Polish President and Army Chief of Staff dead

[David Guyatt]

It is my understanding that the Mull 'crashicide' may have had an American origin because of "new broom" thinking to solve the "Irish problem" once and for all, and thus bring peace in our times. There was too much dirty laundry to be kept hidden and the launderers were thus forfeited to the cause.

Although I may not have this precisely right, I do remember discussing this with an Irish writer a few years back and he had some very interesting insights into the whole Mull affair.

There were reports that the downed helicopter was shadowed by another "black" helicopter of unknown origin and zero markings. Thoughts turned to a Radio Frequency HIRF gun.

[Jan Klimkowski]

The obvious question follows, and forgive my near-perfect ignorance of (contemporary) Polish politics in asking it: Was anything planned by the deceased Kaczynski and cohorts, especially for the near future, that might have prompted the kind of swift and deadly mass clear-out we witnessed over the Mull? Anything in the Polish press - or elsewhere - to this effect?

I have in mind something like Kaczynksi's visit to Georgia in support of the assault on South Ossetia and Abkhazia, only more serious.

I don't know of anything specific.

However, there are some troubling and conflicting aspects of the crash's aftermath:

i) the ubiquitous "Kaczynski was a great and honourable man" chorus - sung from Tel Aviv to Buckingham Palace, from Moscow to Paris. Most European and American politicians regarded the Kaczynski twins as unexploded hand grenades liable to take a leg off at any time;

ii) the attempts of American-backed and owned Polish politicians (eg Tusk, Radek Sikorski), to ensure that the crash has been framed as an accident, rather than anything sinister;

iii) the ubiquitous "this tragedy seals a historic reconciliation between Poland and Russia" chorus. Note that Tusk and Putin had had their own, little publicized but officially sanctioned, Katyn ceremony a few days before Kaczynski and the Polish Army/Intel top brass flew in for their own unsanctioned and ill-fated Katyn ceremony;

iv) Putin's seeming willingness to be part of this "historic reconciliation" meme, which involves the KGB's Putin hugging - symbolically bonding - with the American-backed (owned) faction of Polish politicians embodied by Tusk.

My tentative position is that Lech Kaczynski and elements around him were stubborn, immovable, impediments to some deep black Grand Chessboard activity. Some still unseen Faustian Pact.

Lech's identical twin, Jaroslaw Kaczynski, has kept largely silent so far.

If this was murder most foul, then Jaroslaw should be hiring an official food taster and Evo Morales' secret service.

And he should avoid walking through crowded hotel ballrooms....

[Helen Reyes]

To cause an aircraft flown by a top military pilot to crash, the loss of control probably needs to be fundamental.

As most likely happened with the 1994 Chinook helicopter crash at the Mull of Kintyre in which much of the British Northern Ireland intelligence cabal died.

What happened to the rumour that the mobile phones went dead on the plane right before the crash? Has that been rejected, followed up or substantiated?

I agree with Jan on the foreign perception of the Kaczynskis as unexploded ordnance, and all this spectacular mourning seems odd at the very least, and points to something else going on.

Did Lech Kaczynski have some big surprise planned that only he, MI6 and NSA knew about? Did it involve EU membership, Lisbon, the loss of the Rzeczpospolita's liberum veto? CIA torture sites? Hard to say.

I came to the same conclusion Webster Tarpley seems to have on Schroeder and Putin's deal to pump natural gas across the Baltic sea bed: Poland and the Baltic states opposed it because it meant loss of transit fees and their loss of the ability to blackmail western Europe by cutting off the Russian fuel. This was a big point of contention for a while and might still be, with Merkel taking over Schroeder's position and Schroeder getting a cushy job at Gazprom in exchange for the deal. I also heard the Baltic states were furious about the new nuclear arms reduction treaty between the US and Russia, but have no further information on that, and none on Poland's position. The missile shield is another nexus around which assassinations might orbit. Afghanistan, too, with Karzai making a public spectacle of appearing to cut the marionette strings by threatening to go over to the mythical Taliban, which means the civilian peasantry who are supposed to be his constituency.

As a flow-of-consciousness matter, it all adds up to something nuclear in Asia (nuclear reductions, Russian gas, missile shield, Karzai). Was Kaczynski about to sing like a canary about some secret NATO plan for a new war? Speculation.

[Dawn Meredith]

My husband Erick found this last night:
The Kremlin must be very upset about this. Make sure it goes viral. Post it everywhere.

This is a short video which was taken down from YouTube and salvaged by another website.

This is a video taken five minutes after the Polish plane crash. You can hear four gunshots. Below is the link for the video and a translation from the Russian.

http://goldismoney2.com/showthread.php?2...ots-fired&

0:29 f**king
0:30 damn
0:43 we leave here, leaving
0:47 Get out of here you bastard
0:49 go from here
1:00 f**king a
1:12 all back leaving
1:18 father leave everything, we're leaving
1:21 f**king a

[Magda Hassan]

The video is still on You Tube. Probably not gun shots, though possible. More likely popping aerosol cans or similar in the flames.

[Helen Reyes]

Dawn, I think I posted the rip of this above. YT keeps removing it and people keep reposting it. Your link links to a reposting on youtube ultimately. Besides my rip, I saved the actual FLV from YT downloaded onto my computer, but for whatever reason it won't play on my players and says my flash version is too old. It's not. The YT temp file is 8 MB while my other rip is 4 MB.

It sounds like gunshots to me too.

[Dawn Meredith]

Possibly BUT Erick said the first guy who put it up on utube had his account cancelled. Then this one had been captured for a website. But now it is back up on utube. Erick is an expert in guns and thinks it is shots, that four different cans would make forur different noises, while shots from the same gun sound the same.

Dawn

[Helen Reyes]

yep, i heard the same, the acct was cancelled. other people keep putting it back up, i gather. that link points to yt internally so if it goes down again, you can get the file anyway in my earlier post.

"warning shots" doesn't make sense to me. OMON troops arrive on the scene without knowing if there are survivors or not, and tell everyone standing gtfo? Doesn't sound likely. They'd ascertain first if any of the people in the area were survivors, then start herding bystanders out. The medical emergency would take priority, not securing perimeters, if this were the event it's being painted as. At least it seems to me. Agree on the sounds, there's a distinct profile to the pops.

[Keith Millea]

but for whatever reason it won't play on my players and says my flash version is too old.

Helen,
I had the same problem yesterday,couldn't get any youtube videos to play.I finally went to Adobe site and did an update,and that fixed the problem. :dontknow:

Update:
Tried to play the video,and now I have lost my flashplayer completely.WTF

[Keith Millea]

Had to download flash player to view the video.Those certainly sound like shots,but they don't sound like an AK-47 round.I'm gonna guess that it's rounds burning off in the fire.