John F. Kennedy Pushed for Inspection of Israel Nuclear Facilities

[Albert Doyle]

2.) Piper is a biased observer.

No doubt, but that doesn't dismiss all his evidence. His tracing of the Tibor Rosenbaum covert banks and their obvious political interests is significant and deserves credit in my opinion.


NUMEC was owned by Stern who also owned WSDU. In my opinion no objective researcher would ignore this.



NRC is a government agency (susceptible to pro-government bias).

[Scott Kaiser]

Hi David, it wasn't plutonium France kept from Israel but uranium, it's much harder to build a nuke from plutonium then uranium, and Israel's reactor was not set up for war grade plutonium manufacturing.

​Jim DiEugenio May I ask you a question Scott:

Did you read Mattson's book?

No, but, did you read Huckleberry Finn?

I simply asked you, what do you call credible? You replied:

So when I ask for a credible source for something, I am trying to find out if the original accusation comes from a source like this, or if its just the musings of some Cuban exiles in Miami or Piper's book. If its from the latter, then I want to know what he in turn based it on since 1) That is a secondary source

However, if you're not being [objective] how then can you judge right from wrong? In other words, I can identify a purpose of an event such as, William Pawley who's communicating to my father in first hand perspective said "spending my money on getting rid of Kennedy was my best investment." My father noted Pawley's conversation quoting him. I merely found the letter, this is not providing third hand information due to the information being captured in real time. Musing is just a refection of thought.

Being objective also allows me to describe the differences in first and second hand accounts, that's what the author does right? First hand accounts is based on the author's personal experience. And, the second hand account is based off the author's research instead of personal experiences. Footnotes are good to have when the author is speaking on second hand knowledge. However, it's also equally important to record the author's first-hand witnesses as well as providing documentation which we all know comes from second hand sources.


Bottom line is, whether any information comes from first hand accounts or second hand testimony, all of it should be approached with caution. Additional research should always be conducted to help conclude its origin, authenticity and truth.

[Jim DiEugenio]

2.) Piper is a biased observer.

No doubt, but that doesn't dismiss all his evidence. His tracing of the Tibor Rosenbaum covert banks and their obvious political interests is significant and deserves credit in my opinion.


NUMEC was owned by Stern who also owned WSDU. In my opinion no objective researcher would ignore this.



NRC is a government agency (susceptible to pro-government bias).

What is the evidence NUMEC was owned by WDSU? (I am still waiting for the source on Angleton.)

And the source I cited was not the NRC, it was an inquiry by the NRC headed by their safeguards officer. And if you read my review you will find out who that was and what he did.

[Jim DiEugenio]

Scott:

I don't have the slightest of what you are talking about in post 42.

In addition to not having read Huckleberry Finn, I have never read your book(s) or anything else you wrote about your father.

What I was talking about was not a direct reference to you, but the general tendency of some people to listen to someone like a former Cuban exile and then take their word for what the person said e.g. Lamar Waldron, Gus Russo, Mellen with Murgado. You know, the guy who said he worshipped Kennedy and then spent the whole interview talking about how RFK hired Bernardo DeTorres to protect his brother and it was Bernardo who was at Odio's door. Or Sergio Arcacha Smith saying to Russo that he never heard of Rose Cheramie. Or Harry Williams telling Waldron that he was meeting with RFK during the California primary to remind him about C Day etc.

I for one do not find any of that very credible, for a lot of different reasons which I will not go into now. But part of it comes from my own experience. You are invited to read my reviews, of Waldron for example, and see if you find me objective or not. I would rather you do that than say I am not objective about your work--when in fact I have never read your work.

[Paul Rigby]

Oh dear.

Neff's so childishly dishonest it almost feels unkind to expose his wretched attempts to deceive. But I simply can't deny myself the pleasure.

Anyone interested in a quick, honest and reasonably detailed guide to De Gaulle's attempts to rebalance France's relations with the Middle East, not excluding his moves to curtail Franco-Israeli nuclear collaboration- which had additional motivations, of course - might usefully read Michael Curtis' introduction to the 2004 Transaction edition of Raymond Aron's De Gaulle, Israel and the Jews, a book originally published in 1969 (or thereabouts). Pages xxiv-xxvii of Curtis' intro, reproduced in his 2013 book, Jews, Antisemitism, and the Middle East (pp104-106, also Transaction) contains a good beginner's guide to the changes in policy and personnel that De Gaulle initiated upon his return to power in 1958. The big push to break with Israel over Dimona commenced two years later, in mid-1960. It's easy enough to find online, and demolishes the nonsense posted above.

Avner Cohen's Israel and the Bomb adds a piece to the jigsaw by telling us: "Under Charles De Gaulle, however, French policy changed, and it appears that by 1963, when the reactor was near completion, France imposed major constraints on supplying uranium to Dimona."

Michael Karpin's The Bomb in the Basement: How Israel Went Nuclear and what that Means for the World (2006), contains a chapter with the title "De Gaulle Throws a Monkey Wrench in the Works".

Or try this:

Israel used many subterfuges to conceal activity at Dimona. It called the plant a manganese plant, and rarely, a textile plant. The United States by the end of 1958 had taken pictures of the project from U-2 spy planes, and identified the site as a probable reactor complex. The concentration of Frenchmen was also impossible to hide from ground observers. In 1960, before the reactor was operating, France, now under the leadership of de Gaulle, reconsidered and decided to suspend the project. After several months of negotiation, they reached an agreement in November that allowed the reactor to proceed if Israel promised not to make nuclear weapons and to announce the project to the world. Work on the plutonium reprocessing plant halted.

Source: THE THIRD TEMPLE'S HOLY OF HOLIES: ISRAEL'S NUCLEAR WEAPONS

Warner D. Farr, LTC, U.S. Army

The Counterproliferation Papers, Future Warfare Series No. 2

USAF Counterproliferation Center

Air War College, Air University

Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama

September 1999

http://fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/farr.htm

De Gaulle had an additional, and distinctly personal, reason for bringing a halt to close co-ordination with Israel: attempts to overthrow and assassinate the General were aided and abetted by Israeli intelligence - using Stern and Etzel gang members or sympathisers - and Zionist networks in America.

As early as March 1961, prior to the Generals' revolt in Algeria, the arrest of Jean Ghenassia, an Algerian Jew and suspected OAS member, prompted charges that he had worked in close liaison with Israeli intelligence officers smuggled into Algeria by submarine in December 1960.

A rash of French newspaper reports in 1961 and 1962 accused Israeli intelligence of support for OAS terrorism, with additional focus on the backing enjoyed by Jacques Soustelle, the head of the political wing of the OAS, allegedly with the blessing of Ben Gurion. Soustelle's Committee of Democratic Defense included a number of prominent members of Herut in France. In New York, meanwhile, an anti-De Gaulle, pro-Soustelle, and pro-Israel newsletter was published with funds provided by Abe Spanel, the former head of the International Latex Corporation.

So much for the proposition that all was sweetness and light between De Gaulle and Israel in the period 1958-1967.

I strongly suspect that wherever we find Herut/Stern/Etzel gang members at work in the US in the 1950s and 1960s, we are likely to find Angleton not a million miles away.

[Scott Kaiser]

Scott:

I don't have the slightest of what you are talking about in post 42.

In addition to not having read Huckleberry Finn, I have never read your book(s) or anything else you wrote about your father.

What I was talking about was not a direct reference to you, but the general tendency of some people to listen to someone like a former Cuban exile and then take their word for what the person said e.g. Lamar Waldron, Gus Russo, Mellen with Murgado. You know, the guy who said he worshipped Kennedy and then spent the whole interview talking about how RFK hired Bernardo DeTorres to protect his brother and it was Bernardo who was at Odio's door. Or Sergio Arcacha Smith saying to Russo that he never heard of Rose Cheramie. Or Harry Williams telling Waldron that he was meeting with RFK during the California primary to remind him about C Day etc.

I for one do not find any of that very credible, for a lot of different reasons which I will not go into now. But part of it comes from my own experience. You are invited to read my reviews, of Waldron for example, and see if you find me objective or not. I would rather you do that than say I am not objective about your work--when in fact I have never read your work.

I didn't ask you if you read my book, in-fact, I would say my first book was a total disaster, material is missing, material that I didn't approve was added. And, I subsequently left out a ton of information just to get the feel of how all this was suppose to work. I would recommend reading my update when it becomes available.

I completely agree with you when it comes to credibility. I'm not sure where you're coming from when you keep relating to "my work" or "my book(s)", and you never read them, however, I can say the same, I've never read any of your work, book(s) or reviews, but I did correct you on whose report Kennedy used that led to NSAM 263.

I believe it works for everyone doesn't it? Kinda like Posner blaming Oswald for the assassination, or others who believe LBJ did it, or Ion Pacera who believes the KGB did it, or Castro did it, or Harrleson did it, or Menninger who released his theory that Hickey did it, or Lester's book, that little green men did it, or Waldron or Blakley who believe the mob did it, for Christ sake some even believe Joe DiMaggio and Frank Sinatra did it.

[Scott Kaiser]

Oh dear.

Neff's so childishly dishonest it almost feels unkind to expose his wretched attempts to deceive. But I simply can't deny myself the pleasure.

Anyone interested in a quick, honest and reasonably detailed guide to De Gaulle's attempts to rebalance France's relations with the Middle East, not excluding his moves to curtail Franco-Israeli nuclear collaboration- which had additional motivations, of course - might usefully read Michael Curtis' introduction to the 2004 Transaction edition of Raymond Aron's De Gaulle, Israel and the Jews, a book originally published in 1969 (or thereabouts). Pages xxiv-xxvii of Curtis' intro, reproduced in his 2013 book, Jews, Antisemitism, and the Middle East (pp104-106, also Transaction) contains a good beginner's guide to the changes in policy and personnel that De Gaulle initiated upon his return to power in 1958. The big push to break with Israel over Dimona commenced two years later, in mid-1960. It's easy enough to find online, and demolishes the nonsense posted above.

Avner Cohen's Israel and the Bomb adds a piece to the jigsaw by telling us: "Under Charles De Gaulle, however, French policy changed, and it appears that by 1963, when the reactor was near completion, France imposed major constraints on supplying uranium to Dimona."

Michael Karpin's The Bomb in the Basement: How Israel Went Nuclear and what that Means for the World (2006), contains a chapter with the title "De Gaulle Throws a Monkey Wrench in the Works".

Or try this:

Israel used many subterfuges to conceal activity at Dimona. It called the plant a manganese plant, and rarely, a textile plant. The United States by the end of 1958 had taken pictures of the project from U-2 spy planes, and identified the site as a probable reactor complex. The concentration of Frenchmen was also impossible to hide from ground observers. In 1960, before the reactor was operating, France, now under the leadership of de Gaulle, reconsidered and decided to suspend the project. After several months of negotiation, they reached an agreement in November that allowed the reactor to proceed if Israel promised not to make nuclear weapons and to announce the project to the world. Work on the plutonium reprocessing plant halted.

Source: THE THIRD TEMPLE'S HOLY OF HOLIES: ISRAEL'S NUCLEAR WEAPONS

Warner D. Farr, LTC, U.S. Army

The Counterproliferation Papers, Future Warfare Series No. 2

USAF Counterproliferation Center

Air War College, Air University

Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama

September 1999

http://fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/farr.htm

De Gaulle had an additional, and distinctly personal, reason for bringing a halt to close co-ordination with Israel: attempts to overthrow and assassinate the General were aided and abetted by Israeli intelligence - using Stern and Etzel gang members or sympathisers - and Zionist networks in America.

As early as March 1961, prior to the Generals' revolt in Algeria, the arrest of Jean Ghenassia, an Algerian Jew and suspected OAS member, prompted charges that he had worked in close liaison with Israeli intelligence officers smuggled into Algeria by submarine in December 1960.

A rash of French newspaper reports in 1961 and 1962 accused Israeli intelligence of support for OAS terrorism, with additional focus on the backing enjoyed by Jacques Soustelle, the head of the political wing of the OAS, allegedly with the blessing of Ben Gurion. Soustelle's Committee of Democratic Defense included a number of prominent members of Herut in France. In New York, meanwhile, an anti-De Gaulle, pro-Soustelle, and pro-Israel newsletter was published with funds provided by Abe Spanel, the former head of the International Latex Corporation.

So much for the proposition that all was sweetness and light between De Gaulle and Israel in the period 1958-1967.

I strongly suspect that wherever we find Herut/Stern/Etzel gang members at work in the US in the 1950s and 1960s, we are likely to find Angleton not a million miles away.

I strongly suspect that wherever we find Herut/Stern/Etzel gang members at work in the US in the 1950s and 1960s, we are likely to find Angleton not a million miles away.

Hi Paul, judging from your Avatar, you look like you've been around since world war one, what makes you think that Angleton wasn't a million miles away, that's kinda far?

[Scott Kaiser]

[quote=Jim DiEugenio]Scott:

I don't have the slightest of what you are talking about in post 42.

In addition to not having read Huckleberry Finn, I have never read your book(s) or anything else you wrote about your father.

What I was talking about was not a direct reference to you, but the general tendency of some people to listen to someone like a former Cuban exile and then take their word for what the person said e.g. Lamar Waldron, Gus Russo, Mellen with Murgado. You know, the guy who said he worshipped Kennedy and then spent the whole interview talking about how RFK hired Bernardo DeTorres to protect his brother and it was Bernardo who was at Odio's door. Or Sergio Arcacha Smith saying to Russo that he never heard of Rose Cheramie. Or Harry Williams telling Waldron that he was meeting with RFK during the California primary to remind him about C Day etc.

I for one do not find any of that very credible, for a lot of different reasons which I will not go into now. But part of it comes from my own experience. You are invited to read my reviews, of Waldron for example, and see if you find me objective or not. I would rather you do that than say I am not objective about your work--when in fact I have never read your work.

I didn't ask you if you read my book, in-fact, I would say my first book was a total disaster, material is missing, material that I didn't approve was added. And, I subsequently left out a ton of information just to get the feel of how all this was suppose to work. I would recommend reading my update when it becomes available.

I completely agree with you when it comes to credibility. I'm not sure where you're coming from when you keep relating to "my work" or "my book(s)", and you never read them, however, I can say the same, I've never read any of your work, book(s) or reviews, but I did correct you on whose report Kennedy used that led to NSAM 263.

I believe it works for everyone doesn't it? Kinda like Posner blaming Oswald for the assassination, or others who believe LBJ did it, or Ion Pacera who believes the KGB did it, or Castro did it, or Harrleson did it, or Menninger who released his theory that Hickey did it, or Lester's book, that little green men did it or Waldron or Blakley who believe the mob did it, for Christ sake man some even believe Joe DiMaggio and Frank Sinatra did it,

Credibility comes from within, it does not discriminate, it starts with telling the truth, and everyone wants to tell the truth. I believe that if the truth becomes boring, then it becomes embellished, however, if you have a good, strong background of truth and can provide documentation along with first witness account, then no one can ever discredit you whether they like you or not, all they can do is pretend to have something on you, but they're to nice to call you out, so they just form an opinion, either way it's a sad situation when folks give up truth to be plunged down a rabbit hole.

[Albert Doyle]

This source is admittedly anti-semitic. I don't necessarily back it, however it does show important facts. Piper died in his 50's.



https://www.johndenugent.com/the-jewish-...and-numec/

"The Vanunu-Piper allegations about Israel will not go away."

.

New Evidence Ties Israel's Nuclear Weapons Program to the New Orleans Connection in the JFK Conspiracy . . .
.
As the second printing of the sixth edition of this book went to press, a source with intimate, high-level knowledge about the NUMEC
nuclear plant in Pennsylvania that smuggled nuclear materiel to Israel (see Chapter 8) provided documentation to Michael Collins Piper
that the family of Edith Rosenwald Stern, a prominent New Orleans Jewish leader, were key financiers behind NUMEC. Mrs. Stern was the closest friend of Clay Shaw, the longtime CIA asset charged by New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison in the JFK conspiracy.
.
Clay Shaw

[Paul Rigby]

I strongly suspect that wherever we find Herut/Stern/Etzel gang members at work in the US in the 1950s and 1960s, we are likely to find Angleton not a million miles away.

Hi Paul, judging from your Avatar, you look like you've been around since world war one, what makes you think that Angleton wasn't a million miles away, that's kinda far?

The small matter of Angleton's control of the CIA's Israel account for over two decades, Scott.

One of the many gaping lacunae in the JFK community's research endeavours is any kind of systematic accounting of what Angleton gave to Israel; and what he received in return.

My photograph, incidentally, was taken by my friend Basil just after an extraordinary encounter with a talking moose head in his Torquay hotel.