The other problem is this: The whole bag and curtain rods story was denied by Oswald. Therefore it had to originate with Frazier or his sister, or the police.
Second, how did the paper get from the TSBD to either Beckley or the Paine house? No one has ever been able to explain that. The testimony of Troy West is pretty solid here. He dispensed the wrapping tape. Never left his post, not even for lunch. Never saw Oswald approach him for tape.
The FBI tested the paper and found no lubricant on it. Even though the rifles were alleged soaked in cosmoline before their voyage over to America.
Something really smells about this story.
Excellent points all around, Mr. DiEugenio.
*Sidebar: @Mr. Josephs or anyone else familiar with Mr. Alyea's recollection of if he saw any evidence of a paper bag during the initial search (not the scripted versions, but actually doing the initial search during the immediate aftermath).
Did the emergence of the paper bag come about before Mr. Frazier was picked up by DPD detectives (Rose and Stovall), Or afterwards?
I'm just having a hard time thinking anyone could miss the large bag on public display by the DPD in front of the TSBD later that afternoon (hell, with all due respect, Grammy Award winning music artist Stevie Wonder couldn't have missed a bag that big). Yet, no one else save for the contingent on 5th Street in Irving managed to see it.
Something is certainly amiss here.
*Final thought this evening: We know Mr. Frazier gave the wrongfully accused rides to and from work on Friday's and Monday's. Do we know how the wrongfully accused got to work on Tuesday--Thursday?
Jim would have to be correct unless Wesley stopped of in Oak Cliff which is not something he's ever said...
When investigating the McWatters bus ride we learn that even though his bus stops about 7 blocks from Oswald's room, the Beckley bus - which he would have taken home every day and back to work each morning since there was a bus stop virtually outside his room and takes him to Elm and Houston
Mr. BALL - All right, now that is bus stop for Beckley bus. Mr. McWATTERS - That is bus stop for Beckley bus. Mr. BALL - Northeast corner Houston and Elm. Mr. McWATTERS - Northeast corner of Houston and Elm. Mr. BALL - The Beckley bus goes on across directly in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building? Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct.
From what I can tell, there was no investigation into the busline, bus driver or other passengers on the Beckley line but they do mention where a transfer could be used... the trip from TSBD to Beckley did not require a transfer.
We are to remember that if a passenger uses a transfer, he gives it up. The other thing to remember is Oswald changed his clothes before he went to the Theater. The bus transfer in that shirt's pocket, unused, would have to be moved to the new shirt and not discovered until 4:00, 2 hours after his arrest.
Ok Alan - go get 'em. Maybe you can find something to corroborate his taking this bus to and from work from Monday eve thru Friday morn...
DJ
Seems there were a few routes he could have taken
Methodical, in depth analysis w/clarity once again, Mr. Josephs.
I've bookmarked the Greater Dallas bus transit authority's website. When I'm in a more secure setting (a pay phone) I'll venture a phone call to the DART to make some inquiries about Bus No. 22 circa 1963. Hopefully, the individual I speak to is familiar with the route drivers of that time period, and is willing to share that bus number's designated-driver with me. Of course, there is no guarantee he hasn't left this realm already. It's a shot in the dark as they say, but worth pursuing, so should I cull anything worthy of sharing I'll keep you posted.
Meanwhile, one would think anyone who drove the wrongfully accused back and forth to work would step out of the shadows into the limelight for his 15 minutes of fame.
Hopefully, Mr. DiEugenio's mention of Mr. Herrara can shed some light on this transportation issue.
*Sidebar: in the following video Mr. Frazier gets a bit testy ----> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61woNu98rlM and also mentions that there were some occasions when his car wouldn't start he'd hop a ride with Billy "lying sack of smit" Lovelady, and also mutually return the same if Lovelady's car was having problems. Did any of these instances occur with the wrongfully accused in tow, thus making a threesome?
Jim DiEugenio Wrote:...if you don't have anything to say about Frazier and his story, except relaying Duncan's info, then fine. Just don't say anything.
CTer Lee Kania just told me:
" When I spoke to Buell by phone he told me he saw Oswald after the shooting walking on Houston street. He had come from the rear door by the loading dock. I believe this is the same door they entered in the morning.
Buell never saw Oswald anywhere on the steps during the motorcade event. In fact he told me if he had he would have definitely told the police that fact. The reason being was because they were not only accusing Lee of shooting the President but also trying to connect Buell to being a co-conspirator. If Buell tells the police Lee was on the front steps with him ,then he would not only have cleared Lee, but himself of the crime. "
Pretty emphatic on Frazier's behalf that he didn't see Oswald. Kinda cuts through all of Parker's conjecture and speculation...
Sadly, in my 20 years of digging I cannot remember reading anything about the three men in the same car. Obviously I have not read everything yet I am lucky enough to remember 95% of what I read.
The problem with the evidence is - who and what to believe...
The depth and breadth of those on FBI/CIA/MID/ONI payroll who were spreading stories to confuse the issues along with others who were simply wrong or motivated by some hidden force to further confuse issues is hard to comprehend.
I truly do not believe that these details in the minutia (how and with who Oswald traveled) matters much in the grand scheme of things.
For example - I am almost finished with an article I am writing called "The Mauser, the Carcano and Lt Day's rifle" for ctka.net
I was asked once if I thought the rifle Day was carrying was the same as C2766...
Luckily I found a HUGE image of Day and the rifle and was able to make the comparison... I believe what I will show will come as a shock. ::
Going back to the first post Alan,
Quote:Here's a rather interesting exchange with Buell Wesley Frazier during his House Select Committee on Assassinations in the late 1970's:
Moriarty: And that was after you had, uh-that you went to Irving.
Frazier: Hm-hmm
Moriarty: This is after- you knew at that time-you knew that Oswald was being.
Frazier: Framed
The FRAME involves this rifle. If Ozzie had just waited to be arrest at the window of the 6th floor - you know for History's sake, then the process described as how he acquired the rifle could make some sense - he didn't care who knew.
Yet since that didn't happen, and the rifle's story - along with the famous paper bag, Wesley and Linnie Mae - are as transparent as cellophane to specifically incriminate Oswald via Hidell via impossible ordering, paying for and delivery processes... the minor details, as Salandria said, simply wears us down and lead nowhere.
The 1st generation of skeptics show that 50 years ago, intelligent men and women saw easily thru this charade.
It is from this work and the ongoing work of many that I began my "Evidence IS the Conspiracy" series.
As humans we like to solve puzzles and we like neat little endings that tie everything together - so we delve into the minutia with gusto.
It is here, in the minutia that the conspiracy is exposed since the MACRO details, while attempting to hide the conspiracy, screams it as loud as the Emperor in his New Clothes as we all stare amazed at it's naked declaration.
"I'm afraid we were misled," Salandria saidsadly. "All the critics, myself included, were misled very early. I see that now. We spent too much time and effort micro-analyzing the details of the assassination when all the time it was obvious, it was blatantly obvious that it was a conspiracy. Don't youthink that the men who killed Kennedy had the means to do it in the most sophisticated and subtle way? They chose not to. Instead, they picked the shooting gallery that was Dealey Plaza and did it in the most barbarous and openly arrogant manner. The cover story was transparent and designed not to hold, to fall apart at the slightest scrutiny. The forces that killed Kennedy wanted the message clear: 'We are in control and no one -- not the President, nor Congress, nor any elected official -- no one can do anything about it.' It was a message to the people that their government was powerless. And the people eventually got the message. Consider what has happened since the Kennedy assassination. People see government today as unresponsive to their needs, yet the budget and power of the military and intelligence establishment have increased tremendously.
"The tyranny of power is here. Current events tell us that those who killed Kennedy can only perpetuate their power by promoting social upheaval both athome and abroad. And that will lead not to revolution but to repression. I suggest to you, my friend, that the interests of those who killed Kennedy now transcend national boundaries and national priorities. No doubt we are dealing now with an international conspiracy. We must face that fact -- and not waste any more time micro-analyzing the evidence. That's exactly what they want us to do. They have kept us busy for so long. And I will bet, buddy, that is what will happen to you. They'll keep you very, very busy and, eventually, they'll wear you down." -The Last Investigation, Gaeton Fonzi
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
Drew Phipps Wrote:And yet, after all that, the stalwart defense of his buddy, defying the government authorities, testifying under oath 2 times, claiming he knows Oswald's being framed, and after 50 years of opportunities to come clean, Frazier still doesn't say, "Oswald was right there in the doorway with me." I wonder why that is.
Could it be? Out of the shadows?? But how could it be possible?
Reference made to "PBS Nova Cold Case JFK".
reopenkennedycase.org/RoKc site, photos category-Suspects/Witnesses? Album-Clarence M Kelley in front of TSBD? Photo 5-Lady wearing coat and standing on doorway west side lower step, any id?
The other problem is this: The whole bag and curtain rods story was denied by Oswald. Therefore it had to originate with Frazier or his sister, or the police.
Second, how did the paper get from the TSBD to either Beckley or the Paine house? No one has ever been able to explain that. The testimony of Troy West is pretty solid here. He dispensed the wrapping tape. Never left his post, not even for lunch. Never saw Oswald approach him for tape.
The FBI tested the paper and found no lubricant on it. Even though the rifles were alleged soaked in cosmoline before their voyage over to America.
Something really smells about this story.
Excellent points all around, Mr. DiEugenio.
*Sidebar: @Mr. Josephs or anyone else familiar with Mr. Alyea's recollection of if he saw any evidence of a paper bag during the initial search (not the scripted versions, but actually doing the initial search during the immediate aftermath).
Did the emergence of the paper bag come about before Mr. Frazier was picked up by DPD detectives (Rose and Stovall), Or afterwards?
I'm just having a hard time thinking anyone could miss the large bag on public display by the DPD in front of the TSBD later that afternoon (hell, with all due respect, Grammy Award winning music artist Stevie Wonder couldn't have missed a bag that big). Yet, no one else save for the contingent on 5th Street in Irving managed to see it.
Something is certainly amiss here.
*Final thought this evening: We know Mr. Frazier gave the wrongfully accused rides to and from work on Friday's and Monday's. Do we know how the wrongfully accused got to work on Tuesday--Thursday?
Another bit of info on the paper bag....
The follow refers to a change the FBI had made to a report DRAIN filed about a conversation with DAY.
This report contradicts those who not only claimed to have seen the bag but the photos of Montgomery with the bag
It also mentions how only TRULY sees this bag and provides the paper. We know Ozzie did not make it and Monty is in the TSBD for hours before coming down with it (I also suggest you read Day, Studebakers and Monty's account of the bag... plays like the keystone cops).
There are also a large batch of images all related to the original bag, the replica bag and who knows what else
Mr. BELIN. What did you do with the bag after you found it and you put this writing on after you dusted it? Mr. DAY. I released it to the FBI agent. Mr. BELIN. Did you take it down to the station with you? Mr. DAY. I didn't take it with me. I left it with the men when I left. I left Detectives Hicks and Studebaker to bring this in with them when they brought other equipment in.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a paper sack in the items that were taken from the Texas School Book Depository building? Mr. HICKS. Paper bag? Mr. BALL. Paper bag. Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Johnson and Montgomery - they were with me all the time over in that one corner.
Mr. STUDEBAKER. I don't know - I picked it up and dusted it and they took it down there and sent it to Washington and that's the last I have seen of it, and I don't know. Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of it before you picked it up? Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. We found this brown paper sack or case. It was made out of heavy wrapping paper. Actually, it looked similar to the paper that those books was wrapped in. It was just a long narrow paper bag. Mr. BELIN. Where was this found? Mr. JOHNSON. Right in the corner of the building. Mr. BELIN. On what floor? Mr. JOHNSON. Sixth floor. Mr. BELIN. Which corner? Mr. JOHNSON. Southeast corner. Mr. BELIN. Do you know who found it? Mr. JOHNSON. I know that the first I saw of it, L. D. Montgomery, my partner, picked it up off the floor, and it was folded up, and he unfolded it.
Mr. JOHNSON. I would say that the sack was folded up here and it was east of the pipes in the corner. To the best of my memory, that is where my partner picked it up. I was standing there when he picked it up. Mr. BELIN. You were standing there when he picked it up? Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, because the Crime Lab was already finished where I was, and I had already walked off to where he was.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Right over here is where we found that long piece of paper that looked like a sack, that the rifle had been in. Mr. BALL. Does that have a number--that area--where you found that long piece of paper? Mr. MONTGOMERY. It's No. 2 right here. Mr. BALL. You found the sack in the area marked 2 on Exhibit J to the Studebaker deposition. Did you pick the sack up? Mr. MONTGOMERY. Which sack are we talking about now? Mr. BALL. The paper sack? Mr. MONTGOMERY. The small one or the larger one? Mr. BALL. The larger one you mentioned that was in position 2. Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes. Mr. BALL. You picked it up? Mr. MONTGOMERY. Wait just a minute no; I didn't pick it up. I believe Mr. Studebaker did. We left it laying right there so they could check it for prints.
Mr. Ball then goes off in another direction with his questioning.... I guess he didn't see this captioned photo
"It was immediately locked up by DAY, kept in his possession until it was turned over to FBI Agent DRAIN....
First, I hit a stonewall upon dailing the contact number for Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART) to determine if their records would help pinpoint any information on who was the designated-driver of Bus 22, the bus that would have been ideal for the wrongfully accused to ride to and from work circa 1963, given that it made a scheduled stop right there at Houston & Elm, his place of employment, and also was on a direct path to the Beckley Street rooming house. The individual I spoke with without sharing their name (more concerned about repercussions on their end than my own), simply gave me the old *A.J. Millican treatment with a noticeably deep Texas drawl ("Ah'm sorry poddnah ah can't help yall").
Now, that said, not enough praise can ever be heaped upon Mr. Salandria.
I'm looking forward to reading your breakthrough piece on the rifle matter, Mr. Josephs (son of a gun--no pun intended). What a banner year thus far for the research community as a whole: exposing the phantom money order, and now putting the rifle under the scope as well.
Final thought this evening comes with an observation about the following video w/Mr. Frazier ----->
A rather interesting choice of words beginning around 53:28 forward until he is derailed/interrupted by the host, who nervously redirects the conversation away from where Mr. Frazier was headed (further elaboration on the "Truth" in this matter as oppose to the BIG lie).
Moriarty: And that was after you had, uh-that you went to Irving.
Frazier: Hm-hmm
Moriarty: This is after- you knew at that time-you knew that Oswald was being.
Frazier: Framed
*above exchange per Mr. Frazier's House Select Committee on Assassinations interview.
*aforementioned A. J. Millican (captured in Altgen's 6 in steel helmet standing close to lamp post, thick arms folded across his chest, looking up Elm w/his back to the presidential limousine. Sounds like a decent guy who just didn't see anything out of the ordinary that afternoon)
Mr. Frazier, however, given his sentiments in the video and his HSCA exchange still believes the wrongfully accused was Framed.
LR Trotter Wrote:Could it be? Out of the shadows?? But how could it be possible?
Reference made to "PBS Nova Cold Case JFK".
reopenkennedycase.org/RoKc site, photos category-Suspects/Witnesses? Album-Clarence M Kelley in front of TSBD? Photo 5-Lady wearing coat and standing on doorway west side lower step, any id?
Do you have a link? I don't have the time, or the interest, in scanning other websites...
"All that is necessary for tyranny to succeed is for good men to do nothing." (unknown)
James Tracy: "There is sometimes an undue amount of paranoia among some conspiracy researchers that can contribute to flawed observations and analysis."
Gary Cornwell (Dept. Chief Counsel HSCA): "A fact merely marks the point at which we have agreed to let investigation cease."
Alan Ford: "Just because you believe it, that doesn't make it so."
" When I spoke to Buell by phone he told me he saw Oswald after the shooting walking on Houston street. He had come from the rear door by the loading dock. I believe this is the same door they entered in the morning.
Buell never saw Oswald anywhere on the steps during the motorcade event. In fact he told me if he had he would have definitely told the police that fact. The reason being was because they were not only accusing Lee of shooting the President but also trying to connect Buell to being a co-conspirator. If Buell tells the police Lee was on the front steps with him ,then he would not only have cleared Lee, but himself of the crime.
Pretty emphatic on Frazier's behalf that he didn't see Oswald. Kinda cuts through all of Parker's conjecture and speculation...
Thank you for tracking down the source of that information. It is interesting, however, that Frazier's account (to Kania) of Oswald's leaving the building doesn't match Oswald's account of leaving the building.
"All that is necessary for tyranny to succeed is for good men to do nothing." (unknown)
James Tracy: "There is sometimes an undue amount of paranoia among some conspiracy researchers that can contribute to flawed observations and analysis."
Gary Cornwell (Dept. Chief Counsel HSCA): "A fact merely marks the point at which we have agreed to let investigation cease."
Alan Ford: "Just because you believe it, that doesn't make it so."
" When I spoke to Buell by phone he told me he saw Oswald after the shooting walking on Houston street. He had come from the rear door by the loading dock. I believe this is the same door they entered in the morning.
Buell never saw Oswald anywhere on the steps during the motorcade event. In fact he told me if he had he would have definitely told the police that fact. The reason being was because they were not only accusing Lee of shooting the President but also trying to connect Buell to being a co-conspirator. If Buell tells the police Lee was on the front steps with him ,then he would not only have cleared Lee, but himself of the crime.
Pretty emphatic on Frazier's behalf that he didn't see Oswald. Kinda cuts through all of Parker's conjecture and speculation...
Thank you for tracking down the source of that information. It is interesting, however, that Frazier's account (to Kania) of Oswald's leaving the building doesn't match Oswald's account of leaving the building.
Which is why Armstrong has merit. Because when you look at other people's accounts of Frazier telling that story, Frazier said Oswald then crossed Houston St after walking down it from the back entrance and proceeded up Elm. To me this is pure evidence of two Oswald's at the Depository, since this Frazier Oswald has to be different than Roger's Craig's station wagon Oswald.
This site has drifted because we now have a member who is basically serving as a defensive blocker for those who violently oppose Armstrong and not accounting for it while aggressively telling those who support a better version of events to go to other sites. There is an overt attempt to make the Deep Politics board a place where the Armstrong deniers establish the new norm while creating an atmosphere where good evidence is attacked and ignored.
18-03-2016, 05:56 PM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2016, 07:28 PM by Alan Ford.)
Moriarty: And that was after you had, uh-that you went to Irving.
Frazier: Hm-hmm
Moriarty: This is after- you knew at that time-you knew that Oswald was being.
Frazier: Framed
*above exchange per Mr. Frazier's House Select Committee on Assassinations interview.
With each passing year, though Mr. Lane (Mark), Mr. Salandria (Vincent), Ms./Mrs. Meagher (Sylvia), Mr. Weisberg (Harold), etc. knew right from the very beginning, the word frame is an appropriate response. Why would officialdom have to frame someone for a genuine criminal act?
The wrongfully accused gave us the answer 50+ years ago, quote, "I'm a Patsy". Genuine criminal acts don't require the word frame. However, Patsies require the word frame, frame's cousin lie, and sinister friend deceit.
Here, courtesy of one of the best one-on-one interviews w/Mr. Frazier I'd had an opportunity to watch, is Mr. Frazier sharing more about the day democracy died, and lying treasonous cowards lied ----->
He is pretty sharp, at one point in the exchange realizing he--of his own volition--places Billy "lying sack of smit" Lovelady down on the bottom step (Oops), then, of course, recants and adjusts his remarks in retraction of that gaff to accommodate Altgen's 6.
What's more interesting is why he would suggest BNL move from atop the steps, which affords an elevated view, to an even lower position, especially if the issue all along was BNL couldn't see over everyone else?!
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