for the final article are in process with 2 of the 3 parts being edited and formatted now. Each part is about 35-40 pages yet 50% of that are the images to support the text.
Part 3a preview below...
DJ



Mr. LIEBELER. I did not ask the FBI for an explanation and they never offered me one.
Mr. CORNWELL. The reason I ask the question is I suppose there might be some chance that the evidence had been fabricated and did not even exist in November 1963. Is that correct? Did you even ask to see if they had checked this location earlier and found nothing?
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't recall making that request.



HSCA Hearing and Volumes V11 p236
JFK Exhibit No. 37
[Memorandum]
SEPTEMBER 14, 1964.

To: Mr. Willens.
From: Mr. Liebeler.

e. The paragraph on bus transportation starting "There is no firm evidence" should be completely rewritten. I do not think there is "convincing evidence" that Oswald was on the buses as stated. One sentence says he was apparently one of four passengers bound for a point beyond Texas. The next suggests that he bought a ticket in Houston for Laredo, which is in Texas. The McFarland testimony is given too much weight. I don't think Mexican immigration records show the time of day he crossed the border. Slawson told me he got the time of crossing from the scheduled arrival of the bus. Now we are using it to show that since he crossed at that time he had to be on the bus.
f . Since we have no direct evidence that Oswald boarded bus 5133 in Houston, the first sentence of the next paragraph ("Hence, the only time . . .") should be changed. That also obviates the necessity that he had to go from New Orleans to Dallas and thence too Houston. There really is almost no evidence at all that he left Houston on that bus and there is really no reason why we should suggest there is . The point can be made without saying that and to seem to rely on really weak evidence is to invite trouble.
g. Again-later in the same paragraph-more reliance on the McFarlands. Their affidavit is very weak-we should not fight it.
h. Then the single ticket from Houston to Laredo again-which probably could not have been Oswald if he were one of the four heading for points beyond Laredo.
i. Also, the assumption that the Twiford call was a local call. Why speculate, make the arguments-he probably would not have called at all if he were not in Houston or going to be in Houston.
j. The conclusion that the evidence is persuasive that Oswald was not in Dallas on September 25 is too strong.




Part 3a preview:

Opening eyes: THE EVIDENCE IS THE CONSPIRACY

In virtually the same manner as the "Oswald at the window with a rifle" evidence was created and submitted as evidence circumstantially incriminating Oswald, the evidence for this trip to and from Mexico follows the same M.O. We can definitely understand the need not to tip the Cubans or Russians regarding one of the, if not THE world's largest communication interception operation by either publishing the Mystery Man's photo or by publishing anything in the report which would divulge sources and means. This carefulness cannot be said for the travel portion of this trip, the location of his stay or in the activities he would have engaged while there. These details of the Mexico story take a backseat to the serious events related to his supposed time there and the events recorded which would incriminate our man Oswald. Their relative unimportance in the scheme of things makes them that much more easy to hide them in plain sight within the evidence.

While speculation is grand, there remains not a stitch of corroborated evidence that our or any Oswald existed outside of the hotel or the Cuban/Russia embassy/consulate. There is also no corroborated evidence it was actually Oswald at the hotel or government buildings at all.

The orchestrated removal of Richard Sprague from leading the House Select Committee's investigation into the assassination of JFK had more to do with the CIA's evidence from Mexico as opposed to anything else. From Gaeton Fonzi's, "The Last Investigation", we learn from Sprague that the CIA's Secrecy Agreement was born out of Sprague's desire to see ALL the Mexico City evidence; the "In Mexico" incriminating evidence of which we come to find there are thousands upon thousands of pages all with the same conclusion: we really don't have the evidence to corroborate that any one person took any part of this trip, so they created some.
Before we proceed let's take a moment and take a mindset break. In 1963 the average citizen did not exhibit the same levels of paranoia towards their government as we see today. And for good reason, "Conspiracies" were something the Commies ran when trying to steal our secrets and upset our way of life. Who believes anything we're told anymore? Today we KNOW conspiracies are part of how government is, was and always will be run. In 1963, the US government was still the good guys to the everyday person. The WCR and a handful of wolves within the democracy would change all that forever.

The stay in Mexico itself is defined by CIA/DFS documentation and FBI reports. In the Mary Ferrell Warren Commission Documents (CIA/FBI/SS/State) database alone there are over 1200 references to "MEXICO" with thousands of other references in a variety of other locations related to the CIA's Mexico records. What we have not finally concluded is whether a real person actually traveled in and out of Mexico at the start and end of these activities, whether there is a direct connection between the man claimed to be traveling to and from Mexico and the activities at the Cuban and Russian consulates/embassies or whether select parts or the entirety of the Mexico visit evidence was created in reports and provided testimony to tell a story.

To begin, we will look at how the evidence of the trip ended with Oswald in Dallas. Then we can address a call on the morning of Nov 23[SUP]rd[/SUP] which must convey the start and end dates of this trip as well as which border crossing was used when according to records reviewed to date there was no communication between the CIA and anyone else related to this trip from Oct 24[SUP]th[/SUP] thru Nov 22[SUP]nd[/SUP] especially nothing having to do with the travel aspect such as mode of transport, location of border crossing, hotel, etc…

Treasury's INS officers in Laredo (or Washington DC for that matter) were made aware of these dates and that specific border crossing) - especially given that the photos are from Oct 4[SUP]th[/SUP] yet the info offered pointed to his leaving on the 2nd from an "unnamed governmental agency". We will attempt to prove that the limited knowledge of those following the request of this "unnamed governmental agency" who asked Lester Johnson of the INS to call Mr. PUGH, Mr. KLINE and Mr. MAY in Laredo had to have come to them from a very small circle of possibilities.
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right.....
R. Hunter
Reply
#19
[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=6762&stc=1]



This confirms that the FBI conducted its own investigation from the end of Oct thru 11/22.... What they found is very revealing.[URL="http://www.ctka.net/2015/Part%203_Section%20B.pdf"]



http://www.ctka.net/2015/Part%203_Section%20B.pdf[/URL] is part 5 of 6 and examines the bus ride back from Mexico. Enjoy

I have yet to find this interview... I don't believe it was ever done... in essence, since none of the Mexico-USA border to San Antonio drivers or passengers can ID Oswald, the investigation just stops at San Antonio.

Arrival in Dallas is missing from the narrative, as is how he gets to the TEC appt and then to the YMCA by 4:30....

In the final article I will name the names and set the stage for what was set in motion on Nov 22 related to this trip.



[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=6760&stc=1]


https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archi...elPageId=2

Regardless of the fact that it was not Oswald, STATE continues to feed the fire by claiming Oswald was photographed leaving the Russian Embassy on Oct.
Which in turn allows the FRONTERA bus at 2pm on the 2nd to be the #1 go to option. Until it is learned that bus does not get Ozzie to Dallas in time...

It was Scott's report to HQ on the 16th which stokes the flames... He is pushing the Kostikov and Castro connections in the face of the FBI finding there were no sightings of Oswald at all by dozens of informants...


[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=6761&stc=1]


Attached Files
.jpg   64-04-08 BEN JULIAN driver from San Antonio to Dallas wa to be interviewed - no record exists.jpg (Size: 129.16 KB / Downloads: 20)
.jpg   63-11-22 russ holmes 104-10423-10268 ANDERSON to SAC Dallas FBI CIA has photo of Oswald leaving.jpg (Size: 10.04 KB / Downloads: 22)
.jpg   63-11-22 FBI Mexi file 105-3702 NARA 124-10230-10429 - 11-22 FBI letter to Hoover FAILED TO DETE.jpg (Size: 37.83 KB / Downloads: 19)
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right.....
R. Hunter
Reply


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