A shot through the Elm St. Storm Drain: Myth or Reality?

[Seamus Coogan]

In my humble opinion, of course.

Nothing humble about your opinion JK.

I really have to agree far to much has been mythologised.

[Bernice Moore]

Vasilios; i hope this is the link to the drain , sewer, Jack Brazil information..scroll down in the thread for further info...thanks b..quote; ''Several Television affiliates, including CNN, aired the events. (OF JACK BRAZIL AND HIS MEN )...It was quite impressive.''

I wonder if film footage is still available,they, he wants proof, ??talk about wanting it all provided, while one sits back and only criticizes, for lack of such which was not mailed to Dallas directly to him, them whomever, wake up, i would have thought long before now, said,research cracker jack Gary Mack, with all his contacts would have retrieved a copy,that is to say IF he wanted one, which i am sure he saw on his local news at that time,and possibly Mr.Jerry Dealey also, seeing they Both Live there and are supposedly JFK assassination researchers, say what ? or if he Gary, does happen to have such, does it remain along with other ''things''.in the ''other'' possible safe within the tsbd marked, ''things we do not have..???'':nono:

''In the end though, it does not matter exactly where the shots came from or who fired them, even. None of that leads us back to the plotters, but the patsy Oswald does. Focusing endlessly on Dealey Plaza will never solve the crime. The bullets came from the Pentagon, no matter what direction they took.

John Judge ''.



https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/sho...#post34573

the storm sewer drains; information..THE PHOTOS ETC BELOW, ARE SOME OF JACK BRAZIL'S, AND GREG BURNHAM, AND ONE A COMP I BELIEVE OF GREG BURNHAM AND ROBERT HARRIS....b

[Albert Doyle]

I think the photos show the preposterousness of the shot better than anything.

[Vasilios Vazakas]

I have seen most of these photos in the past. However they do not prove that someone could have escaped through the sewer pipes to Trinity river.
In the Nigel Turner documentary we see Brazil entering the storm drain, we hear him say - but do NOT SEE him travelling through the pipes - that it took him 20 minutes to crawl through the pipes, and then we finally see him geting out of a big sewer opening to Trinity river. The problem is that we see the beginning and the end of his journey, but NOT THE JOURNEY ITSELF. I found this at its best to be misleading.
Still waiting for the extraordinary evidence to back up the extraordinary claims.
Now if the pipes were different in 1963 and they replaced them with smaller pipes at a later stage, this would be a different game all together.

[Charles Drago]

Exceptionally well reasoned, Vasilios.

[Bernice Moore]

IMO; I suppose he should have taken a video with him,and stopped along the way, but then that film would have been accused of being created after and or phony i imagine, by some, if you live in this life and need everything proven to oneself in black and white, then do not expect such as it is not going to happen, very often.. Correct, they prove nothing, except the fact the he was there, or all the photos were created to show such... Just as the photos do not prove lho shot the President, except he was in the area, if Gary would move and acquire a copy of the film which was shown that evening on the local news, if available, and if it still exists,unless he does already possess such, and imo i really cannot see him not having a copy from the local station..but that is an iffy ??? and that if so we never will be priveleged to view,and not likely in this research b/s area of keeping things to ones self,as then there would be the proof, and also in mo do not and will not question the truthfullness of the information given by other researchers such as Jack White, John Judge, Peter Lemkin, Penn Jones, as well as others etc, like researcher Thomas Wilson,and those who perhaps saw and knew him and his adventures, as well ..I will not doubt them as through the many years they have proven correct and extremely reliable, and very truthful, but imo those who would down any old or new evidence or document whatever, to make sure that only lho was at that 6th floor window, and did take only 3 shots, and killed the President and wounded Connelly, and imo this has been and is one of those areas of information, and there are others, whatever one believes is entirely up to them, their perogative, but imo i do think that we should stand by, the conspiracists, like ourselves,especially those who like the above,have accomplished so much for all in the past,and are constantly and have been repeatedly attacked, i see the word as being faithful,and being supportive to their given researched,information, even at times that it is to some, of us, however difficult in some way...to be believed, what happened in Dealey in it'self the assassination at high noon, in a large city in the USA imo is hard to understand,and or believe but it did happen, but the likes of the Gary's within the studies, who work so hard at keeping lho in that window,no matter what is presented, to those i have no belief , nor trust in,as they work the same way to the same end, each and every time, when the bottom line appears...it was only lho all by himself.....there are times,imo when a little faith and or support of the first generation, is to be expected...and given... all is not black and white in this world......so yes, i put my trust in those who knew him, I have faith in them, and or worked with him, over such as the Gary Poos and similar of these times..thanks..that's my way of looking at it..b

[Phil Dragoo]

Bernice


I'd seen the youtube of Tom Wilson and Jack Brazil.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfU9tqbA_hY


Tom says the frontal shot occurred four feet west of the earlier theory, and that the trajectory indicated the street drain at the north side of Elm. Photos from inside that location indicate the asphalt mat has cut the vertical height by half.


In the Dealey talk pdf are photos and references to a ten-inch and a thirteen-inch pipe. One of the limiting concepts of the Western mind is that "no one could fit in a space that small."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6ZbPqvfvBI


For me, Bowers' sighting of two men firing from the fence is adequate, but the mission was too big to fail, and redundancy was the watchwordjust ask the late Leon Yates.


Or consider:




DiEugenio said that documents now show that HSCA investigators confirmed the story Rose Cheramie, who was thrown from a moving vehicle in Louisiana, and when hospitalized expressed foreknowledge of the assassination. "But what they didn't say is that they also ID'd the two guys in the car. One is Emelio Santana, the other is Sergio Arcacha Smith." DiEugenio added, "And that's very solid, with these new documents, that she did predict the assassination."



He then added the astonishing detail that according to the HSCA testimony of Francis Fruge, the officer who found Cheramie along the road and was later detailed to the Garrison investigation, Dallas police found a map of the Dealey Plaza sewer system in the apartment of Sergio Arcacha Smith. "He just throws that away, like, 'You guys didn't know that?' And of course, there's no followup to that."



http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back...panel.html



We eschew the wide-eyed naivete of a Fox Muldar who "wants to believe," as well as the "tunnel-vision" of his superior, that perfect presentation of FBI peripheral challenge.

[Albert Doyle]

He then added the astonishing detail that according to the HSCA testimony of Francis Fruge, the officer who found Cheramie along the road and was later detailed to the Garrison investigation, Dallas police found a map of the Dealey Plaza sewer system in the apartment of Sergio Arcacha Smith. "He just throws that away, like, 'You guys didn't know that?' And of course, there's no followup to that."

The sewer map could just as easily apply to the storm drains on either side of the railroad overpass.

[Bernice Moore]

Bernice



I'd seen the youtube of Tom Wilson and Jack Brazil.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfU9tqbA_hY


Tom says the frontal shot occurred four feet west of the earlier theory, and that the trajectory indicated the street drain at the north side of Elm. Photos from inside that location indicate the asphalt mat has cut the vertical height by half.


In the Dealey talk pdf are photos and references to a ten-inch and a thirteen-inch pipe. One of the limiting concepts of the Western mind is that "no one could fit in a space that small."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6ZbPqvfvBI


For me, Bowers' sighting of two men firing from the fence is adequate, but the mission was too big to fail, and redundancy was the watchwordjust ask the late Leon Yates.


Or consider:




DiEugenio said that documents now show that HSCA investigators confirmed the story Rose Cheramie, who was thrown from a moving vehicle in Louisiana, and when hospitalized expressed foreknowledge of the assassination. "But what they didn't say is that they also ID'd the two guys in the car. One is Emelio Santana, the other is Sergio Arcacha Smith." DiEugenio added, "And that's very solid, with these new documents, that she did predict the assassination."



He then added the astonishing detail that according to the HSCA testimony of Francis Fruge, the officer who found Cheramie along the road and was later detailed to the Garrison investigation, Dallas police found a map of the Dealey Plaza sewer system in the apartment of Sergio Arcacha Smith. "He just throws that away, like, 'You guys didn't know that?' And of course, there's no followup to that."



http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back...panel.html

We eschew the wide-eyed naivete of a Fox Muldar who "wants to believe," as well as the "tunnel-vision" of his superior, that perfect presentation of FBI peripheral challenge.

Phil the photos i posted of the concrete build-up are taken, or were all from the north side drain...Greg would know i believe he had one taken and it is on his site, not positive, i must find his site again..i believe the report from the city, that is posted within the info posted,by the consp museum info, was 15 inches, going from memory, now i know penn was a small man, i do not know much about jack, but peter knew him, and i believe he said he was not a big man, and was like ?? wirey, not his word he used but meaning such, if my memory is holding, ? ...thinking on it, the film clip that was shown on the dallas nightly news cast as well as cnn, would only show jack and whomever, going in and coming out, and the crew in the area, perhaps an interview ??but there certainly would not be any tv film crew following them into and through the drains, so i have no idea, what it would take for some to believe,who have to see photos of them going through, that is an impossibility, as there is no such film,there cannot possibley be one.....but if some want to wait for such, then go to it...thanks. ps, i have always believed cheramie,i have read the latest on her,and about the map that has been known for some time, that wee part gave some a boost, when outed again.. she and her info has been like following an old friend around by now, and the fruge information is very interesting, i have somthing on him somewhere, will have a look, could be the hsca info..?? the photos within the article are , well old, they have been around for some years now, we have them, i think they were taken when jaynes was involved in the lancer study some time back.i cannot recall who was the man guy was now, in that but it is all posted and has been for years on lancer....thanks again..b

[Bernice Moore]

Phil; here is some on fruge and cheramie, also fruge's photo...for now..b

Investigation of the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy
Appendix to Hearings
before the
Select Committee On Assassinations
of the
U.S. House of Representatives
Ninety-fifth Congress
second session
___________
VOLUME X
Anti-Castro Activities and Organizations
Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans
CIA Plots Against Castro
Rose Cheramie
___________
March 1979
___________
... [p. 197]
ROSE CHERAMIE
According to accounts of assassination researchers, a woman known as Rose
Cheramie, a heroin addict and prostitute with a long history of arrests,
was found on November 20, 1963, lying on the road near Eunice, La., bruised
and disoriented. She was taken to the Louisiana State Hospital in Jackson,
La., to recover from her injuries and what appeared to be narcotic with-
drawal. Cheramie reportedly told the attending physician that President
Kennedy was going to be killed during his forthcoming visit to Dallas. The
doctor did not pay much attention to the ravings of a patient going "cold
turkey" until after the President was assassinated 2 days later. State police
were called in and Cheramie was questioned at length. She reportedly told
police officers she had been a stripper in Jack Ruby's night club and was
transporting a quantity of heroin from Florida to Houston at Ruby's
insistence when she quarreled with two men also participating in the dope
run. Cheramie said the men pushed her out of a moving vehicle and left her
for dead. After the assassination, Cheramie maintained that Ruby and Lee
Harvey Oswald had known each other well. She said she had seen Oswald at
Ruby's night club and claimed Oswald and Ruby had been homosexual partners.
Ironically, the circumstances of Rose Cheramie's death are strikingly
similar to the circumstances surrounding her initial involvement in the
assassination investigation. Cheramie died of injuries received from an
automobile accident on a strip of highway near Big Sandy, Tex., in the
early morning of September 4, 1965. The driver stated Cheramie had been
lying in the roadway and although he attempted to avoid hitting her, he ran
over the top of her skull, causing fatal injuries. An investigation into the
accident and the possibility of a relationship between the victim and the
driver produced no evidence of foul play. The case was closed.
Although Cheramie's allegations were eventually discounted, her death two
years later prompted renewed speculation about her story. It was noted,
for example, that over 50 individuals who had been associated with the
investigation of the Kennedy assassination had died within three years of
that event. The deaths, by natural or other causes, were labeled
"mysterious" by Warren Commission critics and the news media. The skeptics
claim that the laws of probability would show the number of deaths is so
unlikely as to be highly suspect. As detailed elsewhere, the committee
studied such claims and determined that they were erroneous. Nevertheless,
allegations involving Rose Cheramie, often counted among the "mysterious"
deaths, was of particular interest to the committee, since it indicated
a possible association of Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby; an association
of these individuals with members of organized crime; and possible
connection between Cheramie's confinement at the State Hospital in Jackson,
La., and Oswald's search for employment there in the summer of 1963.
The committee set out to obtain a full account of the Cheramie allegations
and determine whether her statements could be at all corroborated. The
committee interviewed and deposed pertinent witnesses. Files from U.S.
Customs and the FBI were requested. Information developed during the
investigation by New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison was examined.
Records of Cheramie's hospitalization at East Louisiana State Hospital
were studied.
Hospital records indicate Melba Christine Marcades, alias Rose Cheramie,
was brought to the State Hospital in Jackson, La. by police from Eunice
on November 21, 1963 and officially admitted at 6 a.m. She was originally
from Houston, Tex., where her mother still lived. She was approximately
34 years old in 1963, had used many aliases throughout her lifetime and
had lived many years in Louisiana and Texas.
According to the clinical notes, the deputy accompanying Cheramie said the
patient had been "picked up on [the] side of [the] road and had been given
something by the coroner." The coroner in Eunice was contacted by doctors
at the hospital and he told them Cheramie had been coherent when he spoke
with her at 10:30 p.m., November 20, but he did administer a sedative. He
further indicated that Cheramie was a 9-year mainlining heroin addict, whose
last injection had been around 2 p.m., November 20. The doctors noted that
Cheramie's condition upon initial examination indicated heroin withdrawal
and clinical shock.
Relevant to Cheramie's credibility was an assessment of her mental state.
From November 22 to November 24, Cheramie required close attention and
medication. On November 25, she was transferred to the ward. On November
27 she was released to Louisiana State Police Lieutenant Fruge.
The hospital records gave no reference as to the alleged statements made by
Cheramie or why she was released to Lieutenant Fruge on November 27, 1963.
These records do indicate Cheramie had been hospitalized for alcoholism
and narcotics addiction on other occasions, including commitment to the
same hospital in March 1961 by the criminal court of New Orleans. During
this stay, the woman was diagnosed as "...without psychosis. However,
because of her previous record of drug addiction she may have a mild
integrative and pleasure defect." Her record would show she has "intervals
of very good behavior" but at other times she "presents episodically
psychopathic behavior" indicative in her history of drug and alcohol abuse,
prostitution, arrest on numerous, if minor, charges.
The committee interviewed one of the doctors on staff at East Louisiana
State Hospital who had seen Cheramie during her stay there at the time
of the Kennedy assassination. The doctor corroborated aspects of the
Cheramie allegations. Dr. Victor Weiss verified that he was employed as
a resident physician at the hospital in 1963. He recalled that on Monday,
November 25, 1963, he was asked by another physician, Dr. Bowers, to see
a patient who had been committed November 20 or 21. Dr. Bowers allegedly
told Weiss that the patient, Rose Cheramie, had stated before the
assassination that President Kennedy was going to be killed. Weiss
questioned Cheramie about her statements. She told him she had worked for
Jack Ruby. She did not have any details of a specific assassination plot
against Kennedy, but had stated the "word in the underworld" was that
Kennedy would be assassinated. She further stated that she had been
traveling from Florida to her home in Texas when the man traveling with
her threw her from the automobile in which they were riding.
Francis Fruge, a lieutenant with the Louisiana State Police in 1963, was
the police officer who first came to Cheramie's assistance on November
20, 1963, had her committed to the State Hospital, and later released her
into his custody following the assassination to investigate her allegations.
As such, he provided an account further detailing her allegations and the
official response to her allegations.
Fruge was deposed by the committee on April 28, 1978. He told the committee
he was called on November 20, 1963 by an administrator at a private hospital
in Eunice, La. that a female accident victim had been taken there for
treatment. She had been treated for minor abrasions, and although she
appeared to be under the influence of drugs since she had "no financial
basis" she was to be released. Fruge did what he normally did in such
instances. As the woman required no further medical attention, he put her
in a jail cell to sober up. This arrangement did not last long. The woman
began to display severe signs of withdrawal. Fruge said he called a doctor,
who sedated Cheramie and Fruge transported Cheramie to the State Hospital
in Jackson, La.
Fruge said that during the "1 to 2 hour" ride to Jackson, he asked Cheramie
some "routine" questions. Fruge told the committee:
She related to me that she was coming from Florida to Dallas
with two men who were Italians or resembled Italians. They had
stopped at this lounge... and they'd had a few drinks and had
gotten into an argument or something. The manager of the lounge
threw her out and she got on the road and hitchhiked to catch a
ride, and this is when she got hit by a vehicle.
Fruge said the lounge was a house of prostitution called the Silver Slipper.
Fruge asked Cheramie what she was going to do in Dallas: "She said she was
going to, number one, pick up some money, pick up her baby, and to kill
Kennedy." Fruge claimed during these intervals that Cheramie related the
story she appeared to be quite lucid. Fruge had Cheramie admitted to the
hospital late on November 20.
On November 22, when he heard the President had been assassinated, Fruge
said he immediately called the hospital and told them not to release
Cheramie until he had spoken to her. The hospital administrators assented
but said Fruge would have to wait until the following Monday before
Cheramie would be well enough to speak to anyone. Fruge waited. Under
questioning, Cheramie told Fruge that the two men traveling with her from
Miami were going to Dallas to kill the President. For her part, Cheramie
was to obtain $8,000 from an unidentified source in Dallas and to proceed
to Houston with the two men to complete a drug deal. Cheramie was also
supposed to pick up her little boy from friends who had been looking after
him. Cheramie further supplied detailed accounts of the arrangement for
the drug transaction in Houston. She said reservations had been made at
the Rice Hotel in Houston. The trio was to meet a seaman who was bringing
in 8 kilos of heroin to Galveston by boat. Cheramie had the name of the
seaman and the boat he was arriving on. Once the deal was completed, the
trio would proceed to Mexico.
Fruge told the committee that he repeated Cheramie's story to his
supervisors and asked for instructions. He was told to follow up on it.
Fruge promptly took Cheramie into custody -- as indicated in hospital
records -- and set out to check her story. He contacted the chief Customs
agent in Galveston who reportedly verified the scheduled docking of the
boat and the name of the seaman. Fruge believed the customs agent was
also able to verify the name of the man in Dallas who was holding Cheramie's
son. Fruge recalled the customs agent had tailed the seaman as he
disembarked from the boat, but then lost the man's trail. Customs closed
the case.
Fruge had also hoped to corroborate other statements made by Cheramie.
During a flight from Houston, according to Fruge, Cheramie noticed a
newspaper with headlines indicating investigators had not been able to
establish a relationship between Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald. Cheramie
laughed at the headline, Fruge said. Cheramie told him she had worked for
Ruby, or "Pinky," as she knew him, at his night club in Dallas and claimed
Ruby and Oswald "had been shacking up for years." Fruge said he called
Capt. Will Fritz of the Dallas Police Department with this information.
Fritz answered, he wasn't interested. Fritz and the Louisiana State Police
dropped the investigation into the matter. Four years later, however,
investigators from the office of District Attorney Garrison in New Orleans
contacted Fruge. Fruge went on detail to Garrison's office to assist in
the investigation into the Kennedy assassination.
During the course of the New Orleans D.A.'s investigation Fruge was able
to pursue leads in the Cheramie case that he had not checked out in the
original investigation. Although there appeared to be different versions
as to how Cheramie ended up by the side of the road, and the number and
identity of her companions, Fruge attempted to corroborate the version
she had given him. Fruge spoke with the owner of the Silver Slipper Lounge.
The bar owner, a Mr. Mac Manual since deceased, told Fruge that Cheramie
had come in with two men who the owner knew as pimps engaged in the
business of hauling prostitutes in from Florida. When Cheramie became
intoxicated and rowdy, one of the men "slapped her around" and threw her
outside.
Fruge claims that he showed the owner of the bar a "stack" of photographs
and mug shots to identify. According to Fruge, the barowner chose the
photos of a Cuban exile, Sergio Arcacha Smith, and another Cuban Fruge
believed to named Osanto. Arcacha Smith was known to Kennedy assassination
investigators as an anti-Castro Cuban refugee who had been active in 1961
as the head of the New Orleans Cuban Revolutionary Front. At that time, he
befriended anti-Castro activist and commercial pilot David Ferrie, who was
named and dismissed as a suspect in the Kennedy assassination within days
of the President's death. Ferrie and Arcacha Smith were also believed to
have ties with New Orleans organized crime figure Carlos Marcello. Arcacha
Smith moved from the New Orleans area in 1962 to go to Miami and later to
settle in Houston. The weekend following the assassination, Ferrie took a
trip to Houston and Galveston for a little "rest and relaxation," while
police searched New Orleans for him after receiving a tip he had been
involved in the assassination. The committee has found credible evidence
indicating Ferrie and Oswald were seen together in August 1963 in the
town of Clinton, La., 13 miles from the hospital in Jackson where Cheramie
was treated and where Oswald reportedly sought employment. Allegations
involving Arcacha Smith and Ferrie and the committee's investigation are
set forth in detail elsewhere in the Report. Clearly, evidence of a link
between Cheramie and Arcacha Smith would be highly significant, Arcacha Smith,
however, denied any knowledge of Cheramie and her allegations. Other avenues
of corroboration of Fruge's identification of Cheramie's traveling
companion as Sergio Arcacha Smith and further substantiation of Cheramie's
allegations remain elusive.
U.S. Customs was unable to locate documents and reports related to its
involvement in the Cheramie investigation although such involvement was not
denied. Nor could customs officials locate those agents named by Fruge as
having participated in the original investigation, as they had since left
the employ of the agency.
Since the FBI had never been notified by the Louisiana State Police and U.S.
Customs of their interest in Cheramie, the FBI file did not have any
reference to the Cheramie allegations of November 1963. FBI files did give
reference to the investigation of a tip from Melba Marcades, actually Rose
Cheramie, in Ardmore, Okla. that she was enroute to Dallas to deliver
$2,600 worth of heroin to a man in Oak Cliff, Tex. She was then to proceed
to Galveston, Tex., to pick up a load of narcotics from a seaman on board
a ship destined for Galveston in the next few days. She gave "detailed
descriptions as to individuals, names, places, and amounts distributed."
Investigations were conducted by narcotics bureaus in Oklahoma and Texas
and her information was found to be "erroneous in all respects."
A similar tale was told in 1965: FBI agents investigated a tip from
Rozella Clinkscales, alias Melba Marcades, alias Rose Cheramie. Like the
stories told in 1963, Cheramie-Clinkscales claimed individuals associated
with the syndicate were running prostitution rings in several southern cities
such as Houston and Galveston, Tex., Oklahoma City, Okla., and Montgomery,
Ala. by transporting hookers, including Cheramie-Clinkscales, from town
to town. Furthermore, she claimed she had information about a heroin deal
operating from a New Orleans ship. A call to the Coast Guard verified an
ongoing narcotics investigation of the ship. Other allegations made by
Cheramie-Clinkscales could not be verified. Further investigation into
Cheramie-Clinkscales revealed she had apparently previously furnished the FBI
false information concerning her involvement in prostitution and narcotics
matters and that she had been confined to a mental institution in Norman,
Okla. on three occasions. FBI agents decided to pursue the case no further.
The FBI indicated agents did not know of the death of their informant on
September 4, 1965, occurring just 1 month after she had contacted the FBI.
Louisiana State Police investigating Cheramie's fatal accident also
apparently did not know of the FBI's interest in her.
Submitted by,
Patricia Orr, Researcher
[end of excerpt]
------
Joe Knapp
"Was the John F. Kennedy assassination a conspiracy involving anti-Castro
Cuban exiles? The committee found that it was not easy to answer that
question years after the event, for two reasons. First, the Warren
Commission decided not to investigate further the issue despite the urging
of staff counsel involved with that evidence and the apparent fact that
the anti-Castro Cuban exiles had the means, motivation, and opportunity to
be involved in the assassination. In addition, the area of possible Cuban
exile involvement was one in which the Warren Commission was not provided
with an adequate investigative background."
HSCA, volume X, p. 5
.