Robert Webster and Marina

[Jan Klimkowski]

My suspicion is that as the progress of Webster and Oswald was watched, monitored, minutely scrutinized, it became clear that they provided different opportunities to those intent on using them.

Rand dealt in Ones and Zeroes....

The process is dynamic. Your insight is quite valuable, Jan.

And by "process" in this instance I mean the development of the nurtured, shaped, controlled, but by inescapable definition never one hundred percent predictable human experiments.

Yes.

The limited hangout version of MK-ULTRA (in the broad sense signifying all covert mind control experimentation) claims that the aim was to create a "Manchurian Candidate", defined essentially as a remotely controlled assassin.

That may or may not have been the aim. However, I do not believe that the Sponsors (in your terminology) would ever have relied on a remotely controlled assassin to execute their selected target.

I also do not believe that the mind technology ever produced a 100% reliable remotely controlled assassin.

However, MK-ULTRA probably did learn how to use narco-hypno-trauma conditioning to get subject A to location B to perform act C (eg pull a trigger) at time D.

Individual subjects would have been more, or less, responsive to their programming, and had more or less "bleed" (memory leakage).

Within this framework, the construct of the "Manchurian Candidate", can be seen as a meme, originally meaningful, then used in a psyop, and now a key part of the limited hangout.

The East v. West conflict paradigm -- the Darkest Charade.

Putin croaks Blueberry Hill

[Dawn Meredith]

My suspicion is that as the progress of Webster and Oswald was watched, monitored, minutely scrutinized, it became clear that they provided different opportunities to those intent on using them.

Rand dealt in Ones and Zeroes....

The process is dynamic. Your insight is quite valuable, Jan.

And by "process" in this instance I mean the development of the nurtured, shaped, controlled, but by inescapable definition never one hundred percent predictable human experiments.

Yes.

The limited hangout version of MK-ULTRA (in the broad sense signifying all covert mind control experimentation) claims that the aim was to create a "Manchurian Candidate", defined essentially as a remotely controlled assassin.

That may or may not have been the aim. However, I do not believe that the Sponsors (in your terminology) would ever have relied on a remotely controlled assassin to execute their selected target.

I also do not believe that the mind technology ever produced a 100% reliable remotely controlled assassin.

However, MK-ULTRA probably did learn how to use narco-hypno-trauma conditioning to get subject A to location B to perform act C (eg pull a trigger) at time D.

Individual subjects would have been more, or less, responsive to their programming, and had more or less "bleed" (memory leakage).

Within this framework, the construct of the "Manchurian Candidate", can be seen as a meme, originally meaningful, then used in a psyop, and now a key part of the limited hangout.

The East v. West conflict paradigm -- the Darkest Charade.

Putin croaks Blueberry Hill

It would appear that they did so rely with Sirhan Sirhan. Not saying that there was not steady back up, if Sirhan and the real shooter (Thane Eugene Cesar) did not act according to plan. I would like to know more about Cesar, if he was also a MKULTRA subject. That he lived leads me to believe that he was also some sort of Manchurian Candiadate.

Dawn

[Charles Drago]

There is no evidence to suggest that Cesar was the primary shooter in the Ambassador pantry. Rather, I submit that the security guard represents but another, brilliantly conceived layer of complexity/misdirection -- his motivations to so act notwithstanding.

It was disinformation master Gerry Hemming who told me over a memorable breakfast that the RFK shooter fired a sleeve gun at point-blank range as he(or she!) extended an arm as if to support the back-pedaling senator.

Do I buy this scenario?

It's the least non-sensical version of events.

[Jim DiEugenio]

Actually Charles there is a lot of evidence to say Cesar was the primary shooter that night.

First, he was in perfect position to deliver the shots into RFK according to Noguchi's autopsy.

Second, he lied about not having a gun similar to Sirhan's.

Third, according to the VOn Pragg tape the shots come to close together to be just SIrhan firing.

Fourth, Cesar's politics were American rightwing--a point the LAPD tried to hide.

Fifth, Cesar seemed to disappear for a few minutes after the shooting.

Sixth, he had powder burns in his eyes. Highly unlikely to have come from Sirhan's gun.

Personally I still think there are too many shots on the tape to be just Sirhan and Cesar. Especially since Uecker pounced on Sirhan right after the first or second shot.

If I had to cast a vote for the third gun, it would be Michael Wayne.

[Bernice Moore]

Robert Webster

[Charles Drago]

Is there a record of Webster's whereabouts during the period April-November, 1963?

[Phil Dragoo]

I have followed with fascination the development of the Robert Webster defection, or, "defection," but the brief interlude in the Ambassador Pantry cannot pass unnoticed.

Michael Calder would like anyone able to identify the circle man below to contact him, as he is certain the man was a part of insuring the candidate went through the pantry:



I have read the Christian-Turner, the Melanson-Klaber, the Lisa Pease Rubik Cube, the Shane O'Sullivan, and am familiar with Noguchi's analysis of the four RFK shots, and the accoustic analysis which finds the four to match Cesar's gun, and the others to match Sirhan's.

And, I know that Michael Calder indicates a third person, as does Charles.

When Dan Moldea says Thane Eugene Cesar is good people because of a flutter, it's good enough for his friend Laurence Leamer, but I am not ducky with that--Cesar lied that he sold the gun, lied that he didn't pull his weapon, and is hanging out in the Phillipines.

Michael Wayne with the rolled up poster. Hemming citing a sleeve gun. Or, Cesar after all. It wasn't Sirhan.

Webster and Rand and NASA; RFK and Hank Hernandez and NASA:

Hank Hernandez was the polygraph technician who did most of the testing for Special Unit Senator (SUS), the investigative team set up inside the LAPD to solve the RFK case. His work on people like Serrano, DiPierro, John Fahey, Jerry Owen, and Michael Wayne is quite dubious, to say the least. It turns out that, also in 1973, the late LAPD detective began to build an empire in the security guard field. The company he developed was called Inter-Com. Its first contracts were with NASA.

http://www.ctka.net/reviews/who_killed_bobby.html

Delighted DPF is back.

[Bernice Moore]

webster; the defector's study...b http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo...fector.htm

[Bernice Moore]

i have read but no doc.or reference right now, that he became an alcoholic and eventually ended up in some kind of hospital for such, that some researchers did try and saw him but, he could by that time give them no straight information, and that he died there, perhaps the information is within the links that john posted, thankyou john, i was looking for dr,j js article, but...if and when i find the info reference i will post..thanks b

[Peter Lemkin]

As for the marriage to Marina, it would be interesting to ask her. It is well known she confused the two during questioning - indicating she knew of both; likely she knew both! Bedded both? Chances are dim she'd shed any truth on this now, but you never know.....