FBI's Pants on Fire!

[Tom Scully]

........
You see Bob... Feldsott describes the packing of surplus rifles in Italy assisted by the Italian military. Serial numbers are checked as they are packed.(this is all thanks to John Armstrong's work btw - these images are contained in the CD which accompanies the book) Many come from the Archives and are the only copies of the documents...

Here is a composite of all the info. I fail to see why they would remove the one unique identifier for each rifle - if this was done there'd be no way to follow any rifle unless it was restamped with a new unique # and start all over.

I too have heard this Bob - It makes little sense unless the rifles were destined for places where tracing the serial #'s was not a good idea.

http://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docI...%20italian

[Mark A. O'Blazney]

Well said, Tom. Always a pleasure to read your posts.

[Jim Hargrove]

More proof the FBI lied and lied and lied....

[Tom Scully]

Jim,

Do you want to address the claims on your website, or this claim? Your website homepage has not been edited since November 8, and a lot of new money order related detail has revealed itself since that date. The page at this link also continues to display the same unrevised money order claims.:
http://harveyandlee.net/Guns/Guns.html

I can't go to bed or sleep if I have awareness that any detail on one of my websites is not solidly supported. The last thing I ever want to do is mislead any anticipated reader. Is this not a problem?:

Hey there Jim....

Doesn't that price jive with the scope mounting evidence thrown into the mix?

I know Ryder recants and is not sure after his statement - which was par for the course - especially since it was 3 holes he says he drilled and the MC only has the 2.
An undated receipt with Ozzie's name on it.


Here is what Holmes offered for the price of the rifle and why it was repeated and published.... (Moyer's piece on the rifle)
......
The Holmes discovery is a complete fabrication, so like any other fabricated evidence which was found out - it was replaced by better and deeper evidence.

Holmes offers nothing to support his story other than the F&S ad. No PMO stub, no names of those who did the search. Nothing

Whereas the SS and USPS have Harold Marks and Robert Jackson (both ficticious names of men supposedly employees of the Fed Records Center) turn the PMO over to the SS at 10:10pm on the 23rd - Saturday.

Holmes claims it was found that morning.
This shows the SS finding it in Kansas City while the USPS recap directly conflicts.
...........

I apologize for the long post. But it seems reasonable proof is treated as an annoyance, or ignored.
So this may seem overwhelming, compared to some of the specific claims.

(Yeah, but we are accurate about every one of our other claims and conclusions. Really? How deep

and thoroughly have you looked?)

Publication: http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/52423260/
The Austin American iLocation:Austin, Texas
Issue Date:Saturday, January 15, 1949Pageage 2
....Mail Pouch With $75,000 Disappears CHICAGO. Jan. 14 (INS> Post i Office Department inspectors said ; Friday that a mail pouch contain- I ing between $75.000 and $80.000 dis- ! appeared Thursday night while en i route from a Waukesha. Wis bank to Chicago. J. Harold Marks, chief postal inâ–  spector in Chicago, declared that the pouch was supposed to have been placed aboard a through Soo Line tram which left Waukesha at ; 6:30 p. m. Thursday. It was due at the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago at 9 30 p. m. Marks said the pouch contained, in part, bills that had been damaged in handling and which were to be replaced with new money. He said the mutilated bills...

................

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=archivist+society+robert+jackson+alexandria&tbm=bksTHE AMERICAN ARCHIVIST VOLUME 27 1964 - Page 337

https://books.google.com/books?id=D8yxshMo8w0C

1964 - ‎Snippet view
DOROTHY HILL GERSACK, Editor Office of Federal Records Centers National Archives and Records Service Society of ... Norman, Okla. ; Anita Jackson, Baltimore, Md.; Robert H. Jackson, Alexandria, Va. ; Mary M. Johnson, Washington, ...

[David Josephs]

Thanks Tom- your indepth research proving that men by these names existed and were connected to the Records center is impressive as usual.

Please provide the corroboration that the people who met with and gave SA PARKER the PMO at 10:10 EST were the two men you biographed above... and that the men above - if the same as those on 11/23 - were also not assets for American intelligence.

And thanks for the Marks testimony - adds further proof the PMO had to be processed by the FRB of Chicago.

So let's look closely at the VERANT-DUGGINS-MARKS-JACKSON-PARKER acquisition as compared to the other 3 acquisitions of that same PMO that day.

Do you have anything to offer as to why these upstanding citizens and employees of the Fed Records Center would produce a PMO which was never processed thru the US Banking system and found 3 other times earlier that day?


------------------------------------------

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html...9&tab=page is part of the SS report which states that Postal Inspector Verant contacts Marks to initiate a search. Yes - a Finance Officer and Mr. Jackson, a Management Analyst are the two people chosen to go into the Fed Records Center on a Saturday evening and retreive the PMO.

Marks tells Verant that Deputy Chief Duggins called him an hour ago with the same request. This occurs at 9pm EST (all the times in my PMO timeline are EST)
Meaning that by 8pm EST Duggins had called MARKS again - must have been an important guy - who told VERANT that the search had already begun.

Also at 9pm EST SS SAIC Kroz is called in Kansas City (8pm local KC) and is informed the PMO has been found.
We must remember that Holmes has already gone thru this process - found the PMO stub and has gotten word it's been recoved mid-morning on Saturday, 9 hours before this happens

The report above goes on to say that the reporting agent, SA BURKE, PARKER and/or GRIMES tells Marks that there has been some trouble getting the computers "up to operational level" and needs 15 more minutes before they could locate the PMO given the information SS Chief PATERNI provided... at 8:30pm EST.

Who might that be Tom? Who was bringing the computers up late Sat night in order to find something for the Secret Service which had already been found. And where does Chief PATERNI get the information to convey to GAIGLAIN? https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html...8&tab=page

He provides every bit of info needed to create the PMO - on page 119 of this amazing document we learn that PI Lloyd Stevens in FORT WORTH provides the PMO details as a result of a discussion with Don DUGGINS... at 9:35pm EST (8:30 in KC) Marks claims he has the PMO - even though is had been found and bropuhg to the SS office in both Chicago and DC.

One wonders how KROZ in Kansas City can be told at 8pm local time or 9pm EST that the PMO has been found, when by 9pm EST Marks has not yet gone to the Records Center. The following linked page is the end of a SS report from Chicago showing the 7:55 and 8pm local times for when KROZ learns this info. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html...4&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html...9&tab=page this page is the cover page of the same report and states that "the money order involved was recovered by Postal Inspectors in Kansas City and forwarded to the Asst Chief's Office of this Service"




So help me out here Tom... we have 4 instances of finding the PMO

1. Holmes is told the PMO has been found by midday 11/23 due to his own PMO stub finding efforts
   
2. The Secret Service finds the PMO in Kansas City - where at 7:30pm local time Post Office Inspectors report they think the PMO would be wsent to KC and they were attempting to find it already
   
3. KROZ is called and told it was found in DC at 8pm local 9pm EST
   
4. MARKS hands a PMO to SS SA PARKER supposedly obtained by JACKSON at 10:10pm EST Sat night.
   

So Tom - when I state that we don't know if the men involved were actually Marks and Jackson since noone it seems took any time to corroborate that information. I gather, if you hade found either Marks or Jackson's statements or affidavits to the FBI and WC that they indeed did as was reported about them - you would have posted them.

But you didn't. So, until you can prove who the men were, their involvement in this PMO charade puts a much brighter light on the possibility they were not who they said they were but assisting the key players with an item of evidence that never existed in the first place.

DJ

[Tom Scully]

...........
And thanks for the Marks testimony - adds further proof the PMO had to be processed by the FRB of Chicago.

...................
But you didn't. So, until you can prove who the men were, their involvement in this PMO charade puts a much brighter light on the possibility they were not who they said they were but assisting the key players with an item of evidence that never existed in the first place.

DJ

David,
You make it obvious you are in over your head or have a reading comprehension problem. You've made extraordinary claims, (you can attempt to prove them, yourself) compared to the statement of the SS agent who received the $21.45 postal money order, as he stated in his official report, from J Harold Marks and Robert H Jackson.:
http://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docI...%20jackson
He offered their initials on the back of said money order, and his relevant statement details are corroborated in Postal Inspector Harry Holmes's testimony.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/holmes1.htm
............
Mr. HOLMES. I gave that information to my boss by telephone. He called Washington immediately. Of course this information included the money order number. This number was transmitted by phone to the chief inspector in Washington, who immediately got the money order center at Washington to begin a

295

---

search, which they use IBM equipment to kick out this money order, and about 7 o'clock Saturday night they did kick out the original money order and sent it over by, so they said, by special conveyance to the Secret Service, chief of Secret Service at Washington now, and it turned out, so they said, to be the correct money order. I asked them by phone as to what it said on it, and it said it had been issued to A. J. Hidell, which to me then was the tip that I had the correct money order. Up to then I didn't know whether I had the correct money order or not....

Let us see if one of the attorney reading here will vouch for your method of challenging the official record based on your own misgivings, prompting you to advise Len Osanic's listeners and reader here that Mr. Marks or Mr. Jackson "did not exist" and then when called on your unsupported claims, demanding that others "prove" what is in the record.

I did not think your response merited a reply, but then I considered your claim that Marks's testimony adds "further proof" despite all the facts already presented.

J. Harold Marks's testimony was dated Wednesday, March 30, 1960 :
https://bulk.resource.org/gao.gov/91-375/0000AA67.pdf


From November 10, 2015, http://jfk.education/node/11
I've proven Marks's testimony was obsolete as of 5 January, 1963, as it related to postal money orders sold in Dallas, but you resorted to Marks's 1960 testimony as supporting evidence of your claims, despite the facts I have repeatedly presented.:

[URL="https://www.google.com/?gfe_rd=ssl&ei=_J14Vr3DBMyn-AX6l5PYCg#tbm=bks&q=%22*The+annual+payment+to+the+Federal+Reserve%2C+approximately+%24600%2C000+in+1961%2C+has+%22"]
Treasury-Post Office Departments and Executive Office ... - Page 144[/URL]
https://books.google.com/books?id=lRguAAAAMAAJ

United States. Congress. Senate. Committee on Appropriations - 1964 - ‎Snippet view - ‎More editions
...As the money orders issued on the new machines flow into the Federal Reserve System, Federal Reserve System, the Federal Reserve is no longer required to punch the amounts but can process them directly upon receipt. The annual payment to the Federal Reserve, approximately $600,000 in 1961, has now been eliminated.

I posted some of that proof on this forum as well, on Nov. 16, 2015.:

.....

https://books.google.com/books?id=SUbVAAAAMAAJ
United States. Congress. House. Committee on Appropriations - 1964 - ?Snippet view - ?page 143
Money Order Audit
Service Rendered
...........Print-punch order machines
In 1951 the use of a punched card money order was adopted and in 1955 the audit work was
centralized in Kansas City, Mo., for the entire country. Only the money order serial number was prepunched on the card. The amount was not punched until the money order reached the Federal Reserve System. A charge has always been made by the Federal Reserve for this keypunching work.

In fiscal 1961, the Department was given funds to buy money order issuing machines which could be used in all post offices and which would punch the amount into the order at the time of issuance. Deliveries of the equipment began late in the fiscal year 1962 and the machines were placed in operation in two regions. .....

.........

http://www.uspostalbulletins.com/PDF/Vol...20order%22
page 2

and page 5.: http://www.uspostalbulletins.com/PDF/Vol...20order%22
Jim DiEugenio posted recently about private conversations related to this new research.:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index....ntry319566
If David's comment about Marks's 1960 testimony supporting Armstrong's contention as related by Hargrove and defended by David Josephs that "the money order was not cashed" and David has as slim of a grasp of detail as he indicated in his last post, and I have compared in this post, what is the purpose of all of that telephone time? David Josephs indicates his suspicions must be disproven, but he tried to maneuver me into disproving them. The record is there, David, have at it, your ownself. In the meantime, unless Len Osanic has converted to an entertainment format, making a blanket statement to his listeners (on November 19) that Robert H Jackson could not be identified/located seems an unreasonable thing to claim.

[Drew Phipps]

Let us see if one of the attorney reading here will vouch for your method of challenging the official record

a. Since whatever you guys are arguing about now didn't occur in a legal proceeding, it is unlikely that I or any attorney can offer you an opinion any more useful than anyone else, one way or another.

b. I don't truly understand what the dispute is here. Are you guys arguing about whether the money order was cashed/processed? (since there's no bank stamps, best evidence is "no," and I'd suggest the burden of proving that they were processed falls on the camp that says so, and I'm not convinced). Are you arguing about whether these witnesses actually existed? ( I'd defer to Tom's obvious genealogical expertise here.)

The bottom line (for me) is that the FBI and the Warren Commission basically wrote words into the witnesses' mouths anyways. Bob is right. To paraphrase from a film of that alleged moon-landing forger Stanley Kubrick, "It's full of lies!"

[Jim Hargrove]

This never deposited money order first appeared in the hands of Robert Jackson, an employee of the Federal Records Center, who lived in Alexandria, VA. Neither Mr. Jackson nor any employee of the Federal Records Center was questioned about the money order by the FBI or Warren Commission or HSCA or the Secret Service. At 9:35 PM (11/23/63) Jackson hand delivered this money order to J. Harold Marks, a Finance Officer for the US Postal Service, at his home in Arlington, VA. The initials that appear on the back of this money order were made by Jackson, Marks, and other Federal officials who took possession of the money order. The Secret Service made 5 photostats of this money order and sent the photostats to Dallas. The following day (11/24/63), at 10:00 AM, Secret Service Agent Grimes gave the original PMO to the FBI, and the money order soon vanished. The Warren Commission accepted photostats of this money order as "proof" that Oswald purchased this mail-order rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago. Apparently, not a single member of the WC nor its attorneys nor staff questioned the authenticity of this money order nor questioned the absence of a single bank stamp/endorsement. To verify the authenticity and bank routing of this PMO, the Warren Commission only needed to ask the US Postal Department to conduct "payment research" on the money order. There is no cost for this service, but the results may have been a bit difficult for the WC to explain.

[Tom Scully]

Let us see if one of the attorney reading here will vouch for your method of challenging the official record

a. Since whatever you guys are arguing about now didn't occur in a legal proceeding, it is unlikely that I or any attorney can offer you an opinion any more useful than anyone else, one way or another.

b. I don't truly understand what the dispute is here. Are you guys arguing about whether the money order was cashed/processed? (since there's no bank stamps, best evidence is "no," and I'd suggest the burden of proving that they were processed falls on the camp that says so, and I'm not convinced). Are you arguing about whether these witnesses actually existed? ( I'd defer to Tom's obvious genealogical expertise here.)

The bottom line (for me) is that the FBI and the Warren Commission basically wrote words into the witnesses' mouths anyways. Bob is right. To paraphrase from a film of that alleged moon-landing forger Stanley Kubrick, "It's full of lies!"

Thanks for the quick response, Drew. Here is an attorney who takes the opposing view, to yours, posted in the last few hours.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index....9&p=320870
Lance Payette
........
If the Post Office had a concern with the Klein's PMO in 1963, the PMO would have been located via the File Locator Number - which, following the assassination, it was. The "Pay to the order of the First National Bank of Chicago" endorsement, the File Locator Number and the fact that the PMO was located after the assassination precisely where it should have been, in the Federal Records Center, constitutes pretty much the ironclad proof that it was "processed by the US banking system." To preserve the conspiracy theory requires a cast of "creating the fake File Locator Number conspirators" and "placing the PMO within the Federal Records Center conspirators"...

His premise is the postal money order, according to an SS report and the initials on the back of the money order of the two relevant
federal officials the author of the SS report described receiving the money order from on the evening of 23 November, was located and recovered where it should have been....I posted and linked postal bulletins pages supporting that contention, no one has provided proof (or even a regulation describing interruption or rejection due to insufficient endorsement) that a postal money order's bank, federal reserve bank, or US Treasurers computer system processing would not be completed or would be interrupted/rejected if an endorsement requirement was not met, and an additional consideration complimenting the SS recovery report details is this evidence found and presented by this same attorney, Lance Payette.
You can read about the file locator number displayed on the front of this claimed paid $21.45 money order said to be found in the federal records center in Alexandria, VA by Robert H Jackson, at this link,
http://jfk.education/node/13 , or in Lance's original posts.:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index....9&p=319002
Lance Payette - Posted 18 November 2015 - 09:38 PM

OK, one more. This may solve the ten digits at the top of the Klein's money order. It appears that they are the "File Locator Number" placed by the Treasury Department, which would seemingly be a pretty definite indication that the money order was processed.

I found on the website of the Computer History Museum a 1966 paper entitled "The Check Payment and Reconciliation Program of the U.S. Treasury: Present Status and Future Prospects" by George F. Stickney of the Treasury Department. It can be located here: https://www.computer.org/csdl/proceeding...680479.pdf


Five pages into the paper (page 483), the author explains what a "File Locator Number" is and provides a specimen Treasury check with the File Locator Number highlighted. The digits and location appear to be identical to the Klein's money order. .....

Paid postal money orders were destroyed per statute, two years after fiscal
year of payment. They are exceedingly rare. No one has presented one. This is an image of an unpaid one, purchased in 1963 by a collector. Note the absence of the file locator number.:

from: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index....7&p=318833


Drew,
Doesn't it come down to whether, despite much recent presentation
of evidence, the suspicions and theories of D. Josephs, J. Hargrove, J. DiEugenio, and J. Armstrong comprise a well formed argument credibly challenging the core assertion by the Secret Service agent who filed this report?:
[URL="http://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490&relPageId=120&search=alexandria_and%20jackson"]http://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490&relPageId=120&search=alexandria_and%20jackson

[/URL]The SS report linked above is supported by this.:


David Joseph offers a document with an error describing a third person (Secret Service) reporting that the money order was recovered at the Kansas City, MO postal money order center. I've posted much evidence showing this to be irrelevant since no money order sold in Dallas from January 5, 1963, onward, was designed or intended for processing and archiving in Kansas City. I also showed one source ( link ) stating the Kansas City postal money order center closed on Dec., 1, 1963.

From my last post: (see lower right)
http://www.uspostalbulletins.com/PDF/Vol...20order%22

[Jim Hargrove]

Hey Tom.

You're always attacking me and DJ and JA... to be honest, I don't even read your posts anymore.... I know they will be attacks... and will have E_N_D_L_E_S_S G_R_A_P_H_I_C_S ... without any substance.

In 30 words or less. please post your complaint about me. No bullshit graphics... PLEASE!!!