A shot through the Elm St. Storm Drain: Myth or Reality?

[Bernice Moore]

He then added the astonishing detail that according to the HSCA testimony of Francis Fruge, the officer who found Cheramie along the road and was later detailed to the Garrison investigation, Dallas police found a map of the Dealey Plaza sewer system in the apartment of Sergio Arcacha Smith. "He just throws that away, like, 'You guys didn't know that?' And of course, there's no followup to that."

The sewer map could just as easily apply to the storm drains on either side of the railroad overpass.

hi albert,great thought but; imo no they were like different types, i can show you better than try to ever describe..the drain on the north side overpass as you can see below, it like a grated top, the one on the north side of elm, i have not found any on the south, but there could be on the south of main,on the other side..it is like a man hole cover type, only way i can describe them..or asthey were, but i could be in error, have been manys a time.. .thanks b..ps see like i just did, you referred to the map, yes in that way a map could have referred to the overpass drains...you got it,you get the prize, just took me a little longer, blocked up with photo checking,and gobbly gook...thanks..b

[Mark Stapleton]

Very interesting thread and cotributions.

I think a shot from the storm drain was very likely. Perfect cover and escape route.

[Albert Doyle]

Have to disagree. Kennedy's head is lined-up 23 degrees left before the head shot. A shot from the storm drain on Elm would exit on the left side.

[Bernice Moore]

Have to disagree. Kennedy's head is lined-up 23 degrees left before the head shot. A shot from the storm drain on Elm would exit on the left side.

thanks mark and albert for your information, will be back re your 23 degree, keep in mind, that neither Greg nor i say it definetley happened, but we do think it was possible,see his post for his verification, as with other specific areas within Dealey, one thing that always comes along, but never surprises, is this is similar to the lho , never fired a shot that day, studies, each time they take place for any length of time, and information posted, etc, there comes along another article, on the web, trying to completely shoot that particular study down as being wrong, just another thought, it's like mentioning, zapruder film alteration, though not as seriously attacked, but all the same, i have often wondered IF there was nothing possibley to such,then there would not be such certain reactions, seems like another forbidden area, not because it was not possible, but because it was....then again many have their positive theories all worked out and fixated within their realm, and anything that may possibley interfere , i know is a no no, ..thanks..b:wirlitzer:

[Vasilios Vazakas]

The story of Rose Cheramie is very interesting and she definetely had pre-knowledge of the assassination. I 'll concentrate on two points:
1. That she was hospitalized at the Jackson hospital, the same hospital that Oswald visited with Shaw/Ferrie. She was working for Ruby.
2. Ralph Yates picked a man who looked like Oswald, talked about the possibility of someone shooting at Kennedy, if he had visited Carousel club and if he knew Ruby.
If i connect this two unrelated incidents, there is a strong probability that someone was trying to implicated Ruby and hence the Mafia and /or Anti-Castro Cubans in the murder of Kennedy.
Now i'll return to Cheramie and Jackson hospital and try to speculate. Being a psychiatric hospital one can only wonder if they were conducting mind control experiments. And what if the purpose of hospitalizing Cheramie at the Jackson hospital and her knowledge of the assassination was to implicate Ruby as a a patsy in the assassination similar to the Yates story? It is a wild scenario, but it makes you wonder.

[Bernice Moore]

drain study, and tippit killing studies..

http://lookbackpublications.com/killing.kennedy.html





http://lookbackpublications.com/dealey.1-34a.pdf

thanks b..or

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=na...aley+plaza

[Phil Dragoo]

Bernice


The passage which drew my attention to Fruge and Arcacha and the maps is within these three paragraphs in Jim DiEugenio's Bugliosi review Part 5 Section VII:




Smith was a close friend of David Ferrie and a clear associate of Guy Banister. As I have noted, he was also a beneficiary of the Friends of Democratic Cuba, which moved from the Balter Building to Clay Shaw's ITM. Smith once had a meeting in Banister's office with Banister, Gordon Novel and a man who strongly fits the description and profile of David Phillips. This was to arrange a broadcast telethon in New Orleans to raise funds for Smith's Howard Hunt backed group, the CRC. (The Assassinations, p. 231) When Smith's friend and colleague Carlos Quiroga took a polygraph for Garrison's office, there were three questions where the term 'deceptive criteria' registered on the machine. They were: 1.) Did you know Oswald's Fair Play for Cuba Committee was a cover operation? 2.) Prior to Kennedy's murder, did you see the weapons used in the assassination? And the capper in this regard, No. 3.) According to your knowledge, did Oswald know Sergio Arcacha Smith? (ibid p. 235) So according to Quiroga's test, Smith did know Oswald. And he knew him pretty well.

But it gets worse. When Richard Case Nagell was first interviewed by a representative of Garrison's office, he told him he had infiltrated the Kennedy plot in the summer of 1963. And he had a tape recording "of four voices in conversation concerning the plot ..." (Garrison Memo of 4/18/67)) The memo states that Nagell said openly that one of them was "Arcacha" and the other individual Nagell would only identify as "Q". (ibid) The former has to be Smith and the latter is probably Quiroga. If it was, then we know why he later flunked his polygraph.

In further opposition to the FBI denials about Smith and the assassination, Fruge once revealed to HSCA investigator Bob Buras a rather startling piece of information. During an interview, almost as a sidelight, Fruge offhandedly asked Buras if the Committee had found the diagrams of the sewer system in Dealey Plaza that were supposed to have been located in Sergio Arcacha Smith's apartment in Dallas. Now if Quiroga thought he saw the weapons to be used in the assassination, if he knew Oswald was not really a communist, and if his friend Smith had a map of the sewer system in Dealey Plaza, what is the FBI information Bugliosi uses worth? This information raises Cheramie's story into real importance and discredits the Bureau again.


http://www.ctka.net/2008/bugliosi_5b_review.html


The function of Cheramie is as a keystone joining Ruby, Oswald, Ferrie, Banister, Cubans to a plot involving the two ambush zones your link below shows utilizing the Elm drain opening in its wider days accommodating the shorter barrel variants for the M-16 or AR-15.


The opening diameters I took from the Dealey talk link above, wherein it is stipulated no South grate opening existed, though I've seen it said it once did and had since been "paved over." Dealey implies an insider's arrangement with Dallas city officialdom providing him the history and its documentation. Surely the very last word in cast-iron legitimacy.


"Too narrow a shooting opportunity"? What is skeet or trap or hunting of any kind? What is combat?


The statement by Craig Roberts is of use. (Kill Zone). As is that on the book's pages 89-90 by Hathcock regarding the ludicrous idea of Oswald the expert's expert. Hathcock of course being the best of the best and Oswald having magically no gsr on cheek.


If the sewer shot is a nothing-burger why does it not die; why come back like the protagonist in V for Vendetta or Bartholomew of the 400 Hats.

[Bernice Moore]

albert and vos


http://radiofetzer.blogspot.com/ for information on the limo drifting to the left etc on elm...re the 23degree angle..


you wanted someone who did the sewer well, Bob Harris did back in 1995...for some of his info,see the below link and or you could contact him and tell him, it could not be done..without any discussion or contributions of research on your part etc...b

http://jfkhistory.com/forum/index.php?ac...opic=382.0

The limo was travelling about 8 mph then and if I am right, he was probably using a handgun. From his position, he would have watched the limousine pass through his sights, beginning with the hood, then Kellerman, then Connally and then JFK. If he was a pro, he was starting to squeeze the trigger even before JFK came into view. He would want to shoot as early as possible in case he needed to fire again.

And unlike a knoll shooter, he would not have known that JFK was hit by the devastating headshot.

We did the test back in 1995, at about about 4am on a Sunday morning.










bob harris on the zapruder and limo drift to the left..YouTube - ‪JFK Assassination part 1


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkAc76n8q...r_embedded

[Bernice Moore]

Bernice


The passage which drew my attention to Fruge and Arcacha and the maps is within these three paragraphs in Jim DiEugenio's Bugliosi review Part 5 Section VII:




Smith was a close friend of David Ferrie and a clear associate of Guy Banister. As I have noted, he was also a beneficiary of the Friends of Democratic Cuba, which moved from the Balter Building to Clay Shaw's ITM. Smith once had a meeting in Banister's office with Banister, Gordon Novel and a man who strongly fits the description and profile of David Phillips. This was to arrange a broadcast telethon in New Orleans to raise funds for Smith's Howard Hunt backed group, the CRC. (The Assassinations, p. 231) When Smith's friend and colleague Carlos Quiroga took a polygraph for Garrison's office, there were three questions where the term 'deceptive criteria' registered on the machine. They were: 1.) Did you know Oswald's Fair Play for Cuba Committee was a cover operation? 2.) Prior to Kennedy's murder, did you see the weapons used in the assassination? And the capper in this regard, No. 3.) According to your knowledge, did Oswald know Sergio Arcacha Smith? (ibid p. 235) So according to Quiroga's test, Smith did know Oswald. And he knew him pretty well.

But it gets worse. When Richard Case Nagell was first interviewed by a representative of Garrison's office, he told him he had infiltrated the Kennedy plot in the summer of 1963. And he had a tape recording "of four voices in conversation concerning the plot ..." (Garrison Memo of 4/18/67)) The memo states that Nagell said openly that one of them was "Arcacha" and the other individual Nagell would only identify as "Q". (ibid) The former has to be Smith and the latter is probably Quiroga. If it was, then we know why he later flunked his polygraph.

In further opposition to the FBI denials about Smith and the assassination, Fruge once revealed to HSCA investigator Bob Buras a rather startling piece of information. During an interview, almost as a sidelight, Fruge offhandedly asked Buras if the Committee had found the diagrams of the sewer system in Dealey Plaza that were supposed to have been located in Sergio Arcacha Smith's apartment in Dallas. Now if Quiroga thought he saw the weapons to be used in the assassination, if he knew Oswald was not really a communist, and if his friend Smith had a map of the sewer system in Dealey Plaza, what is the FBI information Bugliosi uses worth? This information raises Cheramie's story into real importance and discredits the Bureau again.


http://www.ctka.net/2008/bugliosi_5b_review.html


The function of Cheramie is as a keystone joining Ruby, Oswald, Ferrie, Banister, Cubans to a plot involving the two ambush zones your link below shows utilizing the Elm drain opening in its wider days accommodating the shorter barrel variants for the M-16 or AR-15.


The opening diameters I took from the Dealey talk link above, wherein it is stipulated no South grate opening existed, though I've seen it said it once did and had since been "paved over." Dealey implies an insider's arrangement with Dallas city officialdom providing him the history and its documentation. Surely the very last word in cast-iron legitimacy.


"Too narrow a shooting opportunity"? What is skeet or trap or hunting of any kind? What is combat?


The statement by Craig Roberts is of use. (Kill Zone). As is that on the book's pages 89-90 by Hathcock regarding the ludicrous idea of Oswald the expert's expert. Hathcock of course being the best of the best and Oswald having magically no gsr on cheek.


If the sewer shot is a nothing-burger why does it not die; why come back like the protagonist in V for Vendetta or Bartholomew of the 400 Hats.

thanks phil; appreciated, yes if there is nothing to a shot possible from the drain on elm, then why like similar with the crappy zappy, havey not simply died on the vine, what gets me arepeople who have not done any studies of their own,within said sybjects or others, to back up their opinion, which is fine but not research so why pay any attention to them, i no no, similar with the zap,it's impossible rnf of their comment and contribution,a google or such is simply beyond, their expertise or the members are not worthy of their time, nor input, whatever, i do not, and cannot work that way, it's the old, put your action where your mouth is, of stfu.if you begin a thread then contribute do your studies beforehand, it is out there, or next time, forget it, as it takes mine and others time, which they also may choose to be doing something different, i do not mind, posting info, that is what it is for, to pass along,btw here is a photo of sergio..b lost sergio :rofl:when i find him, will post...:gossip: i found sergio...and the photo showing imo that there hd been something at one time, in the same area as north but on the side side, drain..??? who knows, and if they do they are not telling...:curtain: the shot was taken by millie cranor...thanks...b..ps i have lost sergio again, next time i find him, i am going to tie that little beggar down...ta..here is a nix splatter gif, i wonder seeing he said sergio was with hm, if Tosh knows anything about the map, or have i got the wrong sergio...??? b

[Bernice Moore]

Phil; here is a no good, of course they say,before even a view, that was taken of the south side, which shows, that there had been something in that spot, preiously, it was taken a few years after...fwiw..b..i do also think a shot from the south side was very possible...