Harvey and Lee vs. Richard Case Nagell

[Peter Lemkin]

Charles Drago once said that "Nagell and others at his level are, for the most part, getting wind of the plot as part of the plot."

Could you reword that very carefully - to me what you said [above] makes zero sense...it might to you...but to me it says nothing...I have NO idea what you mean.

I believe a careful reading of Russell, who knew Nagell better than any other researcher, shows that even he is not very sure of exactly who Nagell was working for [obviously more than one entity], what he knew, how much of what he knew he told Russell, etc. In the end IMO Russell believes the preponderance of the evidence is that Nagell was murdered and his hidden 'security trunk full of information' was stolen by the very entities in charge of the cover-up [if not the deed], so we'd never know his full role/story/understanding.

I have been given information that one of his intelligence handlers [of that time] is sitll alive.....

[Vasilios Vazakas]

Charles Drago once said that "Nagell and others at his level are, for the most part, getting wind of the plot as part of the plot."

Could you reword that very carefully - to me what you said [above] makes zero sense...it might to you...but to me it says nothing...I have NO idea what you mean.

I believe a careful reading of Russell, who knew Nagell better than any other researcher, shows that even he is not very sure of exactly who Nagell was working for [obviously more than one entity], what he knew, how much of what he knew he told Russell, etc. In the end IMO Russell believes the preponderance of the evidence is that Nagell was murdered and his hidden 'safely trunk frull of information' stolen by the very entities in charge of the cover-up [if not the deed], so we'd never know the full story.

https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/sho...ase+nagell

this is where you can read the above quote

[Peter Lemkin]

Charles Drago once said that "Nagell and others at his level are, for the most part, getting wind of the plot as part of the plot."

Could you reword that very carefully - to me what you said [above] makes zero sense...it might to you...but to me it says nothing...I have NO idea what you mean.

I believe a careful reading of Russell, who knew Nagell better than any other researcher, shows that even he is not very sure of exactly who Nagell was working for [obviously more than one entity], what he knew, how much of what he knew he told Russell, etc. In the end IMO Russell believes the preponderance of the evidence is that Nagell was murdered and his hidden 'safely trunk frull of information' stolen by the very entities in charge of the cover-up [if not the deed], so we'd never know the full story.

https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/sho...ase+nagell

this is where you can read the above quote

That is a long thread I started and I couldn't find and won't bother to hunt for the quote - since you don't want to point to it.. Nagell was NOT Oswald's handler - in fact one of his multiple assignments was to 'terminate' LHO's existence. He was at least a triple agent, and perhaps more than that. He wanted 'out' of what he'd gotten into, and did so by shooting up a bank ceiling before the assassination, so as not to be free during it...as he told the officer who arrested him. I think you have not read TMWKTM - or read it upside-down.
I don't think anyone knows now that Nagell is dead and his 'safety documents' expunged into some intelligence black hole how much he knew of the real LHO v. the LHO legend being created....or which parts he could discriminate.....or if he knew of other things [very likley] about LHO and LHO's handlers that we have yet to uncover. That is MY reading of TMWKTM. Untangling the mystery of Nagell, what he knew and who his VARIOUS controllers were [and their instructions and motives for those instructions] would itself solve the JFK assassination. That is also the reason, IMHO, that after Nagell decided to talk [some - he withheld somethings too] to Russell, he too was done away with, and his documents made to disappear.

[Vasilios Vazakas]

Peter relax, nothing is suspicious. CD's qoute is on page 3 of that thread near the bottom of the page.

[Jan Klimkowski]

For ease, here is Charlie's quote:

Nagell and others at his level are, for the most part, getting wind of the plot as part of the plot.

[Jan Klimkowski]

Charles Drago once said that "Nagell and others at his level are, for the most part, getting wind of the plot as part of the plot."

That would require a bit more discussion imo.... If a rogue element of the KGB creates the manchurian candidate like killer in HARVEY... it makes sense that others in the know within the USSR
would want to counteract that plan... (in the context of Golitsyn whereby the "peace" and "defeat" of the USSR was a part of a much bigger plan to lull the WEST into a deep sleep)

My own considered judgement is that Oswald, Lee and/or Harvey, supped as he was told at the Bluebird Cafe.

If he was a Manchurian, he was programmed in America. And its Atsugi colony.

The Soviets then had a peek inside his brain, a cold hard look at the technology.

They may have stolen some of the tricks, reengineered some of the synaptic connections.

The programming likely started earlier than Atsugi, in Lee and Harvey's childhood.

Frank Camper claimed ZR Rifle knew the MK-ULTRA Secret.

Power. Leverage. Control. Coverup. Death.

A deadly secret, if true.

There are no Manchurian Candidates.

Only Manchurian Patsies.

And so we stumble upon the real MK-ULTRA Secret.

The Manchurian Patsy is more valuable than the Manchurian Candidate.

[Greg Burnham]

[ Note: I interviewed FBI Special Agent Wayne Barnes who had been assigned to debrief the author of this book upon the author's defecting to the United States. Wayne is uniquely qualified as he is fluent in Romanian and was involved in counter-intelligence. LHO as Manchurian Patsy, indeed. That description by Jan is actually inadvertently supported by the reportage in this book. It's a good read although I do not agree with the LHO as the lone gunman conclusion, it at least concludes that there was a conspiracy. However, mixed throughout there are gems into Eastern Bloc intelligence workings. I don't know why the author was so enamored with the work of Edward J Epstein so as to rely almost exclusively on it for source material regarding Oswald's early life, etc. Suffice to say, it does shed light on the subject of programmed assassins from the "Red" side of the equation. It is also anger provoking because it stubbornly holds to the official version of the lone assassin albeit from the reverse angle. It also demonstrates, albeit unintentionally, how the Sponsors are outside of and above the workings of governments (plural). ]

PROGRAMMED TO KILL
Lee Harvey Oswald, the Soviet KGB, and the Kennedy Assassination

Ion Mihai Pacepa

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...SBN=1566637619

"The assassination of President John F. Kennedy by Lee Harvey Oswald, the American Marine who had defected to the Soviet Union and four years later committed the crime of the century, was an extremely rare cold war episode in which both sides were vitally interested in hiding the truth.

Soviet premier Khrushchev feared that Oswald's involvement in the assassination would ignite nuclear war. The new president Lyndon Johnson faced elections in less than a year, and any conclusion implicating Moscow would have forced him to take unwanted political or even military action.

Thus, forty years later America lives with the uncertain truth about this political drama. In Programmed to Kill, former Lt. Gen. Ion Mihai Pacepa, the highest-ranking intelligence official ever to defect from the Soviet bloc, reveals facts covered up by the Kremlin and addresses the myriad questions left unanswered by the Warren Commission, the House Select Committee on Assassinations, and the numerous books written on this subject.

Pacepa is the only investigator of the assassination who had direct knowledge of the KGB's ties to Oswald. He spent fifteen years of his previous life at the top of a frenzied Communist intelligence effort designed to cast the blame for Kennedy's death on forces within the United States.

Programmed to Kill places Pacepa's knowledge of the KGB's secret involvement with Oswald in the context of factual reporting that has appeared on the case. The book juxtaposes the KGB modus operandimostly unknown to outsidersagainst the irrefutable evidence assembled by the FBI and other U.S. investigators.

According to Wayne A. Barnes, retired Special Agent in the FBI who worked foreign counterintelligence for over 25 years as a cold warrior, and was a principal debriefing agent for General Pacepa for nearly two years after his defection in 1978:

"General Ion Mihai Pacepa has given us a new and very different point of view of the JFK assassination, clarifying what has been the conspiracy theorists' haven in the 20th century. In the FBI we taught that the truth is in the details,' and the General exquisitely reveals the truthwith verifiable, consistent, meshing-together, and incontrovertible facts about the involvement of the Soviet leadership and the KGB in this tragedy from start to finish, and even afterward in covering up their malfeasance."

"The General's credibilityfrom the time of his initial debriefings and to the presentcontinues to ring true. He speaks the language of intelligence' and admirably translates it for those who lived through that time but were unaware of how to interpret what the plethora of facts really meant. A younger generation can now also profit from the General's insight to see this historic event clearly."

Programmed to Kill is mind-boggling in its detail. The book illuminates the inherent evil of the KGB, whose former officers are now running Russia and apparently continuing to dispose of dissidents at home and around the world.

[Phil Dragoo]

Nagell and others at his level are, for the most part, getting wind of the plot as part of the plot.


The photo of the Luma manager at Win Scott's wife's birthday party with Scott and Phillips at the table.

Phillips the consummate plotter, using Charles' identified recurring doppelganger fugue.

The cognitive dissonance of the Chicago plot is replicated in Nagell's warning.

What is different in Pacepa-Epstein-Barnes from Sturgis positing KGB assassin for Oswald, or, for that matter, that Jack Freaking Ruby was in Tel Aviv masquerading as a high-ranking NKVD officer recruiting double agents.

Look at Epstein Dossier the Secret Life of Armand Hammer and at Epstein last to tag George DeMohrenschildt

In the first instance he is all over Hammer as wrapped up in CPUSA and paints the Gores senators father and son as protectors of the international commie bag man

Add an FBI agent and the hmm factor is reported on a par with the Taos Hum

I stipulate on fact and belief Lee was not a programmed Manchurian Candidate in the understanding we take away from Condon's novel and Frankenheimer's film

Lee fired no weapon that dayhence all this chatter of his programming as an assassin is epicycles added by Agent Ptolemy to confuse

Harvey, finea Chicago plot to confuse, yesNagell "gets wind" of something he dimly perceives from agents he can't quite identifyperfect

For this is how the intelligence agencies were kept off balance

It's a production (for anonymous Broadway angels) by Dulles-Hunt-Phillips with Angleton's Casting providing the Gold-Plated Perfect Patsy

Who had no time in the nest, may not have even been in Mexico City (DiEugenio report on Garrison letter), had no cheek GSR (while the "nitrates" on his hands could come from box paper, label ink, adhesives), nor did he shoot Tippit, nor did he fire on Walker.

Nagell was baited like a bear in the cage and at the end he had David Hemmings' mime ball from Blow-Up (1966)

Zero zip nada

I don't always assassinate
but when I do, I use a patsy

Stay busy, my friends

[David Josephs]

If Golitsyn is to be believed... I am think he should be...

Any and all information coming from East of Warsaw is suspect.
THEY taught US about the manchurian candidate/patsy... peeking into Oswald's brain should have revealed "Wiring MADE in the USSR"

Bottom line... there is no benefit to anyone on the inside to release information.. in fact it can be most deadly.

Does it not fit into the Deep Poltics model that ANYTHING OF VALUE is virtually unseparatable from Everything that isn't....

What better way to throw people off the scent than to offer a "KGB was up to their necks in it" ... scenario.


Pacepa said that "among the leaders of Moscow's satellite intelligence services there was unanimous agreement that the KGB had been involved in the assassination of President Kennedy", and that KGB fingerprints are all over Lee Harvey Oswald and his killer Jack Ruby.[SUP][10][/SUP][SUP][12][/SUP] Pacepa has since had a book published on the topic, Programmed to Kill: Lee Harvey Oswald, the Soviet KGB, and the Kennedy Assassination, in which he asserts that Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev ordered Kennedy's assassination. Khrushchev is said to have annulled the plan, but Soviet agents were unable to reach Oswald before Khrushchev's annulment order could be executed.


Excuse me, but this sure sounds like a very clever plan by SPONSORS to focus attention on FACILITATORS...

We've seen repeatedly how the KGB gave up whole sections of counter intelligence operations to protect an even bigger one....

If HARVEY was actually from USSR to begin with... as Armstrong suggests.... the entire thing could have been KGB controlled... including the project to send these men BACK to the USSR.
Depends how much of Anthony Frank's "the CIA was the KGB for all practical purposes" you believe. His POV suggests that in 1984 when congress held hearing about the infultration of CIA by KGB,

the actual numbers and levels of infultration were staggering.... the GREATEST THING to happen to the KGB was the CIA...

Deeeeeeeeep Politics.

[Lauren Johnson]

If Golitsyn is to be believed

Mind adding a little more on what it is that Golitsyn claims?