Arizona Congresswoman Shot dead at point-blank range moments ago~!

[Paul Rigby]

No hesitation from LeMole, no objection from Rhee - pay attention at 7 mins 30 secs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_c39nnsyGM

Reporter: "Where did the bullet hit in the brain?"

LeMole: "It went through on the left side, basically, from the back to the front..."

LeMole at 8 mins 5 secs:

"...one of the fractures was affecting the eye socket..."

LeMole's experience with gunshot wounds:

As a specialist in traumatic brain injuries, Dr. Lemole was well prepared for a critical headshot wound case such as Giffords', and the added element of working under the national spotlight has gone smoothly.

"Clinically, we do this on a regular basis," he said. "We're possibly among the top 10 busiest level 1 trauma centers in the nation, and it's not the first time we've dealt with this kind of problem.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/735869

[Paul Rigby]

More Information on Brain Injury of Giffords'

http://bmartinmd.com/2011/01/more-info-o...njury.html

From the comments section:

(Some news sources [eg, the LA Times] had falsely indicated that Giffords was shot in the back of the head.)

As we've seen, this is nonsense.

[Ed Jewett]

"... Pima County Sheriff's Deputy Rich Kastigar told reporters that a rifle with an extended magazine was found at the scene of the shooting spree. ..."

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=41067

[David Guyatt]

One solution to this dilemma?

One shot from the front. Another from the rear. One with a Glock handgun to draw people's eyes. Another with a rifle to make sure the job was done (but botched)?

Just a thought...

[Ed Jewett]

The way I am reading this, though I have few if any real hard crime-scene facts to back me up, is that the primary target was the Judge and a second shooter at long range delivered a shot to his torso with a dum-dum that took out his aorta. The Judge from the bench was looking at Obama's use of FEMA multi-state districts to effect Federal control over states (he's a fan of the 10th Amendment, the Judge), and was also into several cases involving the Second Amendment, as well as the right (?!) of the Federal Government to seize cash being transported. The role of the Federal government in assassinating those who oppose it is well-postulated even by Obama himself, to say nothing of other examples found here on this forum. In America, the legislation exists that they need merely to label these types who lobby for Constitutional rights as terrorists, and the Department of Homeland Security, along with the Southern Poverty Law Center and the intelligence fusion centers, has already done the labeling. The demonization continued in the aftermath of this mass murder.

[Peter Lemkin]

The way I am reading this, though I have few if any real hard crime-scene facts to back me up, is that the primary target was the Judge and a second shooter at long range delivered a shot to his torso with a dum-dum that took out his aorta. The Judge from the bench was looking at Obama's use of FEMA multi-state districts to effect Federal control over states (he's a fan of the 10th Amendment, the Judge), and was also into several cases involving the Second Amendment, as well as the right (?!) of the Federal Government to seize cash being transported. The role of the Federal government in assassinating those who oppose it is well-postulated even by Obama himself, to say nothing of other examples found here on this forum. In America, the legislation exists that they need merely to label these types who lobby for Constitutional rights as terrorists, and the Department of Homeland Security, along with the Southern Poverty Law Center and the intelligence fusion centers, has already done the labeling. The demonization continued in the aftermath of this mass murder.

I must admit, I've not followed any forensic data on the Judge. If he was hit by a different type of bullet [can you substantiate that?!], then there are two shooters. Until convinced otherwise, I find myself focused on the Congresswoman as prime target and all others as 'collateral'. It is bad enough that way....without cause, I'd be careful not to spin it even more 'dire'....

[Ed Jewett]

Peter, there has been a veritable mountain-ful of commentary, spin and coverage on this event and I do recall seeing something.... There is already a report in this thread from a sheriff that there was a long-barreled weapon involved, although early reports are notoriously incorrect (just as they are occasionally correct). I am also aware of a comment made of a video I did not watch that suggested that the Judge was involved in the early reactions of attempting to protect others but fell definitively to a wound in the aorta. Did he receive that wound from the Glock and then move to protect another? How long does massive internal trauma to the aorta take before it fells its victim? Not long... but perhaps long enough to allow some ambulatory movement. Don't know, Wasn't there. Post-mortem forensics and investigation can be telling, or can be faked. Police investigation can be critical, or it can be involved in a cover-up.

I will keep an eye out :captain:as I cycle through the coverage in the future.

If I find something pertinent, I will post it.

[Lauren Johnson]

How long does massive internal trauma to the aorta take before it fells its victim? Not long... but perhaps long enough to allow some ambulatory movement.

A severe wound to the aorta would result in a sudden and dramatic loss of blood pressure. The brain would lose perfusion instantly resulting in a loss of consciousness in 5 to 10 seconds. (I used to work in a radiology department. If a patient in the cath lab went into a severe arrhythmia, loss of consciousness was in this range.) I gotta doubt your scenario.

[Paul Rigby]

1) Keeps the CIA's hand-in, perhaps enables some experimentation, refinement, innovation etc in the basic techniques, not least in information management

2) Removes a candidate of some interest to Democratic elders

3) Changes within national and regional climateric (big boost for Obama, not sure of consequences in Arizona)

Any more suggest themselves?

[Ed Jewett]

How long does massive internal trauma to the aorta take before it fells its victim? Not long... but perhaps long enough to allow some ambulatory movement.

A severe wound to the aorta would result in a sudden and dramatic loss of blood pressure. The brain would lose perfusion instantly resulting in a loss of consciousness in 5 to 10 seconds. (I used to work in a radiology department. If a patient in the cath lab went into a severe arrhythmia, loss of consciousness was in this range.) I gotta doubt your scenario.

Lauren, we're in agreement, sort of. (I was an EMT, deeply involved in emergency medicine and trauma management issues...)

If the Judge took a direct hit or even a glancing ripping blow to the aorta from a Glock round from Loughner, he'd have collapsed on the spot, not continued to toss himself nimbly into harm's way over another bystander.

If he took a shot that created a tiny tear in the aorta, it might have bought him some extra beats on a metronome, but little precious time otherwise because of the pressure from the LV output. The tear would have widened rapidly, if not instantaneously.

If, however, he was not hit instantly by a ropund from Loughner's Glock and dove to the ground in reaction to cover another and then took a hit in the back that did any damage to the aorta, he was not getting up.

Let's go the tapes, and the autopsy....