Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[James H. Fetzer]

JIM ADDRESSES DAVID LIFTON ABOUT JUDYTH AND ABOUT HARVEY & LEE

You are entitled to your opinion, David, but you have not been studying this exchange and you have a motive that others besides me believe biases your attitude toward Judyth. I not only disagree with you about Judyth but am disappointed in you, not for your claims to fame about your earlier JFK research, which you richly deserve, but your unwillingness to share (what you claim to be) the basis for your skepticism about Judyth--the cassette tape of your one-hour plus conversation with her--which would enable me to confirm or disconfirm the claims you make based upon it, and your unwillingness to declare whether or not you believe in the fanciful story of HARVEY & LEE. If you denounce Judyth because you think she is a "fantasist", which I deny, then surely you should be even more outspoken about John Armstrong, since Judyth--on this forum, at least--had not made a significant impact on the research community, to judge by most of those who have posted here, while Armstrong appears to be something akin to a saint in the minds of many. If, as you maintain, "(you) simply cannot and will not stand idly by and watch someone mess up the historical record by bearing false witness", then your obligation to come clean about HARVEY & LEE must vastly outweigh your obligation to come clean about Judyth, if, as I believe, you do not support the "two Oswald's" theory that is presented there. Before you take too much credit for your moral stance regarding Judyth, where I am confident that you are wrong, you need to face up to your obligation to come clean about HARVEY & Lee, where you might even be right.

[quote name='David Lifton' post='190873' date='Apr 26 2010, 10:11 AM']Kevin Greelee:

I just read your post (#1450, dated 4/21/10) which quotes two of my posts (on the Alt.conspiracy discussion group, now available via Google) --some ten years ago (specifically, one on 10/26/2000, and the other on 12/31/2001). These posts were written at a time not only when my recollections of my March 4 2000, conversation with Judyth were fresh in my mind, but also at a time when I probably had a thick pile of notes and transcript material at hand.

As you correctly quote, Judyth made the following assertions in that March, 2000 phone call:

ITEM: That she co-wrote a science fiction story with Lee Oswald

ITEM: That, to beef up security for Kennedy, Lee fomented the Adlai Stevenson incident in Dallas

ITEM: That she, Judyth, had been offered $1 million by some tabloid for her story

ITEM: That despite her connection with all these events back in 1963, she never heard of the Garrison investigation at the time it was occurring (starting around Feb 1967)

ITEM: That at the "cancer lab" at Dave Ferrie¹s apartment, they "processed" 4,000 mice per month.

ITEM: That she arranged to check Lee out of work (and so that's why the time clock records, to be found in the 26 volumes)
appear as they do. (To anyone interested: There are certain clusters of times,which--IMHO-- Judyth explains by inserting herself into a "story" built around that data).

ITEM: That in connection with her alleged knowledge of Lee's visit to lecture at the Jesuit college at Spring Hill, Alabama,
that Robert Kennedy made a phone call there. (Yes, dear reader, blink twice if you must, but no, you're not imagining what I just wrote:
in the March, 2000 phone call, Judyth alleged that Robert Kennedy, the Attorney General of the United States,
called the Jesuit College at which Oswald spoke, and for some undefined reason, in connection with LHO's visit there).

ITEM: That she (and her co-workers in Florida) "knew" the
assassination was going to happen, and so prepared to watch it on TV.

As you noted, the links to the full text of my two posts were:

for October 26,2000:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...ca7348809?hl=en

and for Dec 31 2001

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...c1cb707a4?hl=en

When I clicked on the links you provided, they came right up on my screen.

* * *

Again, thanks for your post, and for the URL links that bring these two posts--from 10 years ago--right onto the computer screen. I had completely forgotten about these details, or that I had analyzed the conversation I had had with Judyth in such detail, and, finally, that I had written these posts. Its hard to believe that ten years have passed!

And of course you are right: with regard to my own skepticism about Judyth and her various claims, it is incorrect for anyone to focus just on the "Cancun" matter as "the reason" I rejected her entire story (as if that was the only problem!). As these posts amply demonstrate, it was much more than her claim that Lee Oswald said that they (she and Judyth) would/should meet in Cancun (the resort which did not then exist, aside from whether some primitive village by that name did exist) that lay behind my own conclusions about Judyth--i.e., that she lacked credibility, could not/should not be taken seriously, and my own conclusions that she was a fantasist.

One other point: I am not saying any of these things to hurt anyone individually. Its just that I have spent too much time on the Kennedy case connecting the dots, and attempting to do real research--and believe me, that is hard enough--and so when some intruder enters the picture, claiming that they were “on the grassy knoll,” or “in the autopsy room” or—in this instance—in the life of Lee Oswald, (who was, obviously, a major player in this affair, even if he was framed for a crime he did not commit) I must raise my hand and say “I object.” It is easy to argue about the evidence with someone with whose theories I disagree. But I simply cannot and will not stand idly by and watch someone mess up the historical record by bearing false witness.

DSL
4/26/10; 2 AM
Los Angeles, CA[/quote]

[James H. Fetzer]

JIM APPEALS TO JACK TO STOP A CAMPAIGN THAT IS DISCREDITING HIMSELF

Jack,

Ed Haslam spend more than a decade doing research to track down what happened to
Mary Sherman. Time after time, on this forum, during this thread, claims that Judyth
has made, which appeared initially to be very implausible, have turned out to be true.
In post #1583, Judyth even provided a citation about the common use of marmosets:



"The common marmoset (Callithrix jacchus) is a small, nonendangered New World primate that is native to
Brazil and has been used extensively in biomedical research. Historically the common marmoset has been used
in neuroscience, reproductive biology, infectious disease, and behavioral research. Recently, the species has been
used increasingly in drug development and safety assessment. Advantages relate to size, cost, husbandry, and
biosafety issues as well as unique physiologic differences that may be used in model development. Availability
and ease of breeding in captivity suggest that they may represent an alternative species to more traditional
nonhuman primates. The marmoset models commonly used in biomedical research are presented, with
emphasis on those that may provide an alternative to traditional nonhuman primate species."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14524414

Again, in post #1569, I pointed out that, although her claims about Lee's "reading list" seemed far-fetched, she was right:

In a paragraph below in my response to Bernice, I made the following observation about Lee's reading list:

Other aspects of her story may involve embellishments, such as recollecting the details of conversations they
had on various occasions. I certainly agree that the "reading list" Judyth provided appears to be a bit much,
where it reads more like a "wish list" than actual reading by the man who was killed in Dallas. Yet, even here,
Judyth has some support for what she has to tell us in the form of a report by Marina about what Lee read.

Time after time, points she has made that seemed initially implausible have turned out to be true. Lee's list,
no matter how implausible, was substantiated by the FBI and became a formal document in the hearings:



So I think we have one more illustration of the dramatic difference it makes when claims that initially appear
to be implausible nevertheless turn out to be true. Once again, Judyth has been vindicated, where what she
contributed to the previous post was blurbs about the contents of those book. I have known Doug Weldon to
be fair-minded in the past. I would like to have some indication that he is willing to respond to new evidence!

And in post #1651, I pointed out that the theory of HARVEY & LEE is, if anything, even less "logical" than Judyth's story:

SOME REFLECTIONS ON THE APPEAL TO WHAT IS "LOGICAL" AND WHAT IS NOT

Truth can be stranger than fiction. When you look where you've been, sometimes
you had no idea where you were going. Judyth was talented at cancer research.
She was lured to New Orleans by Alton Ochsner. There was a problem with the
polio vaccine, which had to be treated covertly to avoid alarming the public. Dr.
Mary Sherman was engaged in research there. The experiments did involve mice
and monkeys. David Ferrie and others were involved in conducting that research.
It involved the use of a linear particle accelerator. Someone had to have assisted
her. Judyth and Lee were hired by Riley's on the same day. Judyth kept the time
cards and other records for Oswald. Anna Lewis has testified that she and David,
her husband, even "double-dated" with Judyth and Lee. Mary Sherman was killed,
apparently using a linear particle accelerator. The death scene at her apartment
was staged. Ochsner did inoculate his grandchildren, killing one, while inducing
polio in the other. Judyth does appear to have been summarily sacked after she
protested the use of a prisoner in a (fatal) experiment without informed consent.
David Ferrie appears to have been silenced; and Ruby, too, using the bio-weapon.
And a second "Judyth Vary Baker" was used to impersonate the real Judyth Vary.

What could be a greater stretch than the idea of "two Oswalds", both having the
same name, one called "Harvey", the other "Lee", who even attended the same
schools, though not at the same time, where one was born in Hungary, physically
unimposing but intellectually able, who spoke fluent Russian but could not drive,
while the other had a propensity for violence, could drive but could not speak any
Russian and who had no interest in political philosophy or matters intellectual,
both of whom had mothers by the same name, where one of them ("Lee") lost
a tooth at Beauregard Junior High School, but Lillian Murret, the aunt of the
other ("Harvey"), paid for his dental bill, where his brother, Robert, who looks
exactly like him, is not supposed to be related genetically and who could have
effortlessly impersonated him did not, even though, after the assassination, he
would give lectures and publish a book falsely blaming his brother for a crime
he did not commit, where not only Aunt Lillian but Robert, Marguerite, and
Marina all knew of the existence of both "Harvey" and "Lee", even though none
of them ever uttered a peep! Neither of these stories is "logical" in the sense
Jack intends. Yet, I submit, at least one of these stories appears to be true.

But, of course, as you demonstrate with every post, not only are you unwilling
to read DR. MARY'S MONKEY so you could be brought up-to-speed on some of
the most basic aspects of the case--where you seem to pride yourself on your
ignorance--but time after time, when one or another of your attacks upon her
has proven to be misguided--where you must have posted close to a hundred
by now, none of which appears to have been well-founded--you are not even
willing to concede that you were wrong--not about marmosets, not about the
reading list, not about the "index" in John's book, not about the wrong date of
the founding of the Warren Commission, not about the story of "Lee"'s missing
tooth, not about Judyth's eye-color study, not about her observations regarding
photographs upon which you have relied to make the case for "two Oswalds"--
the list goes on and on, Jack. You are not even willing to concede that HARVEY
& LEE presents a theory that is even more implausible on its face than Judyth's
story. Yet you persist in repeating ignorant claims that you would not make if
you had read Ed's book and attacking Judyth without acknowledging when she
has been right. These are not the signs of responsible research, Jack, but the
signs of someone whose commitment to a predetermined conclusion has far,
far exceeded his rational response to logic and evidence. Lifton can't save you,
either, because he confronts problems of credibility of his own. And where will
you be when he finally comes clean about HARVEY & LEE? I am sorry to say it,
Jack, but you are discrediting yourself with every post. Relative to the method
of tenacity, in contrast with scientific reasoning, you are, alas, the poster child!

Jim

[quote name='Jack White' post='190885' date='Apr 26 2010, 01:49 PM']
Thanks, David. I find the most incredible of the items you list is that JVB was unaware
of the Garrison investigation back in 1967. Every newspaper and magazine and TV
newscast carried details daily. I even bought 3 month subscriptions to the New Orleans
Item and the New Orleans Times-Picayune to get fuller coverage. At that time the
assassination was fresh in everyone's minds, many of the players were still alive, and
even the grocery story tabloids had front page coverage every week. Knowing about
the CONTROVERSIAL Garrison trial was unavoidable. Garrison was even a guest on
the Carson Tonight show.

Someone who had personal acquaintances with David Ferrie, Guy Banister, Clay
Shaw, Lee Oswald, Reily Coffee, et al had to be living on another planet to be UNAWARE
of the Clay Shaw Trial. UNBELIEVABLE!

Jack

[quote name='David Lifton' post='190873' date='Apr 26 2010, 09:11 AM']
Kevin Greelee:

I just read your post (#1450, dated 4/21/10) which quotes two of my posts (on the Alt.conspiracy discussion group, now available via Google) --some ten years ago (specifically, one on 10/26/2000, and the other on 12/31/2001). These posts were written at a time not only when my recollections of my March 4 2000, conversation with Judyth were fresh in my mind, but also at a time when I probably had a thick pile of notes and transcript material at hand.

As you correctly quote, Judyth made the following assertions in that March, 2000 phone call:

ITEM: That she co-wrote a science fiction story with Lee Oswald

ITEM: That, to beef up security for Kennedy, Lee fomented the Adlai Stevenson incident in Dallas

ITEM: That she, Judyth, had been offered $1 million by some tabloid for her story

ITEM: That despite her connection with all these events back in 1963, she never heard of the Garrison investigation at the time it was occurring (starting around Feb 1967)

ITEM: That at the "cancer lab" at Dave Ferrie¹s apartment, they "processed" 4,000 mice per month.

ITEM: That she arranged to check Lee out of work (and so that's why the time clock records, to be found in the 26 volumes)
appear as they do. (To anyone interested: There are certain clusters of times,which--IMHO-- Judyth explains by inserting herself into a "story" built around that data).

ITEM: That in connection with her alleged knowledge of Lee's visit to lecture at the Jesuit college at Spring Hill, Alabama,
that Robert Kennedy made a phone call there. (Yes, dear reader, blink twice if you must, but no, you're not imagining what I just wrote:
in the March, 2000 phone call, Judyth alleged that Robert Kennedy, the Attorney General of the United States,
called the Jesuit College at which Oswald spoke, and for some undefined reason, in connection with LHO's visit there).

ITEM: That she (and her co-workers in Florida) "knew" the
assassination was going to happen, and so prepared to watch it on TV.

As you noted, the links to the full text of my two posts were:

for October 26,2000:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...ca7348809?hl=en

and for Dec 31 2001

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...c1cb707a4?hl=en

When I clicked on the links you provided, they came right up on my screen.

* * *

Again, thanks for your post, and for the URL links that bring these two posts--from 10 years ago--right onto the computer screen. I had completely forgotten about these details, or that I had analyzed the conversation I had had with Judyth in such detail, and, finally, that I had written these posts. Its hard to believe that ten years have passed!

And of course you are right: with regard to my own skepticism about Judyth and her various claims, it is incorrect for anyone to focus just on the "Cancun" matter as "the reason" I rejected her entire story (as if that was the only problem!). As these posts amply demonstrate, it was much more than her claim that Lee Oswald said that they (she and Judyth) would/should meet in Cancun (the resort which did not then exist, aside from whether some primitive village by that name did exist) that lay behind my own conclusions about Judyth--i.e., that she lacked credibility, could not/should not be taken seriously, and my own conclusions that she was a fantasist.

One other point: I am not saying any of these things to hurt anyone individually. Its just that I have spent too much time on the Kennedy case connecting the dots, and attempting to do real research--and believe me, that is hard enough--and so when some intruder enters the picture, claiming that they were “on the grassy knoll,” or “in the autopsy room” or—in this instance—in the life of Lee Oswald, (who was, obviously, a major player in this affair, even if he was framed for a crime he did not commit) I must raise my hand and say “I object.” It is easy to argue about the evidence with someone with whose theories I disagree. But I simply cannot and will not stand idly by and watch someone mess up the historical record by bearing false witness.

DSL
4/26/10; 2 AM
Los Angeles, CA[/quote]
[/quote]

[James H. Fetzer]

PSY OPS EXPERT REPLIES TO JACK WHITE ABOUT JUDYTH VARY BAKER

Jack White has made the assertion that the the idea that Judyth Vary was so important as a witness to the JFK Assassination to have long term psyops brought against her for so many years does not makes sense, because if she was that important the the cia would have terminated her.

Jack is a world renown expert on photo and video analysis and there are not many other individuals in the world that can match his skill level in analyzing photos and videos. His research work and conclusions about the fake videos and photos of the "moon landings" and the "z film" are notably rock solid and he should be highly commended for this superior work that has stood the test of time.

But like most folks, especially those not involved in intel work or who do not have good contacts with those inside intel, as far as "extra-judicial murders" go, he knows very little on the subject as to why they occur, by whom and how they are justified and in what situations they are chosen as the "with prejudice" i.e. "final option" for sanction.

Here's some general background in response to Jack's assertion. Government sanctioned murders have always occurred at times and this has been true within the USA too. This can involve secret coups de etat where top political leaders are terminated such as presidents Lincoln and JFK. It can also include the murder of other top political figures and public figures such as Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Sen. John Tower, Malcolm X, Sen. Paul Wellstone, Gov. Carnahan, etc. It has been estimated that worldwide up to about one-half of all airline crashes are instigated in order to get from one to several individuals on that targeted flight. Thus this business of state sanction murder is a very nasty, cruel and inhuman business. It is the epitome of existential thinking and the leo straussian edict that "the ends justify the means", which is the mainstream of almost every intel agency in the world and almost every military organization. This is the inhuman, evil and disgusting ideology of the likes of lenin, hitler, stalin and mao and it has become the central ideology of our 37 intel agencies, which in and of itself should be very, very alarming to say the least.

Govt sanction murders can also include troublesome witnesses to many government scandals such as Danny Cassalaro of inslaw fame, Ian Spiro and his whole family, the DC Madam Palfry, and many, many more over the years including numerous important witnesses to the JFK Assassination. In recent times since WW2 with the advent of our "national security state" after the roswell crash and the national security act of 1947, there has usually been what is called a "signed finding" to authorize these murders, and the justification is to preserve the national security of the USA. It was rumored that JFK's murder was authorized by such a finding signed by LBJ as vice president in collusion with the jcs and j. edgar mary after it was determined that JFK was a national security risk because of his alleged drug use with mary meyer, his going soft on cuba, his conciliatory discussions with Khrushchev and his intentions to disband the cia and withdraw from vietnam.

These state sanction murders have been carried out in many ways by many groups. There have been quite a few sanctioned murders by state authorities and various federal agencies acting rogue on behalf of certain politicians and large corporate entities, some of whom have been privatized as agents of national security. And over the years since Vietnam, up to 50% of all intel functions have been privatized to shadow govt subcontractors, which makes their work even more deniable.

A former chitown police officer once told me that back in the 60's when certain high political figures wanted a "job" done they would make a phone call to a certain individual at the "treasury dept" would would see that the job was completed and then payment or favors would be made later on.

J. edgar mary had his own private group of hitmen, most mob related. It was called the "squad" and was written about in a book by Michael Milan, titled The Squad. Milan's book is very well done and unfortunately very accurate. At the end of WW2 the US military used several special squads to kill certain japanese war criminals and certain nazi war criminals that survived and escaped capture. This is well documented in several good sources.

The cia has always had special murder squads such as op40 out of room 40 langely modeled after England's room 40 in WW2 and so do many of our at least 37 intel agencies. This group op40 included cubans and one doesn't have to dig too deep to find out their actual names. Nixon and others were heavily involved in running this group. Op40 was of course alleged to have been deeply involved in the JFK Assassination. Operation Pegasus was a deep black special op force which also did many deep black covert ops and later on did special "jobs" after it was hijacked by those that murdered JFK. It typically operated by the authority of signed presidential findings and was responsible for taking drastic measures to protect the national security when no other options were available or had failed. This group supposedly answered directly to potus alone. Typically a presidential letter signed by potus was given to each op saying that if in the process of fulfilling their assignment they broke some laws, immunity was hereby granted under national security. After JFK's death Pegasus was allegedly hijacked by the same sinister forces that murdered him and was allegedly used for protection of illegal govt drug and weapon trafficking.

When state sanctioned jobs are done, the local police are typically contacted by the proper higher authority and instructed to stand down, which they always do. When a designated special high surveillance team which has typically spent at least several days stalking the target to appraise easiest access and means, then it will institute the op. The specific means can be selected from a broad range of tasks involving high tech poisons, pulsed beam microwaves, or actual physical attack. Any physical attack can be made to look as a suicide or a death from natural causes as in the case of william colby. In some cases where it is considered important, a target can be induced to write a suicide letter after certain convincing arguments are presented such as if you don't cooperate we will go after your kids, spouse, relatives, etc. And drug injections, beatings or torture may be used to soften a target up. Some attacks are intended to be savage and grotesque as a warning to others not to talk. One famous case involving this kind of action was the alleged "suicide" of Gary Webb, who supposedly shot himself in the face twice with a shotgun. Absurd circumstances like agriculture inspector marshall's alleged suicide where he was shot five times with a bolt action rifle is another example of a job designed to get the intended "no talk" message across. The klintons of mena, arkansas drug fame were notorious for being surrounded by many absurd and grotesque dixie mob murders like this framed by local authorities as suicide including the "boys on the track" and vince foster.

After the JFK Assassination, the dixie mob and the cubans were allegedly responsible for some of the most savage killings which were to be used to make an example to frighten the others to keep quiet about what they knew. The cia has done a lot of the killings but often uses assets that are deniable. Some however have been trained at the farm, and these usually kill in foreign lands not inside the USA. But the other intel agencies have done their share and a whole other subject is the foreign intel agencies which are sometimes allowed to do their jobs with a wink and a nod by authorities who many times provide cover.

Since 9/11 and the patriot act, these state ordered killings are no longer declared as extra-judicial within intel, the military and the govt. They are now considered to be legal under "national emergency status" which our country is supposedly in at least that is what various recent so called attorney generals and govt lawyers have declared. And this fits well with the govt's novel position that torture of "enemy combatants" even if they are women and young children is okay even if it means crushing as young child's testicles as one top govt just-us dept attorney declared.

Most US govt assassinations nowadays are character assassinations done in the major mass media. It is usually not necessary to resort to murder, however if the need arises after other venues have been exhausted you can be sure that US intel will respond accordingly.

Now how does this background relate to Judyth Vary? After the JFK Assassination, she was quiet and was not considered a threat because it was assumed that she was too afraid to talk. But she has likely been closely monitored for many years. The usual strategy is to "retain" some important witnesses in a "freeze dried" state for later activation. This will seem very strange to the uninformed, but here is how it actually works. To freeze dry an important witness, the agency makes sure that they are mildly harassed and kept down in a weakened conflicted state, usually making certain that they are somehow induced to appear discredited, kooky or marginalized from family, friends and mainstream society in general.

Then at a later time they will may be activated and brought out of their "freeze dried" state to be allowed and/or empowered deliver their payload of evidence should that be desired as it often is at a certain specified time depending on intel's overall goals. A target can be freeze dried over a long period of time by utilizing govt agencies such as the IRS, city real estate taxing authorities, local police, arranged neighbors, employers, other govt agencies, and corporate interests to keep the target stalked, surveilled and harassed and thereby maintained in an ongoing weakened state until such time of conversion back to a real PERSON again. Note "PERSON" is a legal concept you can research in Black's legal dictionary and it has a special legal meaning.

Could this be what is now occurring with Judyth Vary? Is she being taken out of a previously induced freeze dried state and is this being done on purpose by a certain intel faction? And why in the world would a certain faction of intel actually want an important witness that was suppressed for many years to come forth with important evidence proving government complicity in the JFK Assassination, its cover up and other serious associated crimes, some of which appear to be ongoing and even more prominent now? Is here an intel faction that want the citizens to realize their govt is a rogue criminal and wants the citizens to lose all respect for it? Could this be a means to motivate the public to support the formation of a new world govt perhaps?

Not all factions or members of intel are evil. There are some good guys, actually quite a few, and they fight the system (i.e. beast or monster) as best they can. Sometimes they use this freeze dried with later activation process to attain their own goals such as exposure of evidence to help push an agency or the govt to a less evil status. They may unleash the activation part of the process and send it off on a tangent they think is healthy for the society and one that will help slay the beast while allowing the re-emergence of Constitutional govt again (typically this is called a rear guard restoration action).

All govts of the world lie continually and do much evil while also delivering intermittent good overall such as social order. In order for any current govt to be able to rule over the evil of man that govt must be able and willing to be more vicious and savage than any entity that challenges them, otherwise they won't survive as a self governing entity. And topically they must feed off of their subordinates they rule over in order to have enough power to function as a beast. And be clear about it the US govt was usurped from the people by special interest groups and offshore int'l banking conglomerates many years ago, entities who have trashed the US Constitution. Unless the citizens of the US take back their country it cannot once again function as a Republic the way it was designed to by our Founding Fathers. The problem is that with the US victory in WW2 and the 1947 formation of the national security state, the credo "national security" has allowed the shadow govt to become a wealth and liberty consuming out of control beast-monster, invoking national security as a false cover for the most criminal acts acts imaginable, the trashing of the US Constitution and the formation of a nazified police state which is becoming so powerful that it is almost impossible for the common man to take back his country.

Here is the answer to Jack White's assertion and it involves "contrarian" thinking that is very difficult for the uninformed to understand or comprehend in its fullest meaning. One of the most important principals of intel is the "controlled leak", that is, leaking of the truth exposing govt corruption at the time of intel's choice. Now, it is feasible and understandable that a controlled leak of the Judyth Vary history and evidence when instituted at the appropriate time and manner could achieve certain desired intel goals. It could allow the public to believe the truth that the govt killed JFK and covered it up, that Oswald actually was a patsy, and that there was a top secret bioweapon research in New Orleans involving Ochsner, and that the govt was responsible for allowing simian SV-40 virus contaminants to remain in the polio vaccine and other vaccines. The public would then be allowed to BELIEVE that, but not allowed to KNOW that for sure, since the major mass media will never report is as an established scientific fact but only as conspiracy their or conjecture, unless a certain "critical mass" is reached and certain intel factions give it a wink and a nod and allows it to become a mainstream media talking point.

Strange as this seems, this fits well with the over policy and goals of intel which is to generate massive cognitive dissonance wherein the public feels and believes that the govt did all these bad things, but can never know it for sure. This is part of their "king's new clothes" policy. In order to climb the corp/govt/defense food chain, one must acknowledge the king's new clothes even though deep down inside they fear the truth which could transform them overnight to a "man without a country" and an "outsider". One must comply or they cannot climb the food chain and will be ostracized from normal society. Thus we have a nation where most of mainstream society is living in a state of generalized denial. This freezes the citizens up from getting involved in their govt to any meaningful Constitutional extant and usually causes them to go away silently in "quiet desperation".

So, it is certainly possible and plausible that Judyth Vary was "freeze dried" and is now being activated in order for her story and history to be used for certain Intel purposes. However, when this is done, other associated intel factions may have their own agenda and may attempt to take her story from Believing to KNOWING, that is from belief to fact by creating enough critical mass in certain "friendly major mass media" to force that transition for the overall betterment of society.

So to respond to Jack White's assertion, there was no need for intel to murder Judyth Vary after the assassination because she wasn't talking and posed no threat at that time and because she was probably put into a "freeze dried" state and kept there to be used later on. Now she is apparently being taken out of that state and coming into her own and speaking out and writing about her history and what she knows first hand from the early 1960's and the time around the JFK Assassination. Could there be a certain good intel faction that has hijacked her status and is allowing her story to be used to actually help society change for the good? It may be more likely than you think possible.

[James H. Fetzer]

JIM REPLIES TO DEAN HAGERMAN ABOUT TRUTH AND JUDYTH VARY BAKER

Judyth eventually sees all the posts on this thread. She has been traveling and will
catch up in the next few days. Your suggestion--that most who are posting do not
seem to believe Judyth--does not mean her story is not true. Indeed, there is much
evidence that supports her, including research by Nigel Turner, Ed Haslam, the crew
at "60 Minutes", Howard Platzman, Dean Hartwell, and many others. As Dean aptly
explained some time back, I have been extremely frustrated to expend so much time
and effort to bring you Judyth's story only to discover that most of those posting on
this forum are not reading or studying the evidence, including DR. MARY'S MONKEY.

Even Jack White, whom I regard as an old and dear friend, has made post after post
based on simple ignorance: of where Ferrie lived, of the location of his apartment as
opposed to the "Little Lab", of the location of the linear particle accelerator, of nature
of the wounds incurred by Mary Sherman, of the lab animals that were being use for
cancer research, and much, much more. Frankly, I expected more from at least some
of those who have posted here, including Jack but also including you. Like many of the
rest of those who have been most critical of Judyth, you seem to derive satisfaction as
the member of a group, where many of you appear to derive a sense of satisfaction in
belittling the evidence, attacking Judyth, and taking whacks at me, over and over again.

A book about 9/11, STRANGER THAN FICTION, which was the subject of my program
tonight, describes this as "the lemming phenomenon", which strikes me a correct. As
the social phenomenon of standing with the group in conformity with the most popular
views, the lemming phenomenon disregards that popularity does not determine truth.
No one who knows me would be surprised that I have no taken this lying down. There
is too much evidence on Judyth's side to be so casually dismissive. Even you, Dean,
have been looking for an easy out. In spite of my repeated entreaties, my impression
is that you have yet to read DR. MARY'S MONKEY, even though you profess to be some-
one who admires my work. Words are cheap, Dean, and until you show me that you
have a better grasp of the evidence than Jack, for example, I can no longer respect you.

I should explain that his has nothing to do with whether or not you ultimately believe in
Judyth. That is a conclusion that each of us had to determine for themselves. My point
is that, unless you have considered the evidence that I have identified, over and over
again, including my blogs about Judyth, the YouTube interviews I have conducted, my
program with Ed Haslam, which has long been posted on my radio program's archives
and on my blogs at http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com, you don't have the right to have
an opinion about Judyth--at least, not one that qualifies as "rational". I spent all those
years teaching students how to think things through, and I am acutely disappointed so
many who have made posts couldn't have passed a freshman course in critical thinking.
You have opinions, but without reviewing the evidence, they can't qualify as good ones.

It pains me to be forced to be critical of old friends like Jack and strong supporters like
you, Dean, but, as I explained to Bernice, among others, if friendships takes precedence
over truth, then there is no truth, only friendships. Reread what Dean Hartwell has done
such an excellent job of explaining. Judyth will have the chance to address these issues
just as she has others. But I have found Jack to be a reliable anti-authority on questions
related to Judyth. If he were right about this one, it would be the first time. So, based on
past experience, I wouldn't get my hopes up. And if you even expect to make a serious
contribution to assassination research, you are going to have to do better at research. In
my opinion, like so many others on this thread, you think you can know which side is up
by listening to others. You may have friends, but you appear to be far removed from truth.

[quote name='Dean Hagerman' post='190942' date='Apr 27 2010, 01:34 AM']
[quote name='Jack White' post='190885' date='Apr 26 2010, 01:49 PM']
Thanks, David. I find the most incredible of the items you list is that JVB was unaware
of the Garrison investigation back in 1967. Every newspaper and magazine and TV
newscast carried details daily. I even bought 3 month subscriptions to the New Orleans
Item and the New Orleans Times-Picayune to get fuller coverage. At that time the
assassination was fresh in everyone's minds, many of the players were still alive, and
even the grocery story tabloids had front page coverage every week. Knowing about
the CONTROVERSIAL Garrison trial was unavoidable. Garrison was even a guest on
the Carson Tonight show.

Someone who had personal acquaintances with David Ferrie, Guy Banister, Clay
Shaw, Lee Oswald, Reily Coffee, et al had to be living on another planet to be UNAWARE
of the Clay Shaw Trial. UNBELIEVABLE!

Jack[/quote]

Jack

This is a great point!

Jim did you miss this? If you did could you please forward it to or make her aware of this post please?

You are on the ball Jack

Jim keeps saying that you should stop because you are discrediting yourself, you are not discrediting yourself in any way in this thread

The only person I see being discredited is Judyth, and Jim is it odd to you that only a small handful of people support Judyth in this thread while a huge number of researchers and students of the case do not believe her in this thread?

Do you wonder why that is?

It is because the affair with LHO NEVER happened

NEVER

If it did happen and Judyth can prove it to me (and I mean really prove it not all this garbage that she has posted for us to take as facts) then I will never post on any JFK forums for the rest of my life

That is a promise from me to you Jim
[/quote]

[James H. Fetzer]

Jack,

Why are you running away from a simple question, when you originated it?
You have insisted, over and over again, that Judyth's story is not "logical",
because it involves so many elements that you regard as implausible. But
surely you can admit the same is true of the story of "Harvey" and "Lee".
It, too, has many initially implausible elements. You insist that I have to
read HARVEY & LEE, which I have purchased and have begun to read. I
have encouraged you to read DR. MARY'S MONKEY, which you refuse to
purchase and avow you will never read! In both cases, the stories have
so many "implausible" elements that unless you become immersed in the
evidence, you can't make sense of them. What kind of a researcher does
that: excludes what a fellow student recommends as essential to under-
stand the case they are both engaged in studying? Tell me, Jack, since
that is the kind of "researcher" you have become--one who is unwilling
to consider some of the most important evidence about this very case.

Jim

SOME REFLECTIONS ON THE APPEAL TO WHAT IS "LOGICAL" AND WHAT IS NOT

Truth can be stranger than fiction. When you look where you've been, sometimes
you had no idea where you were going. Judyth was talented at cancer research.
She was lured to New Orleans by Alton Ochsner. There was a problem with the
polio vaccine, which had to be treated covertly to avoid alarming the public. Dr.
Mary Sherman was engaged in research there. The experiments did involve mice
and monkeys. David Ferrie and others were involved in conducting that research.
It involved the use of a linear particle accelerator. Someone had to have assisted
her. Judyth and Lee were hired by Riley's on the same day. Judyth kept the time
cards and other records for Oswald. Anna Lewis has testified that she and David,
her husband, even "double-dated" with Judyth and Lee. Mary Sherman was killed,
apparently using a linear particle accelerator. The death scene at her apartment
was staged. Ochsner did inoculate his grandchildren, killing one, while inducing
polio in the other. Judyth does appear to have been summarily sacked after she
protested the use of a prisoner in a (fatal) experiment without informed consent.
David Ferrie appears to have been silenced; and Ruby, too, using the bio-weapon.
And a second "Judyth Vary Baker" was used to impersonate the real Judyth Vary.

What could be a greater stretch than the idea of "two Oswalds", both having the
same name, one called "Harvey", the other "Lee", who even attended the same
schools, though not at the same time, where one was born in Hungary, physically
unimposing but intellectually able, who spoke fluent Russian but could not drive,
while the other had a propensity for violence, could drive but could not speak any
Russian and who had no interest in political philosophy or matters intellectual,
both of whom had mothers by the same name, where one of them ("Lee") lost
a tooth at Beauregard Junior High School, but Lillian Murret, the aunt of the
other ("Harvey"), paid for his dental bill, where his brother, Robert, who looks
exactly like him, is not supposed to be related genetically and who could have
effortlessly impersonated him did not, even though, after the assassination, he
would give lectures and publish a book falsely blaming his brother for a crime
he did not commit, where not only Aunt Lillian but Robert, Marguerite, and
Marina all knew of the existence of both "Harvey" and "Lee", even though none
of them ever uttered a peep! Neither of these stories is "logical" in the sense
Jack intends. Yet, I submit, at least one of these stories appears to be true.

[quote name='Jack White' post='190970' date='Apr 27 2010, 03:50 AM']
[quote name='Greg Burnham' post='190907' date='Apr 26 2010, 05:30 PM']
[quote name='Barb Junkkarinen' post='190902' date='Apr 26 2010, 09:13 AM']

[snip]...

Bizarre. LHO writing in the margins of her book would establish she knew him. Just how/why you would think it would automatically establish anything beyond that ... like working in some secret Ferrie kitchen cancer bioweapon lab is nonsensical. [snip]...[/quote]

Barb,

While I agree with you that even if the above item is shown to be Oswald's writing it does not prove all of her other claims are true. However, why are you asking for this handwriting verification if its only purpose is to substantiate that which you have already conceded based on other evidence? If you have already conceded the high probability that they knew each other based on their concurrent employment at Reily's, why ask for this exercise in futility since, as you say, it won't prove anything beyond that which you already concede anyway?
[/quote]

Why must we ASSUME that LHO and JVB knew each other because they both worked at Reily's? We have only her word for it.
He was a machinery worker; she was an office worker. It is not uncommon that in a large company not every worker will know every other worker.
[/quote]

[James H. Fetzer]

PSY OPS EXPERT OFFERS ANOTHER VIEW OF THE JUDYTH VARY STORY

1. It has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt (PBARD) by a preponderance of evidence that the US Federal Government covered up the JFK Assassination. Thus the US Govt was an Accessory After the Crime:

A. FBI and WC suppressed evidence

B. FBI destroyed evidence

C. FBI threatened numerous witnesses

2. It has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt (PBARD) by a preponderance of evidence that the US Federal Government changed normal Secret Service protection procedures thereby withdrawing the protection JFK was entitled to by SS regulations and standard procedures. Thus the US Govt was an Accessory to the crime and this required some type of pre-planned change in procedure.

A. SS departed from normal protection procedures regarding stationing agents along parade
and making sure all windows were closed and buildings were secure.

B. SS driver knowingly slowed the Presidential car allowing an easier target which was clearly
against regulations.

C. SS supervisor ordered SS men to step back from the Presidential car, out of their required
positions.

D. The SS illegally took custody of JFK's body and transported it out of jurisdiction back to DC,
thereby obstructing the Dallas Police authorities investigation.

E. The SS transported JFK's body to Bethesda for the autopsy and then clearly faked the X-rays
and autopsy report at the direction of a high ranking Govt official.

F. Gerald Ford later on admitted to changing the description of the wound to the back to obscure
its true position and gave his reason as "doing what was best for the country".

G. Several officials deeply involved in the HSCA investigation have commented that Intel interfered
with their investigation at various levels.

H. There is substantial evidence that the CIA interfered with the release of numerous documents
during the ARRB's work.

It stands to reason that if #1 and #2 above have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, then it is a very small jump to make the assumption that the US Government itself instituted the Assassination via the SS and used the FBI to cover it up. It also seems obvious that any JFK Assassination and cover-up would have to have been instituted as an illegal, sophisticated, deep cover covert operations using one or more powerful intel agencies working on behalf of the US Govt. This should seem very clear to anyone who has basic knowledge of the science of Logic and has evaluated the basic facts of the matter.

Now this sort of analysis can be used to evaluate the Judyth Vary story.

1. It has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt (PBARD)that Judyth Vary was a very gifted
science student and was recognized for her work with cancer induction in mice.

2. It has been PBARD that Judyth Vary went to New Orleans in pursuit of establishing a career track
in cancer research.

3. It has been PBARD that Judyth worked at Reily Coffee which was well know at the time for assisting
intel by providing job cover for some of its operatives.

4. It has been PBARD that Lee Harvey Oswald also worked at Reily Coffee during the same time that
Judyth Vary was employed there.

#1-#4 above are the basic established background for any claims of Judyth Vary.

5. Any reasonable person considering #1-#4 above can easily conclude that Judyth Vary's claims about
being brought to New Orleans by Dr. Alton Ochnser to be his underling to work on a cancer program does
seem reasonable since this fits with the background of #1.

6. Any reasonable person considering #3-#4 above could reasonably conclude that it is possible and plausible
that Judyth Vary worked with and knew Lee Harvey Oswald as she claims.

7. Now if both #6 and #7 are plausible, then it also seems plausible that Judyth Vary's claims about Oswald
serving as her associate in some arrangement seems plausible.

8. If #7 seems plausible and it does, then it is not too big a jump to assume that Judyth and Lee Harvey Oswald
got involved sexually since LHO was trained as an intel operative at Atsugi and there is a document (health report)
supporting the contention that while at Atsugi he got involved sexually, picked up an STD as a part of an intel operation
and was therefore not disciplined. It is well known in the intelligence community that many operatives are trained to
use sex as a means of entrapment (i.e. "honey pot operations"). For this "medical visit for treatment of an STD" to be
documented in LHO's military medical file is an extraordinary proof that he was being trained as a deep cover intel
operative for clandestine service. Ops trained like this use their skills to seduce and control individuals they are told
to as a necessary part of their job (many consider it one of the perks of their job--having their govt order them to
have sex usually does not create any protesting in well trained ops that are committed to completing assigned missions
to preserve "national security" of their country).

9. If #8 seems plausible and it does, then it is not too big a jump to assume that Judyth was being brought into a major
US Intel deep cover covert operation by a trained intel operative (LHO).

10. If #5 and #9 seem plausible and they do, then it is not too big a jump to assume that Judyth Vary was brought into
a deep cover intel op involving Oswald and Dr. Alton Ochsner.

11. If #10 seems plausible and it does, then it is not too big a jump to assume that the operation involved a need to bring
someone like Judyth Vary to work on cancer induction research since that was her already proven skill. Of course, importing
such a young, naive lady into such an intel op could help make it deniable (who would ever believe this unless they knew how
intel works, and using such a young inexperienced individual maximizes the probability of that person being quite subservient).

12. If #11 seems plausible and it does, then it is not too much a jump to believe Judyth Vary's claims that she carried out her
cancer induction in mice work at David Ferrie's lab located in a residential area of New Orleans.

13. Judyth Vary has claimed that she was told to stay away from any program in medicine and cancer research by her professor.
There is no evidence to substantiate this available but it certainly seems reasonable if she was brought into a deep cover illegal
domestic covert ops.

Now, #5 - #12 seem plausible in view of the background established and PBARD in #1-#4. And actually any other alternative does not make any sense in view of the PBARD #1- #4.

Now, it is easy for folks to respond to a story that on face value seems incredulous by claiming Judyth Vary is a confabulator, a fantacist, etc. It is much harder for individuals who are privy to how intel functions in the real world to respond this way.

For example, how absurd is the claim that LHO was a highly trained intel op, trained to use sex as a means of seduction and control? But this is what really occurred and is standard operating procedure for certain deep cover ops.

Who would ever believe that LHO was a highly trained career intel op who was sent to the Soviet Union in a dangerous deep cover role, using a political defector doofus image as his cover? But that is exactly what happened and it is reasonable to assume that some entity very high up in the US Govt greased the skids for his re-entry back into the USA with his soviet wife.

A reasonably well informed individual who understands how intel ops are trained and how deep cover domestic covert operations are conducted (and yes, they are illegal), will not so quickly dismiss Judyth Vary's story as fantasy, confabulated, wishful thinking, etc.

If one understands that it is highly likely that Judyth Vary was brought into an ongoing deep cover, multi-faceted intel op run through and Inca and by Oshner, with involvement by LHO and David Ferrie who was also a known intel operative, then it is not too big a jump to conclude that Judyth Vary herself has been surveilled, harassed and "controlled" to a certain degree in a desired fashion for many years in sophisticated complex ways by intel, especially considering all the trouble she has had after her experiences in New Orleans.

Could Judyth Vary have been manipulated long term by intel and could the release of her story have been managed in a manner to make it appear incredulous? It is certainly possible and probably likely. Does this in and of itself prove her story is generally false or fabricated by her? Not at all. In fact if true it adds great importance to her as a witness, especially in regard to PBARD #1 -#4 and greatly adds to the probability that #5 -#10 are likely to be true also. Each specific claim of her story would have to be evaluated by existing evidence in and of itself. And with the PBARD of #1 - #4, a very good base pretext is set which call out for some explanation which would make sense overall. And total confabulation of all of Judyth Vary's claims beyond #1 - #4 does not seem to be a reasonable assumption at this point in time.

Could she have been manipulated using certain sophisticated and complex mindkonrol technologies (MK)? Note: the MK in MKUltra represented Mind Kontrol in Mengele's Nazi MK Ultra program which was imported into US intel after WW2). That is certainly possible for part of her story but would not in and of itself negate the remaining part of her story which could be true. There are over 200 unclassified US patents on MindKontrol technology which can be viewed at the USPTO on line and many of these involved pulsed beam microwave thought induction and stimulation intra-cranially. And there are more than a few mindkontrol patents which have been classified and which can't be viewed on line at the USPTO.

My conclusion at this point is that it is reasonable to accept #1 - #10 and certainly possible for any or all of the rest of her claims to be true, includiny #11 - #13 and any or all of the rest not listed here. It is safe to assume that bringing Judyth Vary to New Orleans to continue her research on inducing cancer in mice without her having completed a medical degree is quite incredulous, unless one understands how illegal domestic deep covert covert ops run by intel actually occur in the real world. Then it seems quite reasonable.

And there is one more aspect to this. It is standard operating procedure in any such illegal domestic deep cover intel op to weave selected misinformation and disinformation into any op to create later deniability. Here is how it works. It can include including falsities and misdirected false references in any related documents to lead away from the essence of the op or to make the document look forged. This is almost always done. Specific and/or hidden spelling and grammar errors and obvious untruths are often included to make sure the documents will appear forged and will lead in the wrong direction to any investigators. Then typically different errors and falsities are included on different copies of the document so that any leak of the document is easily traceable. And when an agent, cutout or asset is brought into any such operation, they are often assigned certain tasks which have nothing to do with the most important part of the op, but are just included to create a situation that when examined later by investigators or researchers lead away from the truth.

It is always possible that intel set up and used the Ferrie's cancer induction research as a program which could be later used as a cover story to take the JFK Assassination responsibility to Cuba, by allowing the "discovery" of attempts by Ferrie and Oswald to Murder Castro with cancer by Castro which then caused Castro and the USSR to take JFK out in retaliation as "blowback". Often illegal domestic deep cover covert ops run parallel tracks with different programs overlaid, one as the cover for the other, designed for one to become disposable in order to protect the other.

When the a person not well trained in intel or privy to its methods attempts to research a deep cover covert op, then it is very difficult for that individual to ever make valid headway, since each op is typically designed with misinformation and disinformation aspects and dual parallel ops built into it. That is why the most effective researchers consult with retired intel ops or those well versed in intel methodology. Otherwise they often end up going down a rabbit hole by design, a rabbit hole that has been predesigned by intel planners as a trap to protect the op from ever being discovered. Most researchers are just out of their league or in over their heads when attempting to figure these ops out without outside assistance from those who understand how they work.

[James H. Fetzer]

JIM DISCUSSES THE NATURE OF REASON AND RATIONALITY IN RESEARCH

My purpose here is simply to place the current thread within the framework of three
kinds of rationality and to explain why--what is no doubt apparent to everyone who
has been following it--we are so far beyond the point of diminishing returns. Some
of what I am saying here has been said before but has not sunk in. I'll begin with

(1) rationality of ends =df adopting goals that are logically, physically, and historically
possible, at the minimum, especially when you have the background, the ability and
the resources to make their attainment within the realm of realizable objectives.

(2) rationality of action =df the tendency to act upon your beliefs and motives in order
to accomplish your goals, especially by adopting methods and means that are suitable
for that purpose, which can be measured by their reliability, effectiveness, and speed.

(3) rationality of belief =df distributing your beliefs (or the strength of your beliefs) in
proportion to objective measures of evidential support, when they are applied to the
available relevant evidence, where the requirement of total evidence clearly applies.

Evidence can assume different forms, of course, such testimonial evidence or physical
evidence, which is "relevant" when its truth or falsity or presence or absence makes
a difference to (or affects the likelihood of) the truth or falsity of the issue in dispute.

Ends are irrational when they are logically impossible, relative to the laws of logic
(proving that 2 + 2 = 5), physically impossible, relative to the laws of nature (such
as traveling faster than the speed of light), or historically impossible, relative to the
history of the world to time t (wanting to be the first man to marry Elizabeth Taylor).

Rationality of action and rationality of belief are especially interesting, where neuroses
(such as an approach-avoidance complex, for example) tend to exemplify an incapacity
to adopt methods appropriate to attain your goals, and psychoses (such as schizophrenia,
among others) exemplify an incapacity to adopt beliefs that are suitably related to the
world by virtue of being true or even approximately true, which is a cognitive impairment.

These are independent dimensions, where someone could be high in rationality of action
but low in rationality of belief or high in rationality of belief but low in rationality of action.
Perhaps most interestingly, if one's aim or goal were to discredit a source of information as
an agency assignment, they might know the targeted individual is speaking the truth based
upon inside information, yet persist in attempting to discredit the source by advancing any
number of grounds in trying to create the impression that what they are telling us is false.

There is a profound difference between logic and psychology, of course, because logic is
concerned with the normative principles that define reasoning when it is either valid (as
an example of conclusive deductive reasoning, where the conclusion cannot be false if
its premises are true) or proper (as an example of inconclusive inductive reasoning,
where the conclusion can still be false even when the premises are true). But there can
be a gap between the principles of logic and our own personal habits of mind, namely:



Persons are rational in relation to their beliefs when there is an appropriate correspondence
(which need not be an exact alignment) between their degrees of subjective certitude and
the objective degrees of evidential support. Persons should properly be incredulous about
what cannot possibly be true (such as that 2 + 2 = 5 in pure mathematics or that rabbits
are not animals in ordinary English) and completely credulous about what cannot possibly be
false (that 2 + 2 = 4 in pure mathematics and that bachelors are unmarried in ordinary English).

With respect to measures of truthfulness, therefore, we might employ a truth-quotient index
as a ratio of true statements made to statements made. Persons who are truthful obviously
have high truth-quotient indices, while those who are not have low. In a case where it is
suspected that a person might be a non-truth teller, presumably their truth quotient index
will be low. And that is certainly going to be the case for someone who is presumed to be a
fabricator (teller of tall tails). If such a person's story seems far-fetched initially, then that
creates the presumption that they are not truth-tellers because they have what appears to be
a low truth-quotient. But should it turn out that initially implausible elements of their story are
true, the situation reverses itself dramatically. That has happened repeatedly with Judyth.

The study of the impact of new evidence upon our beliefs (or degrees of belief) is among
the most extensively studied subjects in the philosophy of science and epistemology, where
the predominant approach is known as "Bayesianism" for its appeal to a theorem due to a
mathematician by the name of Thomas Bayes. It interprets probability as a measure of the
strength of our beliefs in relation to the evidence available to us. There are objectivist and
subjectivist interpretations of Bayesianism, but the core of the objectivist interpretation has
it (correctly) that there are definable objective standards relating evidence to hypotheses.

I have remarked that many of Judyth's reports about her life with the man she knew are
highly implausible, which means that they are difficult to believe and, on initial consideration,
appear to be more likely to be false than true. The point I have made is that, when claims
that are initially implausible turn out to be true (or, at least, supported by better arguments
than the alternatives), that has the effect of greatly increasing the credibility of the source.
Monk concedes that this is a human psychological tendency, but expresses hesitation over
whether it is warranted rationally as a matter of logic. The answer, however, is that it is.

Your beliefs about an hypothesis h1, such as that Judyth Vary Baker knew Lee Oswald in
New Orleans, given the evidence e1 available to you initially, which might be formalized
as P(h1/e1) = r1, is called your prior probability. When you gain new evidence, call it e2,
the difference it makes can be measured by the difference between your prior probability
and your posterior, P(h1/e1 & e2) = r2. The new evidence might increase, decrease, or
leave the value of r2 in relation to r1. When it increases the value of r2 in relation to r1,
then it is called "positively" relevant. If it lowers the value of r2 in relation to r1, then
"negatively" relevant. If r2 = r1, the new evidence qualifies as neutral or as "irrelevant".

Ed Haslam appears to have nailed down the key questions to ask, which are discussed, in
particular, at http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com/2010/04/ed...rys-monkey.html,
where I have an extract from an updated edition of MARY, FERRIE, AND THE MONKEY VIRUS:

1. Is "this Judyth" the real Judyth Vary Baker from Bradenton, Florida? Or is she
the impostor?

2. Did Judyth know Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans in 1963? If she does not have
reasonable proof to support this claim, then there is little point in pondering her story.

3. Was Judyth trained to handle cancer-causing viruses before she went to New Orleans
in 1963? If 1 and 2 above are true, then this point would qualify her as a suspect for
"the technician" that I wrote about in "The Pandemic" chapter.

As he explains, the answers appear to be "Yes", "Yes", and "Yes". And I find it increasingly
difficult to believe that anyone who has studied the evidence could disagree with him on this.
I suggest Nigel Turner's "The Love Affair" and Haslam's chapter are very good places to start.
But if you disregard the evidence and won't even readi posts I have put up on Judyth's behalf,
it won't matter to you. I have several blogs about Ed Haslam and DR. MARY'S MONKEY, which
is the new edition of MARY, FERRIE, AND THE MONKEY VIRUS, which reports new research in
his extremely thorough and painstaking investigations of all of these events in New Orleans.

In addition, on my blog I have also archived Ed's four hour appearance on "Coast to Coast"
and his one hour interview with me, two YouTube interviews with Judyth and blogs about her,
where her book, ME & LEE, will soon appear. Several times I have tried to end the debate
on this thread because there are many advantages to considering the new information that
will be presented in her book. In the meanwhile, however, she will be my featured guest on
"The Real Deal" tomorrow evening from 5-7 PM/CT on revereradio.net. I encourage those
who want to know her better to catch the program. I find her to be completely convincing
and I am going to do what I can to make sure others have access to what she has to tell us.

Anyone who is responsive to new evidence would be expected to have their priors affected
by the acquisition of new evidence in ways that correspond to objective standards. Those
who are non-responsible to new evidence have priors that are not affected by new evidence,
which can represent "closed mindedness". Indeed, one method for pursuing truth is to adopt
the method of tenacity, which means that, when you are subjectively satisfied with what you
believe, then you simply disregard any new evidence. That has been the case with many on
this forum, including, as a prime example, Jack White. No matter what Judyth could present,
Jack is not going to change his mind about her. His prior, which is approximately zero, will be
his posterior, even if we had a video of Judyth and Lee talking with Marcello at the 500 Club!

The fact is that we have a witness, Anna Lewis, who has testified that she and her husband,
David, double-dated with Judyth and Lee in New Orleans and made a visit to the 500 Club,
where they actually met Carlos Marcello. There is more than enough evidence to establish
that Judyth was lured to New Orleans by Alton Ochsner, who wanted someone who had the
ability to conduct cancer research but who was not known to the public and could be tossed
aside when her usefulness had expended. She worked with Lee Oswland and David Ferrie
under the supervision of Mary Sherman on the development of a rapid form of cancer that
could be used as a bio-weapon to take out Castro. That did not occur, of course, but there
are reasons to believe it was used to kill Jack Ruby, who, like Lee Oswald, knew too much.

During the course of this thread, Judyth has produced documents and records that show
she was a talented science student who had precocious knowledge of certain aspects of
cancer research. She and Lee were hired on the same date by Riley Coffee Company, a
front that provided cover for their covert activities. She even signed Lee's work records,
even though her role was never explained to the Warren Commission. As Ed Haslam has
documented, Judyth and David and Mary (who referred to themsevles as "Mary, Ferrie,
and Vary") performed extensive studies with mice and monkeys, all of which was under
the ultimate supervision of Alton Ochsner. Mary was killed in what appears to have been
an arranged "accident", which took place as the commission was turning attention to LHO.

The basic measure of evidential support is that of likelihoods, where the likelihood of an
hypothesis h given evidence e is equal to the probability of evidence e if that hypothesis
were true. Judyth has made many implausible claims about her experiences with Lee in
New Orleans and her activities there. Her attitude, I might observe, is the opposite from
someone who was trying to insert herself into history by fabricating claims. Someone of
that disposition would make many vague or ambiguous claims, which would be difficult to
test. What is most striking about Judyth is that she makes many very precise claims that
make her story far more vulnerable to refutation than if she adopted the safer course. In
my opinion, that greatly enhances her credibility. She knows so much and in great detail.

Now the probability of making false claims when you are "the real deal" is extremely low,
which means that, if most of these claims are FALSE, then the likelihood that she is telling
the truth has to be extremely low. But should it turn out that, under further investigation,
to the extent we can test them, those claims turn out to be TRUE, the likelihood reverses
and becomes very high, since the discovery that those claims are true, especially when
they were initially implausible, provides powerful support for her position. But most of
those on this forum based their judgments exclusively upon the implausibility of those
claims and never bother to consider how many of them have later turned out to be true.

Indeed, it has troubled me during the course of this thread is that, time after time, Judyth
has produced support for initially implausible claims. Yet the vast majority of her critics
have not budged. They continue to disbelieve her, long after she has produced supporting
evidence. As an illustration, just follow the posts in which she responds to Jack. He must
have lodged dozens and dozens of criticisms of Judyth, where, so far as I have been able
to discern, none of them has turned out to be true. NOT ONE! He has even said that if Judyth
had not claimed to have had a romance with Lee, he might find her more believable. But, in
spite of the huge range of issues that have been discussed on this forum, he has never budged.
His priors have remained constant from the beginning and he has studiously avoided her posts.

Doug suggests that Judyth is a damaged witness because of her involvement in research on
JFK. But OF COURSE she is a damaged witness. After deciding to come forward and tell her
story, she has been abused and attacked--often quite viciously!--by those on the McAdams site,
where she initially attempted to present herself, but also on other forums, where she was treated
more or less equally dismissively. She had to conduct research to find out where those who were
attacking her were coming from. In my opinion, she has demonstrated great ability at research, far
greater than most of the members of this forum, including studies of photos, eye-color, linguistics
and much more. But her critics are unrelenting and do not give her credit on any count. NOT ONE!

Doug could be right about some of the details of her story, but its core appears to me to be intact.
He has suggested that aspects of her story may involve embellishments, such as recollecting the
details of conversations they had on various occasions. At one point, I agreed that the reading list
Judyth had provided "appeared to be a bit much", where it read more like a "wish list" than actual
reading by the man who was killed in Dallas. Yet, even here, Judyth had some support for what she
has to tell us in the form of a report by Marina about what Lee read. In fact, it turned out that Lee's
"reading list" had actually been published as an FBI document of the Warren Commission's hearings:



So Judyth wasn't wrong at all. Doug, of course, was not impressed, suggesting that perhaps she had
derived the list from her own study and research. But that is beside the point. Judyth made claims
about Lee's reading that Doug disputed. It turned out that she was right and Doug was wrong. But
he never wavered in disputing her or granted her the least credit for being right. I am reminded of
the attitude of the Bishops of Padua who, when confronted by Galileo's discovery that the moon was
irregular and pock-marked on its surface rather than a perfectly smooth sphere as Aristotle claimed,
said that he must not have been looking at the moon or that the appearance of the moon must change
when it is viewed through a telescope. There are always alternatives to evade the impact of evidence.

Our judgments about plausibility can be strongly affected by our own experience in life, where, I have
suggested, it is entirely within the realm of possibility that a man who is fluent in Russian, has lived in
Russia and married a Russian woman might have different tastes in books and poetry than, say, an
attorney from the mid-west who happens to live in Kalamazoo. Time after time, claims she has made
she has made that seemed initially implausible have turned out to be true. And Jack's latest gambit
about marmosets and monkeys appears destined for a similar fate. His own expert has already said
that cancer research in developing the Saulk vaccine, for example, involved research on thousands of
monkeys, as a necessary stage in the development of a product intended for use on human beings. And
the development of a bio-weapon involved similar stages of mice/monkey research. How could it not?

Without belaboring the point, the objectivity of research derives from the consideration that different
investigators considering the same ranger of alternative explanations and the same evidence using
the same rules of reasoning should arrive at the same conclusions about which hypotheses are true
(acceptable), which are false (rejectable) and which should be left in suspense (neither accepted or
rejected). The acquistion of new evidence, as I have explained, should make a difference, where the
course of this investigation should have changed some minds. So far as I have been able to discern,
however, that has not happened. Those who were skeptics have remained skeptics, while those who
were inclined to believe in her continue to believe in her. For me, it has been a solidifying experience,
because the more I have learned about Judyth, the more I respect her and the more I believe in her.

There have been some acute disappointments along the way. Jack White's obstinance has perplexed me.
Dean Hagerman's cheerleading has bothered me. Doug Weldon's prosecutorial attitude has been upsetting.
Some, too obvious to name, have played a constant role of harassment and belittlement. Others have
made more constructive contributions. Dean Hartwell, for example, has displayed (what I consider to be)
balance and objectivity. I have appreciated Pamela McElwain-Brown and Linda Minor, who have extended
support from time to time. And Gregory Burnham has made a number of posts that have been welcomed
by all sides. Perhaps the most interesting participant, from my point of view, has been Michael Hogan,
who is among the very few who have actually read DR. MARY'S MONKEY, which I consider to be the key
to understanding Judyth's story. So I thank all of you and others, too, for what you have had to say, even
when I haven't liked it and may have argued against it. I believe the enduring impact of this thread will be
in reinforcing my belief that Judyth is the person she claims to be and from whom we all have much to learn.

Judyth Vary Baker will be my featured guest Friday on "The Real Deal" from 5-7 PM/CT on revereradio.net.

TAM SHUD

[James H. Fetzer]

MY PSY OPS EXPERT REPLIES TO DEAN HAGERMAN AND GREG BURNHAM

I'll respond to a couple of questions and clarify some issues. First, to respond to Dean Hagerman, who says I am a lame psyops expert. He wants to know why I can't post myself, and am I afraid. First, I read the background posts and looked at some materials to give my opinion on what the issues are from a psyops perspective as a favor to Jim Fetzer because he asked me if I would do that. I have no desire to join the forum.

My goal is to help Jim by bringing clarity to any psyop related issues of the Judyth Vary story. I am not afraid of Dean Hagerman or anyone else on the forum and I could care less what anyone thinks of me. Nor do I have anything to prove to anyone at this stage in my life. I suggest that Dean settles down and relaxes. I have not made any personal attacks on him. If he doesn't agree with my impressions, that is fine, so what, he is entitled to his beliefs, and so am I. I have attained all the success in life I wanted to and have nothing to prove. I suggested to Jim that my name be withheld so as to not draw attention away from the important issues at hand since I would appear to some who try to fully research my background as a shadowy figure and it would quickly become a rabbit hole and a waste of time. This is not the issue at hand and would detract from the Judyth Vary story and the discussion about it on this forum. But if you or anyone else can make a good argument that I am incorrect in my assertions from a psyop perspective, then email it to Jim and he will send it on to me, or post it here, but also include a suggestion for a better, more reasonable and plausible explanation. I think most posters on this forum would like to see truth distilled out of any such issue as this, especially with the possible serious long term effects these issues may have for American Society. All good truth junkies need a fix of plausibility every so often.

Jim Fetzer has known me for many years, knows my bona fides including educational and professional credentials for certain and knows personally at least one very experienced individual that I have associated with. Jim knows that I have extensive knowledge of psyops and that is why he asked me for my impression on this. I suggest that as with any other information or arguments posted that they be evaluated point by point for their reasonableness and plausibility, rather than fixating on the person stating those points. My impression from a psyops perspective are best evaluated on their own terms, point by point and each person can choose to agree, disagree and state what evidence they have for doing so if they want to. If folks think my input is worthless, then just don't read it.

As I stated before I do not know all the details of Judyth Vary's story and am not competent to evaluate it as to whether it is factual at any point, since that would require a long term detailed examination of the available evidence. What I do know is when something looks like a duck, walks like a duck, it is a duck. This whole controversy around Judyth Vary's story appears to me as the footprints of a very sophisticated psyop associated with an illegal domestic deep cover black op, with several interwoven side ops. I have explained how these ops are typically constructed to incorporate means to discredit important witnesses and aspects of the op later. Have you ever wondered why David Ferrie was selected by the company as an adolescent and later treated to lose all his hair, sort of pushed over the edge into absurdity (i.e. "dirtied up" to create his deviation amplification)? Things were likely done to him to make him angry, sexually confused and dysfunctional and easily discreditable. This smacks of mindkontrol. Can you say intel's "special little child" mind kontrol program?

Maybe many things were done to create false tracks and leads to later create a rich cover-up for this op. Whatever the overall goals were, it sure seems reasonable that there was a deep cover black op going on involving professional intel agents such as LHO, David Ferrie and others involved with intel such as Ochsner and Inca. In any of these deep cover domestic ops, considerable planning goes into creating false leads, side ops and ways to generate deniability, massive discrediting of actual players and any witnesses who later talk. Intel had become very specialized even during the late 1950's and 1960's and was easily capable of setting up and running an op that would later generate a massive web of confusion and discrediting of any witnesses or players involved. And look at the web of confusion that was constructed around Lee Harvey Oswald long before the JFK Assassination.

And Mary Sherman's strange death smacks of intel cover-up and so far Ed Haslam's suggested explanation of how it occurred seems the most reasonable and plausible. Is it a fair assumption to make that Judyth Vary was drawn into a very sophisticated deep cover cover op that was at least peripherally involved with the JFK Assassination? Yes this is a reasonable conclusion.

And to answer Greg Burnham's question about disassociation as a gift that allows survival [in a victim of psyops].

This is a very astute, very important question and shows sophisticated insight into how psyop victims respond to stress and also how mind kontrol victims also can respond to stress. Yes, Greg is correct with this assertion and this has always formed the basis of psyops and Mengelian/Nazi mind kontrol imported after WW2 and still used extensively to this very day by intel all over the world. And it may explain how much of the confusion has arisen in all the disputes and contoversy about the specifics of Judyth Vary's story. Some continuing psyops are designed to freeze dry a person while creating enough stress to force certain mental compartmentalizations, and this is especially so if a TI has been subjected to any prior sophisticated mind kontrol or psyops before. Another interesting thing related to this point is that it is not uncommon to find some rapid WCAs and LNutters cover-up op or assets to have themselves been mind kontrolled to varying degrees, as I have found in the past.

It is reasonable to believe that Judyth Vary was brought into a very sophisticated and serious deep cover covert op at least peripherally associated with the JFK Assassination due to her association with Ochsner and likley association with trained deep cover intel op LHO and intelligence asset Ferrie. Jim Fetzer knows for sure that I am well informed about this because he has seen documentation on this from me.

I think it is a fair assumption that Judyth Vary was brought into a sophisticated deep cover intel op and used for several functions which so far may not be altogether clear. It is even possible she could have been brought in to set up a false cover or to function as a discrediting agents to protect the op. Who would ever believe her anyway. Even if some, much or all of her story was true, it is just too incredible for most to accept any of it without very thorough and complete documentation. And of course there could have been certain disconnects built in with what she was led to believe and what is documentable for or against. The fact that there is so much disagreement about her story on the forum suggests that she was and still is the byproduct of a very sophisticated deep cover black op, and this result smacks of the success of those that constructed and carried out this op and maintained it's cover-up over the years. And maintaining a cover-up can involve a controlled leak, depending on the overall goals of the op.

One more thing. LHO was a trained intel op with a history of using sex in his work and being treated for an STD he obtained in the process. It isn't much of a jump to believe that he seduced Judyth Vary and had a fling with her. Ops specialize on eliciting confidence in their marks. But that being said, that in and of itself doesn't mean that LHO didn't fall in love with Judyth Vary and didn't start developing "role distance" with his professional intel role, or starting relizing he was set up. And consider this, LHO may have been a mind Kontrol victim himself, MK Ultra style. Many deep cover professional intel ops are. A substantial amount of research on what MKUltra ops were exists on the internet and in declassified documents and records from Congressional Hearings, especially the Sec. of Energy Leary Hearings. It is a well known fact that almost every deep cover black op done domestically since the mid 1950's has at least to some degree involved Mengelian MK Ultra Mind Kontrol in some of the players. The possibility of mind kontol in some of the players may be something in this whole Judyth Vary story issue that needs to be further investigated. This of course if true only makes her story even more important.

[quote name='Dean Hagerman' post='191250' date='Apr 29 2010, 07:18 PM']
[quote name='James H. Fetzer' post='191235' date='Apr 29 2010, 06:09 PM']
my psy ops expert[/quote]

Jim

Who is this stupid lame Psy Ops expert you are posting for?

Why cant he create his own account with his own name and post his thoughts under it instead of you doing it for him?

Is he scared?

Why dont you post his name?

Until you post his name or until he posts his lame "Psy Ops" reports on members of this forum himself then how do you expect anyone to care about what he has to say?

Ask your friend to do a Psy Ops report on my lemming like research :lol:
[/quote]

[James H. Fetzer]

MY PSY OPS EXPERT REFLECTS ON DR. MARY'S MONKEY AND THE JUDYTH BAKER STORY

NOTE: Consider this to be an indulgence at the end of an historic thread. His analysis seems to me to be far closer to the mark
than those coming from other members of this forum. This was written a few days ago and I only just realized I had it in hand.
Those who find his observations of no value are welcome to disregard them. I have valued his opinions for close to 20 years.

Jim, I read Edward Haslam's excellent book Dr. Mary's Monkey carefully and have thought it over in detail. I have come to some conclusions based on my prior knowledge of the background situation I was informed about many years ago.

There were two factions in the JCS (high military command within the shadow govt):

1. The first faction was the "rabid dogs of war" like curtis lemay, lemnitzer etc. that wanted all out "get it over with", "give us your best shot" nuclear war with the soviets. Supposedly the movie dr. strangelove or how I learned to love the bomb" movie was made about lemay. This faction set up castro to succeed and flip against the cia and turn to the soviets, hoping to provoke a confrontation with the soviets which would lead to a complete nuclear exchange with the USA making a first strike after faking a first single misslile attack from the soviets (as an inside job-operation northwoods type), thus to set off WW3 to get it over once and for all "dr. strangelove style".

2. The second faction was the super slick war profiteers like ed lansdale who wanted "perpetual limited wars" to keep the weapon sales flowing and keep the military industrial complex (ie shadow govt) strong. These were the super slick intel boys who were much smarter and very deceptive compared to the "rabid dogs of war". And there were certain very powerful individuals in the shadow govt connected to old european black nobility, nazis and the vatican that wanted to protect castro since cuba was essentially a catholic country and castro was a member of the council on foreign relations and was rumored to be under the protection of david rockefeller (ie the involvement of cardinal spellmen). That is why castro was always warned in advance of any assassination attempt against him even before it happened and the complete details of the bay of pigs planned attack too.

3. Both factions saw JFK as a huge threat and his demise was planned via many different channels even before he was elected. His personal physician admiral burkley purposely misdiagnosed his tuberculosis of the spine as addisons disease and prescribed steroids which made JFK hyper sexual. The mob provided him with many tempting willing females such as exner, monroe and the cia provided him with mary meyer and her lsd from timothy leary, and the military presented also him with a hotty looking female agent from east germany to consort with. JFK would have probably died from his medical complications before he would have ever completed a second term in office if he was re-elected (and that was likely).

4. The mad dogs wanted to kill castro and take back cuba for their compatriots in the mob. This faction decided to kill JFK when he made it clear he wouldn't allow castro to be assassinated or cuba to be invaded (JFK was concerned that this would trigger WW3 and Khrushev had warned him about his own mad dogs who wanted a complete nuclear exchange with the USA too. This option also became acceptable to the super slick intel faction (the allen dulles boys), so there was a convergence of motives between the two factions. This convergence took the JFK assassination from the planning stage to the operational stage. But the super slick intel boys wanted to use the JFK assassination as a means to get rid of the mad dogs, to push them aside. This would be done by convincing everyone involved including the warren commission members that the assassination tracked back to cuba and even the soviets and that WW3 was imminent if this was not completely covered up, and that WW3 would result in complete annihilation of the human species due to long term radiation fallout in addition to the massive nuclear exchanges.

5. In addition, the super slick intel faction also decided that castro was going to be preserved as their "special bad boy" to help promote the idea of the domino theory of communism was spreading to south america from him, as a means of stocking the fires of a continued military buildup and also increased weapons production and associated profits, thus always preparing for the next war in a perpetual chain.

6. And it was agreed that ochsner's program would be shut down and taken to an even more top secret covert status after trying to make everyone believe it was to be shut down forever. And Jim, you can bet they have increased the size of this "above top secret" project many, many times over Ochsner's operation. It is now rumored that they are spending billions per year on the development of catalytic (two part) viruses that can be activated by food additives, or electronically or by chemtrails, and on nano-particle sized electronic (cpu) chips that can be consumed via food air or liquid and will cross the blood brain barrier to be "flashed" electronically by pulsed digital microwaves in order to stimulate certain areas of the brain in order to modulate moods.

7. And I believe that Oswald was working for Bobby Kennedy as a double agent and that the superslicks knew this all along because they had completely infiltrated Bobby's office and staff and had all his conversations recorded. And they had at least one close confident of Bobby working as a double agent also.

NOW COMES THE BIG QUESTION: Why was dr. mary sherman assassinated in the manner she was?

ANSWER: Because it was decided by both factions that JFK was the problem to be eliminated, and there were not going to be any more assassination attempts against castro since he would be their southern hemisphere bad boy to be used to set a pretext for another later big war in south america to keep the perpetual war machine going. And the superslicks wanted to create a cover story that the bioweapon program had been discontinued when actually they decided it was so important they were going to set up it elsewhere and classify it at an even deeper black op level (above top secret). And they wanted to kill Dr. Mary Sherman to keep her from testifying about Ochsner's secret program and the bioweapons program for killing castro and as well the units findings about how to cure the cancer virus that were being injected with polio vaccines and other vaccines. The gruesome aspects of Dr. Shermans murder were to be a very strong "blood shock" warning to everyone to keep their mouths shut about everything related to Ochsner's top secret program.

AND HERE IS THE KEY POINT TO PONDER: The superslicks represented BIG PHARMA and BIG MEDICINE interests, two of the largest businesses in the world and DID NOT WANT THE CANCER VIRUS REMOVED FROM THE VACCINES WHICH DELIVERED THEM OR TREATED IN THOSE VICTIM/PATIENTS THAT HAD UNKNOWINGLY RECEIVED THEM.

So everyone in the shadow govt got what they wanted. Both factions got rid of JFK and got their continuing wars with the continuing weapons production and associate war profiteering. The mad dogs were put in their place by the threat that they could be blamed for the JFK Assassination because they were directly implicated and a lot of evidence was set up to lead directly to them by the superslick faction.

So the public is once again the BIG LOSER in all this, being lied to about vaccines being safe, not told that the SV-40 and other maybe worse stealth viruses had been given to them in the numerous vaccinations they had been required to get.

Now Jim, you can see why the nexus between Ed Haslam's excellent research and the Judyth Vary story is so important. By combining these publicly you have taken the Garrison investigation out of hibernation and moved it where it should have and would have gone if Judyth Vary had surface earlier. Of coarse intel may have assassinated her then if they saw this occurring. Maybe the time that has passed will not make it possible for the whole story to come out. Certainly if it does, you can bet BIG PHARMA and BIG MEDICINE will do their best to sidetrack and discredit the story to protect themselves from criminal liability, huge lawsuits and increased public scrutiny. And this would also threaten the eugenics program of the shadow govt in addition, who needs to keep the public sick, poor dent slaves and dumbed down.

Jim, this is my take on the New Orleans matter of Ochsner et al and JVB that you have put together so well. Many times the truth turns out to be stranger than fiction and that is what happened here with the Haslam/JVB nexus. It's just too much for many JFK researchers to handle. It will take time for this to sink in.

The way this matter is coming together it is completely incredulous to many JFK Assassination researchers and the WC apologists and Lone nutters are now pulling their hair out as they realize these new findings from the Haslam/Vary nexus completely shreds what little was left of their positions. That is why they are protesting so loudly with no real substance to their counter arguments (THEY DOTH PROTEST TOO MUCH WHEN THEY HAVE NOTHING OF SUBSTANCE).

[James H. Fetzer]

MY PSY OPS EXPERT OFFERS A DIFFERENT TAKE ON STEPHEN ROY

NOTE: Apparently I was not the only one who thought that 20 years of research does not appear to
have produced any publications. I find that extremely odd. Why not? If he has something to say, it
would the obvious thing to do as a form of confirmation of his findings. Here are some reflections by
my psy ops expert on aspects of intel ops that may have escaped his notice but interest the forum.

Jim, let me respond to Steven Roy, self proclaimed expert on David Ferrie. I understand that he hasn't published his research findings. But maybe it is out there. And if he has massive findings of twenty years of research, what good is it if not published and shared?

Of course I know the cia was started after the national security act was passed and was considered an extension of the ivy league and wall street "oh so social" Donovan boys (OSS). But alas where did the name "company" come from?

Is Steven Roy aware that there was a well defined wall street based intel agency that had cooperation with the highest level in the federal govt and military for many years since the late 1800s? Could he seriously think that David Ferrie was a normal person? All his behavior at the time of the JFK Assassination as well as before screams "mind control".

Is Steven Roy familiar with intel various "special little boys program", the "finders", MK Ultra, MK Search, Slammer, etc. and all the other "special child" procurement programs used over many years? Ever heard of Russel Trust, Skull and Bones, Bohemian Grove, Rush River Lodge. This is where many serious ops were planned. It is a known fact that the initial planning for the Manhattan project took place at bohemian grove in the redwood forest of california not too far from San Francisco as did the planning for the Hoover Dam project. Essentially, like it or not almost all intel within the USA has been run by the shadow govt, i.e. private extra-governmental corporate bodies. This is where the control lies and all done under the guise of "national security" so that its acts cannot be easily challenged or even laid bare to the public for scrutiny. The term company is also now used to represent the CIA which is really there to service the wall street bankers and their associated defense contractors and this term reflects the constant practice of the cia setting up proprietary corporations and cutouts from which to make money for black ops and to provides cover for operations.

The OSS evolved from the private intel group associated with Sullivan and Cromwell Law Firm which evolved from the folks who owned and controlled United Fruit Company since the late 1800's. Can you spell "dulles brothers as in Allen and John Foster". This United Fruit Company was a front for a massive intel apparatus at the time which was called "the octopus" and also folks referred to it as "the company" representing the United Fruit Company related intel system (these terms were used interchangeably for that intel system, which later associated with and used wealthy rightwing Texas oilmen, defense realted companies like Brown and Root of LBJ fame, and cuban exiles under castro). Later on this organization apparently went nazi and merged with the Averil Harriman railroad faction who was also nazi based (Union bank trading with the enemy scandal).

Some informed researchers claim that US intel is still run by this same wall street corp. based faction that financed the nazis and the bolsheviks too. This group has demonstrably shifted under apparent complete nazi control since WW2, due the apparent fact that the top nazis won the war and had a very successful escape from Germany to successful exile status under operation paperclip, while the german people lost the war. Does one think it is a coincidence that dodd brought back the nazi gun control laws from Nuremberg and had them translated by the library of congress so that they could be attempted to implemented almost word for word in US law. And where do you think the term "homeland security" came from. As many are aware several respected researchers found a connection between the JFK Assassination and the nazis brought to America after the war under operation paperclip (Mae Brussel hypothesized this).

And some believe that the nazis infiltrated and hijacked US intel in general or at least formed a long term permanent partnership with them (under the guidance of imported nazis Gehlen and Mueller). These same nazis brought with them advanced mind kontrol techniques and Dr. Joseph Mengele the "angel of death" and monster torturer of many death camp twins, who is alleged to have supervised their development and implementation in the USA. One of the methods used was to select and take captive gifted young boys who met special profiles that were vulnerable sexually, and then imprint sexual inversion on them to dirty them up and deviation amplify them. It was believed these folks made the best operatives and wetboys. Was Ferrie one of these special little boys, selected out and "processed" for duty? I would be very, very amazed if it turns out that Ferrie was not a special little boy and was not extensively mind controlled throughout his life by intel. It would certainly explain all his willingness and ability to train young boys like LHO and Barry seal at the civil air patrol under Gen Byrd who also owned the texas school book depository if I remember correctly. Barry Seal turned out to be one of the biggest US govt drug dealers in history. But of course this must also be pure coincidence. Can't be any intel conspiracy here now can there?


[quote name='Stephen Roy' post='191304' date='Apr 30 2010, 02:52 AM']
[quote name='Greg Burnham' post='191285' date='Apr 29 2010, 11:55 PM']
[quote name='Stephen Roy' post='191284' date='Apr 29 2010, 03:45 PM']
[quote name='James H. Fetzer' post='191281' date='Apr 29 2010, 11:20 PM']
MY PSY OPS EXPERT REPLIES TO DEAN HAGERMAN AND GREG BURNHAM

Have you ever wondered why David Ferrie was selected by the company as an adolescent and later treated to lose all his hair, sort of pushed over the edge into absurdity (i.e. "dirtied up" to create his deviation amplification)? Things were likely done to him to make him angry, sexually confused and dysfunctional and easily discreditable. This smacks of mindkontrol. Can you say intel's "special little child" mind kontrol program?[/quote]

Gotcha. This is complete and utter horsecrap. It NEVER HAPPENED.

Selected by WHAT company as an adolescent? Between 1918, when he was born, and 1938, when he turned 20? Which company existed during those years?

Treated to lose all his hair? So that Alopecia Areata he was diagnosed with by the Cleveland Clinic in the 1930s was ALL JUST A RUSE? And the reports of the people at the seminary who said his hair was falling out are ALL JUST A RUSE? And those early pictures of him with little bald spots are ALL JUST A RUSE?

Keep going. Tell us more about David Ferrie, from a "psyops perspective."
[/quote]

Stephen,

You're killing me! LOL -- "The Company" is a euphemism for the CIA.
[/quote]

Jeez, Monk- Give me more credit than that! I didn't just fall off the turnip truck!
The "psyops expert" claimed Ferrie was recruited by CIA as an adolescent, which would have been between 1918 and 1938. "The Company" didn't exist then, nor did its predecessor, the OSS. In fact, Ferrie's first contact with the CIA occurred much later.

And he also goofed in claiming that CIA somhow "treated" Ferrie to make him lose his hair. I have medical records, seminary records, letters between Ferrie and his dad and pictures which establish that Ferrie developed Alopecia Areata in the early 1930s, long before "the Company" was formed.
[/quote]