Drew Phipps Wrote:And yet, after all that, the stalwart defense of his buddy, defying the government authorities, testifying under oath 2 times, claiming he knows Oswald's being framed, and after 50 years of opportunities to come clean, Frazier still doesn't say, "Oswald was right there in the doorway with me." I wonder why that is.
Well perhaps because many of us do not believe Oswald was in the doorway.
FWIW I did believe this very long ago- 70's- but have since been of the belief that it's :Lovelady.
Dawn
An interesting take there, Mr. Phipps, but of the two choices rendered, given the wrongfully accused's adamant denial of carrying anything more than a mere lunch bag that morning, I'm going with the latter choice (B).
Once this line of inquiry is pursued even further, I believe a closer examination upon Mr. Frazier's brother-in-law's friendship with Berry Caster (the son of Warren Caster, who actually worked in the TSBD himself, even bringing in two rifles into the building just days before the ambush upon the unarmed representative of the People) would help unravel more than meets the eye here.
There's just something about those two Caster rifles being in the building in advance of the ambush that begs the question, Did those rifles serve as cover for an additional rifle?
A greater mystery here is what did Mr. Frazier know and when did he actually know it (19 is still a tender age where one's allegiance leans more towards protecting one's family than with boldly questioning their activities, especially when they've invited him into their home).
The activities on 5th Street in Irving, Texas late Fall, 1963 up to the week of the assassination in November, IMHO should have been more closely researched/scrutinized.
16-03-2016, 08:31 PM (This post was last modified: 16-03-2016, 09:30 PM by Alan Ford.)
Jim DiEugenio Wrote:Alan: You state/share more than a few valid points here, Mr. DiEugenio, but should you venture back this way at some point, please consider sharing the specific titles of your works here in the event any "Guests" not familiar with them may at least have a reference point.
​I wrote about this in Reclaiming Parkland, rather extensively. (See pages 175-87)
Boy the following is really interesting:
Meanwhile, Mr. Frazier leaves us with these words, quote, "Put yourself in my place, and maybe you'll understand why I did what I did."
Meaning what, Mr. Frazier? Care to elaborate further sir? C'mon, tell us...say what you mean, mean what you say.
​Can you post this interview?
First, appreciate the direct source to glean your thoughts from, Mr. DiEugenio @ your worthy piece Reclaiming Parkland. Many of us already within the assassination research community are fully aware of your contributions, but it's encouraging to also enlighten any "Guests" following along as well.
In respect to Mr. Frazier's quote, "Put yourself in my place, and maybe you'll understand why I did what I did."
I'll have to backtrack my recent YouTube video selections, but will retrace my steps back here later to embed the source/w/notation @ specific time frame, etc.
* 4:25PM EST/Update: For clarification sake, upon doubling back to the video, Mr. DiEugenio, and pinning the source down to specifics, the quote attributed to Mr. Frazier was paraphrased, when in actuality his genuine words between the 1:00-1:29 mark are as follows ----> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDygWU6kink
Jim DiEugenio Wrote:Wesley Frazier is curious because of more than one thing.
First, he insists that Oswald brought the long paper bag into the TSBD that day. But, as Sylvia Meagher said, no one else at the TSBD saw it. No one. And if you find the claim about the Dallas Police failing to photograph the gun sack in situ dubious, then this becomes a real problem for Frazier.
Second, is the story about following Oswald into the building that day as Oswald skipped a bit ahead of him. Yet, accordion to Ed Shields, Frazier stayed behind and gunned his engine while Oswald had been dropped off already.
Third, how on earth could Linnie Mae Randle have seen the gun sack from the position she said she was in at the house that day? That photo is in the WC. When this fell apart, the story was that she saw him through the wood slats in the garage approach the car. Two problems: she did not say that in her WC deposition. Second, it is hard to believe she saw through those slats to see what was in Oswald's hands on the far side of the car.
Fourth, as I said previously, Frazier's interview with Moriarty about locking his care very night--except that night-- is weird.
(I won't comment on the whole PM imbroglio. Like I said, that will not be decided until we see the original or the first generation.)
I have always thought that Frazier is one of the key witnesses who should be called if there is a reopening of the case.
I could go on and on, and I did in my two most recent books.
Just adding a few visuals to this excellent post
Long paper bag shown to be impossible to hold as described - by none other than Dan Rather
Mr. BALL - You say he had the package under his arm when you saw him? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - You mean one end of it under the armpit? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; he had it up just like you stick it right under your arm like that. Mr. BALL - And he had the lower part-- Mr. FRAZIER - The other part with his right hand.
"accordion(sic) to Ed Shields, Frazier stayed behind and gunned his engine while Oswald had been dropped off already."
In reality, Shields says that he is told this by his "friends" Jarman, Givens and possibly Norman: I posted about this a while back - none of the statements from Givens or Jarman mentions talking to Shields that morning.
I did all I could to corroborate Shields' statement yet there is nothing in the Evidence which suggests these men where outside when Oswald was walking up. The only man to see Oswald come in was Dougherty - but the WC didn't much like his answers - despite how hard as they tried to get him off his answers. Other than empty hands - the testimony fits the facts.
Mr. BALL - The statement says, "I recall vaguely having seen Lee Oswald, when he came to work at about 8 a.m. today." Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's right. Mr. BALL - Now, is that a very definite impression that you saw him that morning when he came to work? Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, oh--it's like this--I'll try to explain it to you this way--- you see, I was sitting on the wrapping table and when he came in the door, I just caught him out of the corner of my eye---that's the reason why I said it that way. Mr. BALL - Did he come in with anybody? Mr. DOUGHERTY - No. Mr. BALL - He was alone? Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; he was alone. Mr. BALL - Do you recall him having anything in his hand? Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't see anything, if he did. Mr. BALL - Did you pay enough attention to him, you think, that you would remember whether he did or didn't? Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I believe I can---yes, sir---I'll put it this way; I didn't see anything in his hands at the time. Mr. BALL - In other words, your memory is definite on that is it? Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands? Mr. DOUGHERTY - I would say that---yes, sir. Mr. BALL - Or, are you guessing? Mr. DOUGHERTY - I don't think so. Mr. BALL - You saw him come in the door? Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes. Mr. BALL - The back door on the first floor? Mr. DOUGHERTY - It was in the back door.
Neither of these men - friends of Shields - corroborates the story. If someone can find corroboration for this please post... Mr. BALL - Now on November 22, what time did you get to work? Mr. JARMAN - About 5 minutes after 8. Mr. BALL - Was Oswald there when you got there? Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - Where did you see him the first time? Mr. JARMAN - Well, he was on the first floor filling orders.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee Oswald when you got to work? Mr. NORMAN. No; I don't recall seeing him when I got to work. Mr. BALL. Did you remember seeing him at any time that morning? Mr. NORMAN. Yes; around about 10 or 10:15, somewhere in the neighborhood of that.
Mr. WILLIAMS. The morning of November 22d Oswald was on the floor. The only time I saw him that morning was a little after eight, after I had started working. As usual, he was walking around with a clipboard in his hands, I believe he was.
Mr. GIVENS. Well, not too often. Mr. BELIN. When you got to work on the morning of November 22, did you see him at all there or not? Mr. GIVENS. 22d? That was on Friday, wasn't it? Mr. BELIN. Friday; that is the day the President came by. Mr. GIVENS. Yes, I saw him that day. Mr. BELIN. Where did you see him first? Mr. GIVENS. Well, I first saw him on the first floor. Mr BELIN. About what time was that? Mr. GIVENS. Well, about 8:30. Mr. BELIN. Now, let me ask you this. You got to work at a quarter to 8? Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN. What did you do between a quarter of 8 and 8:30? Where were Mr. GIVENS. Well, I went upstairs. We went to work at 8 o'clock.
Now, what Linnie Mae would have seen from her open door in the house. The small window in the kitchen is the window we see next to the garage.
Thanks go out to Don R. The paper bag story is, imo, offered by the DPD while questioning Wesley and after creating the bag with which we see Montgomery leaving the TSBD.
The man who's job it is to wrap books ALWAYS stays at his station... If there was an opportunity to get a paper sack made and to Irving on Thursday - please illustrate.
the fact that a paper sack was mailed to Oswald and found after the fact remains an easily forgotten piece of the paper sack saga.
Mr. BALL. What was he carrying? Mrs. RANDLE. He was carrying a package in a sort of a heavy brown bag, heavier than a grocery bag it looked to me. It was about, if I might measure, about this long, I suppose, and he carried it in his right hand, had the top sort of folded down and had a grip like this, and the bottom, he carried it this way, you know, and it almost touched the ground as he carried it. Mr. BALL. Let me see. He carried it in his right hand, did he? Mrs. RANDLE. That is right. Mr. BALL. And where was his hand gripping the middle of the package? Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir; the top with just a little bit sticking up. You know just like you grab something like that. Mr. BALL. And he was grabbing it with his right hand at the top of the package and the package almost touched the ground? Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. He walked over to your house, did he? Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I saw him as he started crossing the street. Where he come from then I couldn't say. Mr. BALL. You don't know where he went from that? Mrs. RANDLE. Where he went? Mr. BALL. Did you see him go to the car? Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. Mr. BALL. What did he do? Mrs. RANDLE. He opened the right back door and I just saw that he was laying the package down so I closed the door. I didn't recognize him as he walked across my carport and I at that moment I wondered who was fixing to come to my back door so I opened the door slightly and saw that it--I assumed he was getting in the car but he didn't, so he come back and stood on the driveway.
Mr. BALL. What about length? Mrs. RANDLE. You mean the entire bag? Mr. BALL. Yes. Mrs. RANDLE. There again you have the problem of all this down here. It was folded down, of course, if you would take it from the bottom-- Mr. BALL. Fold it to about the size that you think it might be. Mrs. RANDLE. This is the bottom here, right. This is the bottom, this part down here. Mr. BALL. I believe so, but I am not sure. But let's say it is. Mrs. RANDLE. And this goes this way, right? Do you want me to hold it? Mr. BALL. Yes. Mrs. RANDLE. About this. Mr. BALL. Is that about right? That is 28 1/2 inches. Mrs. RANDLE. I measured 27 last time. Mr. BALL. You measured 27 once before? Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
Dawn: I was not referring to Lovelady. Frazier did identify Lovelady as being on the steps at one point. I was referring to the mythical "Prayer Person", at whom, according to the Darnell frame, Frazier was looking towards at the instant that picture was taken, and Lovelady in fact is several inches taller than Prayer Person (and Lovelady was likely walking down the street with Bill Shelly when the Darnell film was being made). AFAIK, Frazier has never, in 50 years, been able (or willing) to tell us who that person is.
"All that is necessary for tyranny to succeed is for good men to do nothing." (unknown)
James Tracy: "There is sometimes an undue amount of paranoia among some conspiracy researchers that can contribute to flawed observations and analysis."
Gary Cornwell (Dept. Chief Counsel HSCA): "A fact merely marks the point at which we have agreed to let investigation cease."
Alan Ford: "Just because you believe it, that doesn't make it so."
Drew Phipps Wrote:And yet, after all that, the stalwart defense of his buddy, defying the government authorities, testifying under oath 2 times, claiming he knows Oswald's being framed, and after 50 years of opportunities to come clean, Frazier still doesn't say, "Oswald was right there in the doorway with me." I wonder why that is.
There's a poster on MacRae's forum. I could dig later and find his name if you want, who said he's called Frazier within the last year and put it directly to him and Frazier said something like "No, Lee Oswald was definitely not on the steps with us during the assassination".
I think we know who is doing the speculation and conjecture here.
The other problem is this: The whole bag and curtain rods story was denied by Oswald. Therefore it had to originate with Frazier or his sister, or the police.
Second, how did the paper get from the TSBD to either Beckley or the Paine house? No one has ever been able to explain that. The testimony of Troy West is pretty solid here. He dispensed the wrapping tape. Never left his post, not even for lunch. Never saw Oswald approach him for tape.
The FBI tested the paper and found no lubricant on it. Even though the rifles were alleged soaked in cosmoline before their voyage over to America.
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