Dean Andrews' Perjury regarding Clay Shaw?

[Nick Rose]

I disagree that the conspiracy could not have been spun that far in advance.

I mean, how else does one explain the Clinton/Jackson incident?

I agree that Shaw and Ferrie might not have known the ultimate aim of that exercise.

But they sure as heck did know after.

Or else why was Ferrie frantic to find if Oswald had used his library card, and to eliminate any photo of him and he together in the CAP?

And why did Ferrie risk multiple counts of perjury and obstruction of justice by lying his head off in his FBI interview?

My feeling is that the N. Orleans stuff was compartmentalized. But once the news hit, these guys knew what had happened and they were a part of it. ANd they did typical CYA stuff. Unawares that the upper level plotters were going to have Oswald killed on short notice anyway.

Jim,
Although I absolutely agree with your second post (Bertrand a certainty, Andrews was called) I am not sure I follow the logic here.

starting at the top,
"how else do you explain the Clinton incident?"
My original comment was that I did not believe the assassination conspiracy was fleshed out much more than a few months in advance (as in, not two years in planning, as Doyle's comment regarding introducing Oswald to Andrews far far in advance would indicate) ... The Clinton incident was early or late August of 63. Only two or three months in advance. But even still, I would have questions about how this trip relates to JFK.

How about this possibility, since, I think it seems *everyone is grasping at straws to explain WHY these three would even be in Clinton.... Although I agree with Tracy, in spirit, that there could have been a civil rights related intelligence mission going on (Marshall John Manchester states the FBI has been there, "just observing"), it seems unnecessary to have the three of them there, it seems redundant to have them AND the FBI there ... And outside of some very lame excuse for sheep dipping Oswald, it makes little sense in my view.

Further, and to the point, the multiple witnesses corroborating Oswald's interest in a state hospital job seem to indicate to me that any focus on Clinton should be regarding he hospital.

SO, HERE IS MY POOR ATTEMPT AT A SOLUTION:
given I think it highly unlikely that Shaw, Ferrie, and Oswald were the genesis of the Kennedy plot, that August 63 may or may not have been too early for anyone to be planning such anyhow, and that little or no sensible reason can be assigned this journey, MAY I SUGGEST
1. Given Ferrie, Oswald, and Shaw can easily be seen to be involved in anti-Castro axtivities
2. Given that such activities can be documented, that "Oswald" was "in Mexico" around this time
3. Given JVBakers cancer-weapon claims
4. Given the multiple corroborations of interest in a hospital job

IS IT NOT AT LEAST **POSSIBLE* that the impetus for the trip to Clinton was to get Oswald a job at a hospital
a. Either as some new form of medical worker related cover/identity to allow him medical access to Cuba, or some such OR
b. Is it possible that this particular hospital also doubled as an army research hospital, or otherwise had in some way, an intelligence/military component that was operationally important for their mission going forward with relation to the assassination of CASTRO, not JFK.

???

maybe I'm already jumping the crazy train I promised to try and not jump, but I can't help but put at least some stock in JVB after she produced her Riley Coffee W2, and the jist of her story comports with what I know to be true of the US MIC interest in a cancer bio weapon. To me it makes more sense intrinsically, that the attempt at a job at this hospital is of relation to the mission we KNOW existed at that time (namely - kill Castro) not to a mission we can only very poorly theorize existed at that time (kill kennedy ) a mission, which if it existed at that time, IMHO, would still be utterly compartmentalized at the top, not at the bottom with LHO, DF, and CS.

[R.K. Locke]

I disagree that the conspiracy could not have been spun that far in advance.

I mean, how else does one explain the Clinton/Jackson incident?

I agree that Shaw and Ferrie might not have known the ultimate aim of that exercise.

But they sure as heck did know after.

Or else why was Ferrie frantic to find if Oswald had used his library card, and to eliminate any photo of him and he together in the CAP?

And why did Ferrie risk multiple counts of perjury and obstruction of justice by lying his head off in his FBI interview?

My feeling is that the N. Orleans stuff was compartmentalized. But once the news hit, these guys knew what had happened and they were a part of it. ANd they did typical CYA stuff. Unawares that the upper level plotters were going to have Oswald killed on short notice anyway.

I broadly agree with this, but the question then arises: who was controlling Shaw and Ferrie?

[Albert Doyle]

But Jim, why do you think Shaw put himself out there trying to get Oswald a lawyer, rather than cutting him loose? If he had kept quiet, he might never have been put on trial.

This might tell you Shaw was deep CIA enough to feel he had the latitude to risk bailing out a fellow operative. It could tell you Shaw saw Oswald's capture as a mistake and was laying the ground work for his legal exoneration. Or it could tell you Shaw was conscious enough of Oswald's being witnessed as being associated with some New Orleans intel heavyweights that he saw it in his own self-interest to defend and free Oswald. It could tell you Shaw was confident enough in the deep-layered corruption surrounding the event that he might actually be able to pull it off. Or he might be able to pull off burying Oswald by introducing a corruptable lawyer as a pseudo defendant. Shaw's actions could be seen as that of a desperate man conscious of the broad witnessing of himself, Oswald, and Ferrie in Clinton and New Orleans. Shaw was prone to such incautious behavior as his slipping with his alias showed.

Shaw had deep connections as any Gladio/Permindex member would. Far beyond any remote compartmentalization as a minor New Orleans operative. This is why the media is forced to ignore Destiny Betrayed because it pretty much proves the conspiracy.

[Albert Doyle]

IS IT NOT AT LEAST **POSSIBLE* that the impetus for the trip to Clinton was to get Oswald a job at a hospital
a. Either as some new form of medical worker related cover/identity to allow him medical access to Cuba, or some such OR
b. Is it possible that this particular hospital also doubled as an army research hospital, or otherwise had in some way, an intelligence/military component that was operationally important for their mission going forward with relation to the assassination of CASTRO, not JFK.

I've got no problem with it, however realize in Destiny Betrayed Perry Russo showed Ferrie and Shaw knew where they were going to be for alibi's on the night of the assassination, meaning they had pre-knowledge. Which is understandable since they were so closely networked with the main conspirators as Garrison proved.

Also, Shaw could have hooked Oswald up with Andrews for his agent provocateur work that had nothing to do with any assassination plot.

[Jim DiEugenio]

Nick, the reason I brought this up is because you said that you did not think the plot was being spun before NSAM 263.

If I recall, NSAM 263 was signed by JFK in October, just one month before the shooting.

[Tracy Riddle]

I think that the first rumblings of a plot to kill JFK began after the Cuban Missile Crisis failed to produce an invasion of Cuba. They escalated in the spring and summer of 1963 as they tried to shut down the exile raids, and Kennedy was increasingly making peaceful moves toward the USSR.

[Albert Doyle]

If Ferrie was in Houston because he thought he was going to fly Oswald out of the country both Ferrie and Shaw may have been operating under the assumption of that plan without knowing it had been betrayed and all of them, including Oswald, had been sucked-in to a frame-up. That would explain Ferrie being in Houston and Shaw trying to get Andrews to lawyer for Oswald. They had to allow the plan was still genuine and there was some kind of screw-up so they had to keep assuming it was still on until they learned otherwise.

[Tracy Riddle]

If Ferrie was in Houston because he thought he was going to fly Oswald out of the country both Ferrie and Shaw may have been operating under the assumption of that plan without knowing it had been betrayed and all of them, including Oswald, had been sucked-in to a frame-up. That would explain Ferrie being in Houston and Shaw trying to get Andrews to lawyer for Oswald. They had to allow the plan was still genuine and there was some kind of screw-up so they had to keep assuming it was still on until they learned otherwise.

Speaking of Ferrie's trip, here's something I noticed a year or so ago. Galveston suddenly became the spot to drive to on the night of the assassination.

David Ferrie will tell the FBI that on the afternoon of 11/23/1963, he spends two hours at the Winterland Rink in Houston, Texas, skating and talking with Chuck Rolland (the owner) about the cost of installing and operating his rink. Later, Rolland will tell FBI agents that Ferrie had called from New Orleans the afternoon of November 22 only to obtain the skating schedule at Winterland, and "at no time did he discuss the cost of equipping or operating an ice skating rink." Furthermore, Rolland will inform the agents that Ferrie does not skate at all while at his rink, but spends the entire stay at Winterland making and receiving calls at a public phone. From Winterland, Ferrie and his two friends go to another Houston skating rink, the Belair. Witnesses will later tell FBI agents the trio does not skate there either. Eventually, Ferrie and his companions will check out of the Alamotel in Houston and drive 100 miles to Galveston. First, however -- David Ferrie calls Carlos Marcello's Town & Country office from the Houston motel.

9:00 PM "On leaving the skating rink they drove out Old Spanish Fort Trail and stopped at a restaurant near Telephone Road. They left this restaurant at approximately 9:00 or shortly after 9:00 PM and decided to drive to Galveston, Texas. He [Dave Ferrie] said that while enroute to Galveston, Texas, they stopped at the Manned Space Craft Center and looked around for about 20 minutes." (FBI interview 11/25/1963)

10:30-11:30 PM David Ferrie and his two companions check into the Driftwood Motel in Galveston, Texas. Ferrie then leaves the motel and stays out until early morning: "They then proceeded to Galveston, Texas, arriving there between 10:30 and 11:30 PM. They immediately checked into Room 117 at the Driftwood Motel, 3128 Seawall Boulevard, Galveston. After checking into the motel they drove around in the vicinity of some old clubs in Galveston, Texas, returning to the motel after midnight and it could have been as late as 1:00 AM." (FBI interview 11/25/1963)

11:44 PM Breck Wall (Billy Ray Wilson), a friend of Jack Ruby and president of the Dallas council of AGVA, receives a long distance call from Ruby at the Galveston number of a Thomas J. McKenna. This is the last long-distance call Ruby is known to have made before shooting Lee Harvey Oswald at Dallas Police Headquarters the following day. Thomas J. McKenna was present when Billy Ray Wilson of Dallas received a long-distance phone call from Ruby at his (McKenna's) telephone in Galveston Tex. The telephone is SO 3-8022 (HSCA)
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive in Galveston?
Mr. WALL. It would be 11 o'clock; somewhere around 11 o'clock.
Mr. SPECTER. How far is it from Dallas to Galveston?
Mr. WALL I didn't make the call from Dallas to Galveston at 2--it must have been 5:30--because it only takes 4 1/2 hours.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the distance?
Mr. WALL. Around 200 miles.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any stops en route?
Mr. WALL. Only for gas.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have dinner?
Mr. WALL. We didn't have dinner. We don't ever eat when we drive to Galveston; just go straight on down.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you eat when you arrived at Galveston?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; we ate at the house.
Mr. SPECTER. At Mr. McKenna's house?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after arriving in Galveston that night?
Mr. WALL. Well, just as nearly, as quickly as we arrived is when we got a telephone call from Jack Ruby. After I talked to him we sat and visited and then went to bed.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did the telephone call from Mr. Ruby last?
Mr. WALL. I would say it couldn't have been more than only 5 minutes. Maybe 3 1/2 minutes.

[Dawn Meredith]

If Ferrie was in Houston because he thought he was going to fly Oswald out of the country both Ferrie and Shaw may have been operating under the assumption of that plan without knowing it had been betrayed and all of them, including Oswald, had been sucked-in to a frame-up. That would explain Ferrie being in Houston and Shaw trying to get Andrews to lawyer for Oswald. They had to allow the plan was still genuine and there was some kind of screw-up so they had to keep assuming it was still on until they learned otherwise.

I disagree. I believe that Ferrie was in Houston giving several different stories as to why is proof that he and Shaw were up to their necks in the plot to assassinate. JG had the goods on Shaw and the CIA knew this and made sure his office was sabotaged, his extraditions were ignored, witnesses were killed, especially Ferrie, who would have had a LOT to tell, imho. Keep in mind that a lot has come out about Shaw since the trial. All favoring Garrison's case.

Dawn

[Marc Ellis]

Good points everybody - especially the OP - about Andrews.

Clinton has never made any sense to me in the context of the assassination. I think it was a Banister sideline project. That makes sense. It's exactly the sort of thing Banister would be doing - fabricating a link between Cuba, Russia and CORE via Oswald. I think I agree with Tracy on that. Registering to vote and getting a job at the hospital would have been a good ruse to get involved with the CORE people, only to be deliberately exposed later as a Soviet/Cuban agent by Banister in his La. Intel. Report or in some other publication.

Shaw? I think he was probably a French Quarter dilettante who dabbled in the right-wing, anti-Castro movements - perhaps partly to pick up young men. He was quite likely a CIA source because of his ITM dealings and frequent travels abroad. But I don't think he loomed large in the assassination plot. It wasn't his nature. He had very little to offer the assassins.

I think Oliver Stone's movie has Shaw about right. In the film, Garrison admitted he didn't have much of a case against Shaw to 'X'. But he was told had to go through with it. He was after bigger game than Clay Shaw and Dean Andrews. For one thing, Garrison might have been one of those who died an early death if he didn't put Shaw on trial.

The OP has made me reconsider Dean Andrews' importance though.