John Lennon would be 70 today

[Peter Lemkin]

Albert - the terminology matters.

With respect, in my judgement the phrase "MK-ULTRA programmed himself" mixes oranges and apples in a deeply unhelpful way.

I don't see what the big deal is. The example was obviously figurative. Besides, in the MK-ULTRA LSD world apples can very easily morph into oranges. It's a very indeterminate place.

If your argument is that a young person with a pre-existing borderline psychiatric condition could develop a full blown psychosis through exposure to LSD whilst surrounded by extreme religious types who considered rock and roll stars such as John Lennon more Antichrist than Guru, then I'm part of the way with you.

The main point being the point Chapman's mind had reached was similar to that induced by the MK Mengele's.

However, describing this as "MK-ULTRA self programming" does not aid our understanding of this process. The common cultural phrase for such a person is Acid Casualty.

Would not an MK-ULTRA victim also be an "acid casualty" of sorts?


This is splitting hairs. The real business here is evidence Bresler found of typical CIA involvement in Chapman's being set-up as a Sirhan-like lunatic. What I find most telling about it is no one ever challenged Bresler's evidence.

LSD, while you may feel is the most 'potent' of MK-ULTRA drugs was not...it was, in massive doses in the mid-range. There were stronger and there were more 'effective' in programming. Most importantly, it was a 'mix' of several drugs plus suggestion plus hypnosis, plus regression, plus sensory deprivation, plus re-programming the personality. [I'm not going to go into the details here where are on the Internet, in books, and even on this Forum].

Saying that under LSD-25 apples can turn into oranges is playing with words, but NOT with concepts.

MK Mengele?!.....what was meant by this. Mengele was pre - MK-ULTRA by a long shot. He was, in some ways great-grandfather to the ethic that became mind-control, but he himself was only inundated to Nazi propaganda, not to drugs and mind-control as we now know it....although he may have dabbled in this on a few of his twins...don't mix things in time or fact, please.

[Albert Doyle]

LSD, while you may feel is the most 'potent' of MK-ULTRA drugs was not...it was, in massive doses in the mid-range. There were stronger and there were more 'effective' in programming. Most importantly, it was a 'mix' of several drugs plus suggestion plus hypnosis, plus regression, plus sensory deprivation, plus re-programming the personality. [I'm not going to go into the details here where are on the Internet, in books, and even on this Forum].

So what does that have to do with my point? I feel a unnecessary forcing of focus on semantics has regressed from the main point here. Point taken, but that doesn't stop Chapman from inducing the same conditions in himself by means of his particular idiosyncrasies.

Saying that under LSD-25 apples can turn into oranges is playing with words, but NOT with concepts.

I don't know what that means or how it applies here? I would turn it right back at you and say playing with forced definitions that MK-ULTRA can only be referred to under very specific terms is what is the playing with concepts here. The MK-ULTRA process can be referred to figuratively, or relatively as I was doing.

[MK Mengele?!.....what was meant by this. Mengele was pre - MK-ULTRA by a long shot. He was, in some ways great-grandfather to the ethic that became mind-control, but he himself was only inundated to Nazi propaganda, not to drugs and mind-control as we now know it....although he may have dabbled in this on a few of his twins...don't mix things in time or fact, please.

The CIA mind control programs are directly related to the level of depravity established and embodied by Mengele, as you yourself admit above. Honestly, I think this is a little ridiculous parsing this to this degree with humorless, pedantic restriction of terms at the expense of the main issue. It's preposterous to suggest that Mengele cannot be referenced unless it is specifically during his time. Killing people by means of evil psychologist-programmed assassins falls very squarely within the political eugenics practiced by Mengele and the Nazis in my opinion.

All said, I feel self-programming wasn't the case here and that Mark David Chapman fits squarely into the clearly-established pattern of covert CIA assassinations. If anyone has an interest in this I covered it in my review of Phil Strongman's book above. Strongman attempts to do what Douglass did with the Kennedy assassination. What he does is step back and look at the bigger picture of the overall pattern of CIA assassinations and the evidence for them. Just like Douglass, Strongman succeeds in showing how perfectly the pattern of covert interest in Lennon and covert interest in other famous assassination victims matches, as well as their cover-ups. CIA, or whatever dark agency was involved, managed to perfect their Lone Nut patsy procedures by making their assassins appear to be undoubtably insane and more independent. They perfected their Oswald process by removing the contact with other operatives and sending their robot assassin in "alone".

The more I study these assassinations the more I realize Perdomo isn't some mystery we have yet to figure out. CIA is very ballsy and arrogant and send their people in right in the middle of it because the government is so wickedly corrupted that they have nothing to fear, as is exampled by the Kennedy assassination.

[Jan Klimkowski]

Albert - the terminology matters.

With respect, in my judgement the phrase "MK-ULTRA programmed himself" mixes oranges and apples in a deeply unhelpful way.

I don't see what the big deal is. The example was obviously figurative. Besides, in the MK-ULTRA LSD world apples can very easily morph into oranges. It's a very indeterminate place.

Because mind control programming involves, at the very least, a programmer and a subject.

If someone takes drugs and becomes psychotic, that person has not "MK-ULTRA programmed himself". Your statement is highly misleading.

If your argument is that a young person with a pre-existing borderline psychiatric condition could develop a full blown psychosis through exposure to LSD whilst surrounded by extreme religious types who considered rock and roll stars such as John Lennon more Antichrist than Guru, then I'm part of the way with you.

The main point being the point Chapman's mind had reached was similar to that induced by the MK Mengele's.

Albert - the fundamental point is whether Chapman was programmed by another person. Or not. If not, then "MK Mengeles" (whatever that phrase may mean) have nothing to do with it.

However, describing this as "MK-ULTRA self programming" does not aid our understanding of this process. The common cultural phrase for such a person is Acid Casualty.

Would not an MK-ULTRA victim also be an "acid casualty" of sorts?

No.

Syd Barrett was an acid casulty.

Syd Barrett was not, in the absence of new evidence, an MK-ULTRA casualty.

This is splitting hairs. The real business here is evidence Bresler found of typical CIA involvement in Chapman's being set-up as a Sirhan-like lunatic. What I find most telling about it is no one ever challenged Bresler's evidence.

It's absolutely not splitting hairs. Your argument is muddying the waters, rather than making the waters clearer.

[Albert Doyle]

[Because mind control programming involves, at the very least, a programmer and a subject.

If someone takes drugs and becomes psychotic, that person has not "MK-ULTRA programmed himself". Your statement is highly misleading.

I'm sorry I disagree with this. My reasons were more than clear and already explained. I've already explained that in Chapman's particular case, especially considering his direct surroundings that would have forced the necessary conditioning, technically, he could have done something similar to MK-ULTRA programming on his own. In that case it is valid to use MK-ULTRA programming as an example since it is the main issue we are talking about in this case.

I don't think it is that misleading, especially after it's been explained. Honestly I don't see the draconian need to force the terms so precisely and specifically. Since this has been explained and elaborated, and doesn't really take that much mental effort to understand, why force the issue into this quibbling over semantics? I see this as a debate over semantic interpretation rather than what is being gotten at. If I failed to explain myself clearly I apologize but I do not back down from the use of the terms. If people want to force the entire issue of Mark David Chapman's being mind controlled into terse debates over the exact, precise definition of the use of the words "MK-ULTRA programming" I can't stop them from doing it but I can add my opinion that it doesn't really add to the substance of what is being said and serves preferred critiques over the greater issue. To me the idea that the words "MK-ULTRA programming" can only be used in the intellectually martinet case of strict clinical manipulation using teams is preposterous and violates the freedom of abstract speech generally assumed amongst gentlemen of words. And since this has been elaborated clearly and isn't difficult to understand I believe it is these people who are the ones "muddying the waters" so to speak. I believe the problem here is people assuming ALL references to "MK-ULTRA programming" must strictly, and always, refer to classic clinical teams, however there's no reason for that nor is there any reason to assume it can't be used in the abstract manner. And I believe what I wrote could only be explained as "highly misleading" if one ignores the entire text explaining what was meant and focuses only on words and semantics.

[Jan Klimkowski]

Albert - your description of this as a semantic argument is also misleading.

The phrase "MK-ULTRA programmed himself" is conceptually meaningless.

[Albert Doyle]

After watching Lennon assassination You-Tube videos I found a video where author Jack Jones discusses Chapman telling his wife he was going to New York to try to sell a children's book concept called "Malekko The Gecko". This made an alarm go off in my mind after reading Adele Edisen's accounts of CIA doctor Jose Rivera taunting her with silly jingles like "pony macaroni". It struck me that "Melekko The Gecko" is perfectly in tune with such a CIA hypnotic trigger jingle. Also, in the creepy MK-ULTRA unconscious landscape a book having to do with children might possibly unconsciously overlap into the children theme in 'Catcher In The Rye'.

[Peter Lemkin]

...and sometimes a cigar is only a cigar.....
The patsies are programmed [Chapman, Sirhan, others], but the real sharpshooters are not. There is increasing evidence the doorman had something to do with the fatal shots and we know Sirhan didn't have anything to do with the fatal shots; ditto Chapman. Programmed, yes. The assassin, I think not. They'd like you to think so, so you don't go poking around at the POLITICAL and DEEP POLITICAL reasons behind these assassinations [and many others].

[Albert Doyle]

...and sometimes a cigar is only a cigar.....
The patsies are programmed [Chapman, Sirhan, others], but the real sharpshooters are not. There is increasing evidence the doorman had something to do with the fatal shots and we know Sirhan didn't have anything to do with the fatal shots; ditto Chapman. Programmed, yes. The assassin, I think not. They'd like you to think so, so you don't go poking around at the POLITICAL and DEEP POLITICAL reasons behind these assassinations [and many others].

True. I don't discount what you say ala Astucia, however we know Dana Reeves allegedly gave Chapman the hollow-point bullets. There's evidentiary problems with someone else shooting those hollow-point rounds because that would necessitate Chapman firing blanks. I know we can go into alteration and hiding evidence - which I also don't challenge because we know that was done in the Kennedy assassinations. Problematic at minimum. Perhaps CIA refined their methods by incurring a non-investigation of the ballistic evidence.

At least at a basic level it makes no difference since it was CIA (or the usual CIA related entity) either way.

[Albert Doyle]

...and sometimes a cigar is only a cigar.....

If you admit that Chapman was programmed like Sirhan then you have to assume his reading the dream sequence in Catcher at his trial was done under this influence. So this dream sequence recitation was done for a designed purpose. I think it was done as an indirect statement by the real assassins who programmed Chapman that Lennon was leading America's children towards a cliff and therefore Chapman (the real assassins' Manchurian proxy) was serving a just cause. This is a creepy use of the mind-control process to make an indirect claim justifying the execution. So if this was the case then we know the internal dynamic of this particular MK-ULTRA event was one of open obviousness of the method. In this case it would make it more likely that the "Malekko The Gecko" jingle was directly associated with the hypno-trigger jingles Dr Rivera was taunting Adele Edisen with. This would very much conform with the type of hypno methods disclosed in the Derren Brown videos.


Sometimes a Gecko is a Malekko. And sometimes a pony is a wet noodle. And sometimes a Banana Stand is Afghanistan.

[Dawn Meredith]

...and sometimes a cigar is only a cigar.....
The patsies are programmed [Chapman, Sirhan, others], but the real sharpshooters are not. There is increasing evidence the doorman had something to do with the fatal shots and we know Sirhan didn't have anything to do with the fatal shots; ditto Chapman. Programmed, yes. The assassin, I think not. They'd like you to think so, so you don't go poking around at the POLITICAL and DEEP POLITICAL reasons behind these assassinations [and many others].

True. I don't discount what you say ala Astucia, however we know Dana Reeves allegedly gave Chapman the hollow-point bullets. There's evidentiary problems with someone else shooting those hollow-point rounds because that would necessitate Chapman firing blanks. I know we can go into alteration and hiding evidence - which I also don't challenge because we know that was done in the Kennedy assassinations. Problematic at minimum. Perhaps CIA refined their methods by incurring a non-investigation of the ballistic evidence.

At least at a basic level it makes no difference since it was CIA (or the usual CIA related entity) either way.

What??? The only Dana Reeves I have ever heard of is the deceased wife of actor and also deceased Christopher Reeves. Surely you are referring to someone else. Is "Astucia" his real name? A friend of mine seems to think it is an alias. I have seen his site but have not spent a lot of time there.

What I have read is pretty convincing. If anyone could mount a peace movement it was Lennon. That he was offed so soon after Reagan's election did not escape me either. However in those first few weeks I was so inconsolable with grief that I only questioned the cover story in passing. The doorman "appeared" to love John. But like other cases, bullets from the wrong angle, Patsy sans money flying all around... YMCA, World Vision, too many dots.

Dawn