Shelley and Lovelady? Are You Sure??

[Albert Doyle]

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[/FONT]Sorry, Albert but, unless Shelley and Lovelady both committed perjury and lied about Gloria Calvery, that CANNOT be Calvery seen running toward the TSBD steps in the Darnell film, as they both clearly stated they did NOT leave the steps until they had spoken to Gloria Calvery ON the steps.

Despite your vivid fantasies about Running Woman speaking to the two men walking down the Elm St. extension, the testimonies say this cannot be Calvery.

Do you believe Shelley and Lovelady committed perjury and lied to the Warren Commission?

I think it is fairly safe to say Lovelady's 3 minute claim is inaccurate because the Gerda Dunkel film shows Shelley and Lovelady walking away as the woman runs up. I can clearly see Shelley pull up and look over to the woman in order to talk to her but she keeps running by so Shelley follows on behind Lovelady.


The more important thing the Dunkel clip shows is Frazier is clearly facing Prayer Man when the woman runs up. If we go to Frazier's testimony he said a woman ran up shouting the president had been shot. He didn't hear her so he asked Sarah Stanton what she said. Stanton replied "I think she said the president had been shot". If you look at the famous Darnell shot of Prayer Man, the woman is running up right when the frame is taken.


You should listen to your journalist friend who said the Depository was an Intel storefront when judging the veracity of statements coming from it. At that point film evidence becomes your only reliable friend...

Do you believe Shelley and Lovelady committed perjury and lied to the Warren Commission?

Pray tell Bob, what possible consequences would they face? How do you know they weren't lying for the Commission? Again, who do you believe? Testimony or your own lying eyes? Dunkel clearly shows a woman running up to the steps from the Grassy Knoll direction.

[Bob Prudhomme]

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[/FONT]Sorry, Albert but, unless Shelley and Lovelady both committed perjury and lied about Gloria Calvery, that CANNOT be Calvery seen running toward the TSBD steps in the Darnell film, as they both clearly stated they did NOT leave the steps until they had spoken to Gloria Calvery ON the steps.

Despite your vivid fantasies about Running Woman speaking to the two men walking down the Elm St. extension, the testimonies say this cannot be Calvery.

Do you believe Shelley and Lovelady committed perjury and lied to the Warren Commission?

I think it is fairly safe to say Lovelady's 3 minute claim is inaccurate because the Gerda Dunkel film shows Shelley and Lovelady walking away as the woman runs up. I can clearly see Shelley pull up and look over to the woman in order to talk to her but she keeps running by so Shelley follows on behind Lovelady.


The more important thing the Dunkel clip shows is Frazier is clearly facing Prayer Man when the woman runs up. If we go to Frazier's testimony he said a woman ran up shouting the president had been shot. He didn't hear her so he asked Sarah Stanton what she said. Stanton replied "I think she said the president had been shot". If you look at the famous Darnell shot of Prayer Man, the woman is running up right when the frame is taken.


You should listen to your journalist friend who said the Depository was an Intel storefront when judging the veracity of statements coming from it. At that point film evidence becomes your only reliable friend...

Do you believe Shelley and Lovelady committed perjury and lied to the Warren Commission?

Pray tell Bob, what possible consequences would they face? How do you know they weren't lying for the Commission? Again, who do you believe? Testimony or your own lying eyes? Dunkel clearly shows a woman running up to the steps from the Grassy Knoll direction.

Like most fanatics, Albert, you have a habit of conveniently overlooking pieces of evidence that contradict your beliefs.

While Shelley's and Lovelady's WC testimony regarding their not leaving the TSBD steps for 3-4 minutes following the last shot can be called into question due to the fact many people have trouble estimating time, the fact remains that both men testified they did NOT leave the TSBD steps UNTIL Gloria Calvery arrived at the steps and relayed the news of the assassination to them.

Your belief that Calvery shouted the news of the assassination to them while they were walking to the rail yards, and she was running to the TSBD steps, has absolutely ZERO evidence to support it, and is nothing more than a fantasy dreamed up by you and others. If you disagree with this view, please post your supporting evidence.

The uncomfortable truth of the matter is that Running Woman has not made it to the TSBD steps in the Darnell film, is obviously going to arrive there AFTER Baker arrives there, and "Shelley" and "Lovelady" are already well away from the steps.

The only way for your fantasy to be true is if Shelley and Lovelady both outright lied about their encounter with Gloria Calvery to the Warren Commission.

[Albert Doyle]

It is clear to me that if the Dunkel clip could be enhanced it would show Gloria Calvery running up to the steps. I mean that people who knew her or Gloria herself could identify her from this clip. What evidence is there of any other woman running up to the steps?

Your belief that Calvery shouted the news of the assassination to them while they were walking to the rail yards, and she was running to the TSBD steps, has absolutely ZERO evidence to support it

Except for seeing it happen right in front of you in the Gerda Dunkel clip. I can see the woman saying something to Shelley. I can see Shelley's more than obvious body language of slowing down and looking over towards the running woman. I can also more than clearly see that the two are undoubtedly Lovelady and Shelley and that they are undoubtedly walking together. To hang up the entire research community on this topic for years is to show a lack of photo analysis skill in my opinion.

The uncomfortable truth of the matter is that Running Woman has not made it to the TSBD steps in the Darnell film, is obviously going to arrive there AFTER Baker arrives there, and "Shelley" and "Lovelady" are already well away from the steps

Which fits what you see in the Dunkel clip perfectly. Calvery said Baker went right up the steps and into the Depository right in front of her. And that's what you see. You are trying to force only the testimony as the rule. Relying on Commission testimony is risky business considering. Meanwhile, who are you going to believe, Commission testimony or your own lying eyes? I would say the Darnell/Couch films are an impartial witness and tell you all you need to know.



What, pray tell, is so inherently unbelievable about someone lying to the Warren Commission of all things? Fantasy? Don't forget who's trying to call Sarah Stanton Lee Harvey Oswald.

[LR Trotter]

Admittedly a discussion area for me, but scarves abound in the area at the time, and possibly a rear view. In any event, images of black, varying shades of gray, and then white. So, BNL is either there, or somewhere else, and that is indisputable. However, his and WHS's testimony indicates he has left the doorway at about that time.

You call yourself a student of assassination research? I think you'd better go back to school, son.

Both Shelley and Lovelady testified to the Warren Commission that they remained on the steps of the TSBD for 3-4 minutes following the third shot, and did NOT leave the steps until after Gloria Calvery had returned to the TSBD steps and given them the news of the assassination.

Gloria Calvery was standing far enough down Elm St., at the time of the assassination, it would have been impossible for her to arrive at the
TSBD steps before Baker.

I am not sure what you are criticizing Mr Prudhomme, but I have doubts about the 3-4 minute estimate by BNL, and believe he is possibly about 2 minutes off. That is my conclusion, whether right or wrong. However, according to DPD Officer Marrion Baker, he was inside the TSBD within about 2 minutes after the DealeyPlaza shooting. But, for the record, do you know the exact time of the mentioned picture? In any event, "admittedly a discussion area for me", is, at least to me, an indication of something less than positive, and, "about that time" is certainly not exact. So, I will deal with my own knowledge, or lack there of, and I have no desire to acknowledge any suggestions by you about my education.

[Albert Doyle]

More like 30 seconds Larry.

[Bob Prudhomme]

Albert Doyle said:

"Which fits what you see in the Dunkel clip perfectly. Calvery said Baker went right up the steps and into the Depository right in front of her. And that's what you see. You are trying to force only the testimony as the rule. Relying on Commission testimony is risky business considering. Meanwhile, who are you going to believe, Commission testimony or your own lying eyes? I would say the Darnell/Couch films are an impartial witness and tell you all you need to know."

REALLY, ALBERT? As far as I know, Gloria Calvery did not testify to the Warren Commission. She made a statement to the FBI on March 19, 1964, and did not say one word about Baker or any other cop.

In other words, you have made up this notion that Calvery claimed to have seen Baker going up the steps and I have caught you in a lie.

Perhaps you would like to share with us where you saw Calvery stating she saw Baker entering the TSBD. In the meantime, I will contact the moderators, and see if disciplinary action for posting false information is not in order here.

[Bob Prudhomme]

Admittedly a discussion area for me, but scarves abound in the area at the time, and possibly a rear view. In any event, images of black, varying shades of gray, and then white. So, BNL is either there, or somewhere else, and that is indisputable. However, his and WHS's testimony indicates he has left the doorway at about that time.

You call yourself a student of assassination research? I think you'd better go back to school, son.

Both Shelley and Lovelady testified to the Warren Commission that they remained on the steps of the TSBD for 3-4 minutes following the third shot, and did NOT leave the steps until after Gloria Calvery had returned to the TSBD steps and given them the news of the assassination.

Gloria Calvery was standing far enough down Elm St., at the time of the assassination, it would have been impossible for her to arrive at the
TSBD steps before Baker.

I am not sure what you are criticizing Mr Prudhomme, but I have doubts about the 3-4 minute estimate by BNL, and believe he is possibly about 2 minutes off. That is my conclusion, whether right or wrong. However, according to DPD Officer Marrion Baker, he was inside the TSBD within about 2 minutes after the DealeyPlaza shooting. But, for the record, do you know the exact time of the mentioned picture? In any event, "admittedly a discussion area for me", is, at least to me, an indication of something less than positive, and, "about that time" is certainly not exact. So, I will deal with my own knowledge, or lack there of, and I have no desire to acknowledge any suggestions by you about my education.

Do you also doubt the testimony of Lovelady and Shelley where they both testified to not having left the TSBD steps until Gloria Calvery arrived at the steps and told them of the assassination?

[Bob Prudhomme]

Albert

You have been reported for posting false and misleading information.

[Albert Doyle]

Albert Doyle said:

"Which fits what you see in the Dunkel clip perfectly. Calvery said Baker went right up the steps and into the Depository right in front of her. And that's what you see. You are trying to force only the testimony as the rule. Relying on Commission testimony is risky business considering. Meanwhile, who are you going to believe, Commission testimony or your own lying eyes? I would say the Darnell/Couch films are an impartial witness and tell you all you need to know."

REALLY, ALBERT? As far as I know, Gloria Calvery did not testify to the Warren Commission. She made a statement to the FBI on March 19, 1964, and did not say one word about Baker or any other cop.

In other words, you have made up this notion that Calvery claimed to have seen Baker going up the steps and I have caught you in a lie.

Perhaps you would like to share with us where you saw Calvery stating she saw Baker entering the TSBD. In the meantime, I will contact the moderators, and see if disciplinary action for posting false information is not in order here.

I read it on the Education Forum. I tried to search for it but there is so much tedious parsing on that site from hair-splitters like Larsen I can't find it. Someone, maybe Miller, posted that there were two witnesses to Baker going up the steps and inside, one was Pauline Sanders and the other was Calvery who was quoted as saying Baker went up the steps right in front of her.


You're being evasive Bob. While I consider Graves an obnoxious gadfly he sees Shelley pull up as well as Calvery in the Dunkel Film. Why don't you? I can see it clear as day and I assume film analysis experts would too. You got very aggressive Bob, but you didn't answer the point of who would that running woman be if it weren't Calvery? While complaining to the moderation (falsely as it would seem) you also avoided my main point. That is, that the timing that is more than apparent in Dunkel shows that this woman is shouting to people as she runs up to the steps. While accusing me of falsely quoting testimony you have used that accusation to avoid the quote from Frazier who said that he was standing next to Sarah Stanton when a woman ran up shouting that the president had been shot. I don't see where you have the right to ignore that the Dunkel clip more than clearly evidences that Calvery is running up precisely at the time that Darnell shows Frazier facing Prayer Man. Frazier's testimony is that he was talking to Sarah Stanton at this specific juncture.



Bob, since you are such a strong proponent of truth and discernment of non-truth I invite you to the ignominious "Bear Pit" where I have shown evidence via the Willis 8, Darnell, and Murray images that Prayer Man cannot be standing on the step. This evidence was so damning to Murphy that James Gordon banned me from the Education Forum instead of following his own claim that he was moderating according to quality of information. It is clear to me that Gordon is a dishonest nitwit who is moderating solely for the political purpose of saving face for Lancer that was foolish enough to give Bart Kamp a research accolade. He banned me because I had out-argued Stancak and disproven his Prayer Man evidence, that he still hasn't been able to answer. If you have a moral aversion to lying I suggest the Prayer Man thread at the Education Forum is a good place to practice it.



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[Albert Doyle]

Do you also doubt the testimony of Lovelady and Shelley where they both testified to not having left the TSBD steps until Gloria Calvery arrived at the steps and told them of the assassination?

You people go to lengths to show that Shelley was Intel, but then feign surprise when the evidence shows up that he wasn't telling the truth.


Why should we disbelieve the film Bob?