Earl Warren question

[Richard Coleman]

Forgive me if I'm hopelessly behind the curve, but there's a contradiction I've never been able to resolve:

Warren was recruited/blackmailed by LBJ on the basis that Cuba and/or USSR was implicated in the assassination, and this, if revealed, would lead to WW3. Very well. But along the road, he must have become aware that the "communist" connection was bogus and a conspiracy, if any, was domestic (right-wing) in origin. Yet he continued the coverup with the same enthusiasm as when he believed (if he ever did) that nuclear war with the USSR would result from exposing the truth.

IOW, once he realized that WW3 was "off the table", why did he continue to insist that "nothing new" was uncovered by any of the "critics" and the WC findings stood?

I understand of course, that ego would not have permitted him to say publicly, "Yeah, we screwed the pooch on Kennedy. The case should be re-opened; there's lots of evidence of a domestic conspiracy and even treason within our own country."

I also understand that realizing this, he would be horrified at the idea of revealing to the American public that such monstrous disloyalty and institutional corruption exists. The "constitutional republic" myth would have been ripped away, and when push comes to shove, power is loyal to power above all.

Still and all, you'd think he might have leaked a few hints..........

[Lauren Johnson]

Richard,

Once he got on the train, there was no getting off. The train had left the station. Or to use another image,



There are dozens of ways to communicate (if needed), STFU, Earl.

[Drew Phipps]

Still and all, you'd think he might have leaked a few hints..........

I think the blatant problem(s) with the Report and the contradictions contained in the thousands of pages of exhibits might actually BE the hint. What if they followed orders and managed to plant the seeds of public debate at the same time?

[Dawn Meredith]

Still and all, you'd think he might have leaked a few hints..........

I think the blatant problem(s) with the Report and the contradictions contained in the thousands of pages of exhibits might actually BE the hint. What if they followed orders and managed to plant the seeds of public debate at the same time?

I have though this too Drew. I mean FEAR is a strong motivator. Warren must have known if they could kill JFK and get away with it he had better follow the rules.
I have always believed they had blackmail of some sort on him.

Dawn

[Tracy Riddle]

All of the above may be true, but there is also the fact that the '60s was the period of "liberal" dominance in the Washington power structure, and none of them wanted to mess than up.

Eric Norden in 1966 wrote a pretty devastating editorial in The Realist that describes such liberals:

http://www.ep.tc/realist/a-b-set/09.html

"Liberals, however, do not even possess the one virtue of most fanatics: loyalty. Libs pursue their vendettas with vicious vigor, but they are equally prepared to jettison the ostensible object of their devotion when the transcendent interests of the power structure are threatened, as in the case of the Kennedy assassination. The grief of the libs at the loss of their young champion did not extend to a dedication to uncover the truth about his death; as soon as the indicators pointed, not to a lone assassin, but a well-organized conspiracy within agencies of the federal government, including the FBI and the CIA, the liberals looked the other way. JFK could be mourned, but not avenged; too many apple-carts would be upset in the process. At the upper-level of the Liberal Establishment there was a desperate effort, conscious and cynical, to cover up all traces of conspiracy and reassure the American people that all was still for the best in the best of all possible worlds…To even entertain the suspicion that elements of this most wondrous of all governments, whether in the intelligence networks or the political police, could band together to liquidate the presiding High Brahmin, and then coolly cover up their deeds, would shake the average liberal's neat and soothing assumptions about his world to their very roots. Such things could and do happen with depressing regularity in many other countries but never, never, of course, in America. Thus, those who challenged the Establishment's version of events were extremists' with one or another different axes to grind, perhaps paranoid and at the very least victims of a conspiratorial view of history.' History is not, of course, a succession of conspiracies; what liberals conveniently forgot was that there are conspiracies in history. The world, much less America, is not the tidy design of the League of Women Voters; it can happen here. But the blood of John Kennedy was a small price to pay for the preservation of liberal delusions."

[Peter Lemkin]

Warren participated in many egregious commissions [sic] and omissions - but one that stands out in my mind as proof that he did NOT want to know the Truth [or did, and didn't want it known more widely] was when Jack Ruby begged him to move him to Washington so he could tell who put him up to killing Oswald - and more he knew of! Warren did his level best to NOT hear what Ruby had to say - to not listen to someone clearly in on the plot - even if at a very low level. Here is part of the transcript.... a surreal 'shadow-boxing match and exchange' to NOT hear what Ruby knew or had to say.......to NOT move him out of Dallas so he could speak freely.

Mr. RUBY. Is there any way to get me to Washington?
Chief Justice WARREN. I beg your pardon?
Mr. RUBY. Is there any way of you getting me to Washington?
Chief Justice WARREN. I don't know of any. I will be glad to talk to your counsel about what the situation is, Mr. Ruby, when we get an opportunity to talk.
Mr. RUBY. I don't think I will get a fair representation with my counsel, Joe Tonahill. I don't think so. I would like to request that I go to Washington and you take all the tests that I have to take. It is very important.
Mr. TONAHILL. Jack, will you tell him why you don't think you will get a fair representation?
Mr. RUBY. Because I have been over this for the longest time to get the lie detector test. Somebody has been holding it back from me.
Chief Justice WARREN. Mr. Ruby, I might say to you that the lateness of this thing is not due to your counsel. He wrote me, I think, close to 2 months ago and told me that you would be glad to testify and take, I believe he said, any test. I am not sure of that, but he said you would be glad to testify before the Commission.
And I thanked him for the letter. But we have been so busy that this is the first time we have had an opportunity to do it.
But there has been no delay, as far as I know, on the part of Mr. Tonahill in bringing about this meeting. It was our own delay due to the pressures we had on us at the time.
Mr. RUBY. What State are you from, Congressman?
Representative FORD. Michigan. Grand Rapids, Mich.
Chief Justice WARREN. I will be glad to talk that over, if we can. You might go right ahead, if you wish, with the rest of your statement.
Mr. RUBY. All right. I remained at KLIF from that moment on, from the time I got into the building, with Russ Knight. We talked about various things. I brought out the thought of this ad that Bernard Weissman had placed in the newspaper, and I also told Russ the one I admired by Gordon McLendon.
He came out with an editorial about the incident with Adlai Stevenson and all those things. He is one person that will immediately go to bat if anything is wrong. He will clarify it.
And I told Russ Knight there were some other things that were occurring at the time. So I remained there until about 2 a.m., and we all partook of the sandwiches and had a feast there.
And they spliced the various comments they got back and forth of Henry Wade, of Russ Knight's copy--of Russ Knight's items of Henry Wade.
Chief Justice WARREN. Mr. Ruby, this is the young man, Mr. Specter. He is a member of our staff, and he comes from Philadelphia.(Ruby shakes hands with Mr. Specter.)
Mr. RUBY. I am at a disadvantage, gentlemen, telling my story.
Chief Justice WARREN. You were right at the point where you had it about 2 o'clock in the morning, and you had had your feast, as you mentioned, and had talked to these men, and so forth. That was the last that you had told us.

Mr. RUBY. Well, lots of things occurred up to that. They talked pro and con about the tragedy.
At 2 a.m, I left the building. I drove--I was going to go toward the Times Herald Building, because as a result--I very rarely go there for my weekend ad, because once I get the ad into the Morning News, which is the earlier issue, all I have to do is call the newspaper and they transpire the same ad that I had into the newspaper--into the Morning News.
And I promised one of the boys working in the Times Herald Building there--I was in the act, in the business of a twist-board deal I was promoting as a sales item by advertisement and mail order, and I had been evading him, or didn't have time to go out there because it was very late when I left the club, and I didn't want to stop, but because this was an early morning, I thought this would be the right time to go over there, plus the fact of changing my ad I had in the Morning News to the closing of 3 days, that I would go over there and maybe add a little more effectiveness to it in the way I wanted the ad placed.
As I was driving toward the Times Herald with the intention of doing these things, I heard someone honk a horn very loudly, and I stopped. There was a police officer sitting in a car. He was sitting with this young lady that works in my club, Kathy Kay, and they were very much carried away.
And I was carried away; and he had a few beers, and it is so bad about those places open, and I was a great guy to close; and I remained with them--did I tell you this part of it?
Mr. MOORE .I don't recall this part; no.
Mr. RUBY. I didn't tell you this part because at the time I thought a lot of Harry Carlson as a police officer, and either it slipped my mind in telling this, or it was more or less a reason for leaving it out, because I felt I didn't want to involve them in anything, because it was supposed to be a secret that he was going with this young lady. He had marital problems. I don't know if that is why I didn't tell you that. Anyway, I did leave it out. His name is Harry Carlson. Her name is Kathy Kay. And they talked and they carried on, and they thought I was the greatest guy in the world, and he stated they should cut this guy inch by inch into ribbons, and so on.
And she said, "Well, if he was in England, they would drag him through the streets and would have hung him." I forget what she said. I left them after a long delay. They kept me from leaving. They were constantly talking and were in a pretty dramatic mood. They were crying and carrying on.
I went to the building of the Times Herald. I went to the Times Herald--may I read that, Joe? May I please?(Joe Tonahill hands paper to Jack Ruby.)
Mr. TONAHILL. Sam ever get your glasses?
Mr. RUBY. Not yet. [Reading.] "This is the girl that"--what?--"that started Jack off." What is this other word?
Mr. TONAHILL. Culminated?
Mr. RUBY. That is untrue. That is what I wanted to read. (Throwing pad on table.)
Gentlemen, unless you get me to Washington, you can't get a fair shake out of me.
If you understand my way of talking, you have got to bring me to Washington to get the tests.
Do I sound dramatic? Off the beam?
Chief Justice WARREN. No; you are speaking very, very rationally, and I am really surprised that you can remember as much as you have remembered up to the present time.
You have given it to us in detail.
Mr. RUBY. Unless you can get me to Washington, and I am not a crackpot, I have all my senses--I don't want to evade any crime I am guilty of. But Mr. Moore, have I spoken this way when we have talked?
Mr. MOORE. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. Unless you get me to Washington immediately, I am afraid after what Mr. Tonahill has written there, which is unfair to me regarding my testimony here--you all want to hear what he wrote?
Chief Justice WARREN. Yes; you might read it. If you need glasses again, try mine this time (handing glasses to Mr. Ruby).
Mr. RUBY. (putting on glasses). "This is the girl"----
Mr. TONAHILL. "Thing," isn't it?
Mr. RUBY. "This is the thing that started Jack in the shooting."
Mr. TONAHILL. Kathy Kay was talking about Oswald.
Mr. RUBY. You are lying, Joe Tonahill. You are lying.
Mr. TONAHILL. No; I am not.
Mr. RUBY. You are lying, because you know what motivated me. You want to make it that it was a premeditation.
Mr. TONAHILL. No.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; you do.
Mr. TONAHILL. I don't think there was any premeditation, but you go ahead and tell it your way. That is what we want you to do. That is what the Chief Justice wants.
Mr. RUBY. Not when you specify this. You are Senator Rankin?
Mr. RANKIN. No; I am the general counsel for our Commission, Mr. Ruby.
Mr. TONAHILL. You go on and keep telling it down to Caroline and the truth.
Chief Justice WARREN. Mr. Ruby, may I suggest this, that if we are to have any tests, either a lie detector or, as you suggest, maybe a truth serum--I don't know anything about truth serum, but if we are to have it, we have to have something to check against, and we would like to have the rest of your story as you started to tell us, because you are now getting down to the crucial part of it, and it wouldn't be fair to you to have this much of it and then not have the rest.
Mr. RUBY. Because the reason why, Joe knows from the time that I told Attorney Belli, and the story I wanted to tell on the stand, and Mr. Tonahill knows this isn't the time. The thought never entered my mind. He knows it.
Mr. TONAHILL. I didn't say the thought entered your mind. I didn't say that.
Mr. RUBY. You are inferring that.
Mr. TONAHILL. Unconsciously, maybe, is what I meant to say.
Mr. RUBY. Why go back to Friday, Joe?
Mr. TONAHILL. You are going to come right down----
Mr. RUBY. Why go back to Friday? That set me off.
Then it is a greater premeditation than you know is true.
Mr. TONAHILL. I don't say it is premeditation. I never have. I don't think it is.
Mr. RUBY. Because it never entered my mind when they talked about, the officer, cutting him into bits. You would like to have built it up for my defense, but that is not it. I am here to tell the truth.
Mr. TONAHILL. The psychiatrist said that to me.
Mr. RUBY. You want to put that into my thoughts, but it never happened. I took it with a grain of salt what he said at that particular time. Well, it is too bad, Chief Warren, that you didn't get me to your headquarters 6 months ago.
Chief Justice WARREN. Well, Mr. Ruby, I will tell you why we didn't. Because you were then about to be tried and I didn't want to do anything that would prejudice you in your trial. And for that reason, I wouldn't even consider asking you to testify until your trial was over. That is the only reason that we didn't talk to you sooner.
And I wish we had gotten here a little sooner after your trial was over, but I know you had other things on your mind, and we had other work, and it got to this late date.
But I assure you, there is no desire on our part to let this matter go to any late date for any ulterior purpose. I assure you of that. And as I told you at the beginning, if you want a test of some kind made, I will undertake to see that it is done.
Mr. RUBY. You have power to do it, even though the district attorney objects to me getting the tests?
Chief Justice WARREN. Yes; I do.
Mr. RUBY. How soon can it be done?
Chief Justice WARREN. Well, I am not familiar with those things, but we will try to do it expeditiously, you may be sure, because we are trying to wind up the work of this Commission. And I assure you we won't delay it.
Mr. RUBY. Are you staying overnight here, Chief Warren?
Chief Justice WARREN. No; I have to be back, because we have an early session of the Court tomorrow morning.
Mr. RUBY. Is there any way of getting a polygraph here?
Mr. DECKER. May I make a suggestion?
Jack, listen, you and I have had a lot of dealings. Do you want my officers removed from the room while you talk to this Commission?
Mr. RUBY. That wouldn't prove any truth.
Mr. DECKER. These people came several thousand miles to interview you. You have wanted to tell me your story and I have refused to let you tell me. Now be a man with a bunch of men that have come a long way to give you an opportunity to.
You asked me for permission to tell your story, and I told you "No."
This is a supreme investigating committee at this particular time. Now give them your story and be a man, if you want them to deal with you and deal fairly with you.
Mr. RUBY. It is unfair to me unless I get all the facilities to back up what I say.
Mr. DECKER. You tell him your story. Nobody is denying it. You tell this man. He has come a thousand or more miles to listen to you. Now be a man about it.
Mr. MOORE. What I suggest--Jack, at one time I was a polygraph operator, and you would not be able to go through the entire story the way you have here.
So, seriously, you should tell the story and the things you want checked, you can be asked directly. Because you can only answer yes or no on the polygraph examination. So I think in view of what you want, you should tell your story first, and then the points that you want verified, you can be questioned on.
As the sheriff mentioned, the Commission has come a long way to have the opportunity to listen to your story, and I am sure that they know you are telling the truth, in any case.
Mr. RUBY. I wish the President were right here now. It is a terrible ordeal, I tell you that.
Chief Justice WARREN. I am sure it is an ordeal for you, and we want to make it just as easy as we can. That is the reason that we have let you tell your story in your own way without being interrupted.
If you will just proceed with the rest of your statement, I think it would make it a lot easier for us to verify it in the way that you want it to be done.
Mr. RUBY. I don't know how to answer you.
Chief Justice WARREN. Well, you have told us most of what happened up to the time of the incident, and you are almost within, you are just within a few hours of it now.
Mr. RUBY. There is a Saturday.
Chief Justice WARREN. Beg your pardon?
Mr. RUBY. There is a Saturday night. There is a Friday night. This is still only Friday night, Chief.
Chief Justice WARREN. Yes; that is true.
Mr. RUBY. Well, I will go into a certain point, and if I stop, you will have to understand if I stop to get my bearings together.
Chief Justice WARREN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. I am in the Times Herald Building. I go upstairs, naturally.
Chief Justice WARREN. This is about what time?
Mr. RUBY. This, I imagine, is--I left the KLIF at 2 a.m., and I spent an hour with the officer and his girl friend, so it must have been about 3:15 approximately. No; it wasn't. When you are not concerned with time, it could have been 4 o'clock.
Chief Justice WARREN. It doesn't make any difference.
Mr. RUBY. Forty-five minutes difference.
I am up there in the composing room talking to a guy by the name of Pat Gadash. He was so elated that I brought him this twist board, and I had it sealed in a polyethylene bag, but he wanted to see how it is demonstrated, how it was worked.
It is a board that is on a pivot, a ball bearing, and it has a tendency to give you certain exercises in twisting your body. So not that I wanted to get in with the hilarity of frolicking, but he asked me to show him, and the other men gathered around.

When you get into the movement of a ball bearing disk, your body is free to move. I know you look like you are having a gay time, because naturally if your body is so free of moving, it is going to look that way.
I am stating this in that even with my emotional feeling for our beloved President, even to demonstrate the twist board, I did it because someone asked me to.
You follow me, gentlemen, as I describe it?
Chief Justice WARREN. Yes; I do.
Mr. RUBY. Then we placed the ad in, and if I recall, I requested from Pat to put a black border around to show that the ad was in mourning, or something, because we were, everything was in mourning.
Bill, will you do that for me that you asked a minute ago? You said you wanted to leave the room.
Mr. DECKER. I will have everyone leave the room, including myself, if you want to talk about it. You name it, and out we will go.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. DECKER. You want all of us outside?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. DECKER. I will leave Tonahill and Moore. I am not going to have Joe leave.
Mr. RUBY. If you are not going to have Joe leave----
Mr. DECKER. Moore, his body is responsible to you. His body is responsible to you.
Mr. RUBY. Bill, I am not accomplishing anything if they are here, and Joe Tonahill is here. You asked me anybody I wanted out.
Mr. DECKER. Jack, this is your attorney. That is your lawyer.
Mr. RUBY. He is not my lawyer.(Sheriff Decker and law enforcement officers left room.)
Gentleman, if you want to hear any further testimony, you will have to get me to Washington soon, because it has something to do with you, Chief Warren. Do I sound sober enough to tell you this?
Chief Justice WARREN. Yes; go right ahead.
Mr. RUBY. I want to tell the truth, and I can't tell it here. I can't tell it here. Does that make sense to you?
Chief Justice WARREN. Well, let's not talk about sense. But I really can't see why you can't tell this Commission.
Mr. RUBY. What is your name?
Mr. BALL. Joe Ball.
Chief Justice WARREN. Mr. Joe Ball. He is an attorney from Los Angeles who has been working for me.
Mr. RUBY. Do you know Belli too?
Mr. BALL. I know of him.
Mr. RUBY. Ball was working with him. He knows Belli. You know Melvin Belli?
Mr. BALL. I am not acquainted with him.
Chief Justice WARREN. No association of any kind.
Mr. BALL. We practice in different cities.
Chief Justice WARREN. Five hundred miles away. Mr. Ball practices in Long Beach, and Mr. Belli practices in San Francisco. There is positively no connection between anybody in this room, as far as I know, with Mr. Belli. I can assure you of that.
Mr. RUBY. Where do you stand, Moore?
Mr. MOORE. Well, I am assigned to the Commission, Jack.
Mr. RUBY. The President assigned you?
Mr. MOORE. No; my chief did. And I am not involved in the investigation. I am more of a security officer.
Mr. RUBY. Boys, I am in a tough spot, I tell you that.
Mr. MOORE. You recall when I talked to you, there were certain things I asked you not to tell me at the time, for certain reasons, that you were probably going to trial at that time, and I respected your position on that and asked you not to tell me certain things.
Mr. RUBY. But this isn't the place for me to tell what I want to tell.
Mr. MOORE. The Commission is looking into the entire matter, and you are part of it, should be.
Mr. RUBY. Chief Warren, your life is in danger in this city, do you know that?
Chief Justice WARREN. No; I don't know that. If that is the thing that you don't want to talk about, you can tell me, if you wish, when this is all over, just between you and me.
Mr. RUBY. No; I would like to talk to you in private.
Chief Justice WARREN. You may do that when you finish your story. You may tell me that phase of it.
Mr. RUBY. I bet you haven't had a witness like me in your whole investigation, is that correct?
Chief Justice WARREN. There are many witnesses whose memory has not been as good as yours. I tell you that, honestly.
Mr. RUBY. My reluctance to talk---you haven't had any witness in telling the story, in finding so many problems?
Chief Justice WARREN. You have a greater problem than any witness we have had.
Mr. RUBY. I have a lot of reasons for having those problems.
Chief Justice WARREN. I know that, and we want to respect your rights, whatever they may be. And I only want to hear what you are willing to tell us, because I realize that you still have a great problem before you, and I am not trying to press you.
I came here because I thought you wanted to tell us the story, and I think the story should be told for the public, and it will eventually be made public. If you want to do that, you are entitled to do that, and if you want to have it verified as the thing can be verified by a polygraph test, you may have that, too.
I will undertake to do that for you, but at all events we must first have the story that we are going to check it against.
Mr. RUBY. When are you going back to Washington?
Chief Justice WARREN. I am going back very shortly after we finish this hearing--I am going to have some lunch.
Mr. RUBY. Can I make a statement?
Chief Justice WARREN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. If you request me to go back to Washington with you right now, that couldn't be done, could it?
Chief Justice WARREN. No; it could not be done. It could not be done. There are a good many things involved in that, Mr. Ruby.
Mr. RUBY. What are they?
Chief Justice WARREN. Well, the public attention that it would attract, and the people who would be around. We have no place there for you to be safe when we take you out, and we are not law enforcement officers, and it isn't our responsibility to go into anything of that kind.
And certainly it couldn't be done on a moment's notice this way.
Mr. RUBY. Well, from what I read in the paper, they made certain precautions for you coming here, but you got here.
Chief Justice WARREN. There are no precautions taken at all.
Mr. RUBY. There were some remarks in the paper about some crackpots.
Chief Justice WARREN. I don't believe everything I read in the paper.
Mr. MOORE. In that respect, the Chief Justice is in public life. People in public life are well aware they don't please everyone, and they get these threats.
Incidentally, if it is the part about George Senator talking about the Earl Warren Society, the Chief Justice is aware of that phase, and I am sure he would like to hear anything that you have to say if it affects the security.

Chief Justice WARREN. Before you finish the rest of your statement, may I ask you this question, and this is one of the questions we came here to ask you.
Did you know Lee Harvey Oswald prior to this shooting?
Mr. RUBY. That is why I want to take the lie detector test. Just saying no isn't sufficient.
Chief Justice WARREN. I will afford you that opportunity.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Chief Justice WARREN. I will afford you that opportunity. You can't do both of them at one time.
Mr. RUBY. Gentlemen, my life is in danger here. Not with my guilty plea of execution.
Do I sound sober enough to you as I say this?
Chief Justice WARREN. You do. You sound entirely sober.
Mr. RUBY. From the moment I started my testimony, have I sounded as though, with the exception of becoming emotional, have I sounded as though I made sense, what I was speaking about?
Chief Justice WARREN. You have indeed. I understood everything you have said. If I haven't, it is my fault.
Mr. RUBY. Then I follow this up. I may not live tomorrow to give any further testimony. The reason why I add this to this, since you assure me that I have been speaking sense by then, I might be speaking sense by following what I have said, and the only thing I want to get out to the public, and I can't say it here, is with authenticity, with sincerity of the truth of everything and why my act was committed, but it can't be said here.
It can be said, it's got to be said amongst people of the highest authority that would give me the benefit of doubt. And following that, immediately give me the lie detector test after I do make the statement.
Chairman Warren, if you felt that your life was in danger at the moment, how would you feel? Wouldn't you be reluctant to go on speaking, even though you request me to do so?
Chief Justice WARREN. I think I might have some reluctance if I was in your position, yes; I think I would. I think I would figure it out very carefully as to whether it would endanger me or not.
If you think that anything that I am doing or anything that I am asking you is endangering you in any way, shape, or form, I want you to feel absolutely free to say that the interview is over.
Mr. RUBY. What happens then? I didn't accomplish anything.
Chief Justice WARREN. No; nothing has been accomplished.
Mr. RUBY. Well, then you won't follow up with anything further?
Chief Justice WARREN. There wouldn't be anything to follow up if you hadn't completed your statement.
Mr. RUBY. You said you have the power to do what you want to do is that correct?
Chief Justice WARREN. Exactly.
Mr. RUBY. Without any limitations?
Chief Justice WARREN. Within the purview of the Executive order which established the Commission. We have the right to take testimony of anyone we want in this whole situation, and we have the right, if we so choose to do it, to verify that statement in any way that we wish to do it.
Mr. RUBY. But you don't have a right to take a prisoner back with you when you want to?
Chief Justice WARREN. No; we have the power to subpena witnesses to Washington if we want to do it, but we have taken the testimony of 200 or 300 people, I would imagine, here in Dallas without going to Washington.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; but those people aren't Jack Ruby.
Chief Justice WARREN. No; they weren't.
Mr. RUBY. They weren't.
Chief Justice WARREN. Now I want you to feel that we are not here to take any advantage of you, because I know that you are in a delicate position, and unless you had indicated not only through your lawyers but also through your sister, who wrote a letter addressed either to me or to Mr. Rankin saying that you wanted to testify before the Commission, unless she had told us that, I wouldn't have bothered you.
Because I know you do have this case that is not yet finished, and I wouldn't jeopardize your position by trying to insist that you testify. So I want you to feel that you are free to refrain from testifying any time you wish.

But I will also be frank with you and say that I don't think it would be to your advantage to tell us as much as you have and then to stop and not tell us the rest. I can't see what advantage that would give you.
Mr. RUBY. The thing is this, that with your power that you have, Chief Justice Warren, and all these gentlemen, too much time has gone by for me to give you any benefit of what I may say now.
Chief Justice WARREN. No; that isn't a fact, because until we make our findings for the Commission, and until we make our report on the case, it is not too late.
And there are other witnesses we have who are yet to be examined. So from our standpoint, it is timely. We are not handicapped at all by the lateness of your examination.
Mr. RUBY. Well, it is too tragic to talk about.
Mr. RANKIN. Isn't it true that we waited until very late in our proceedings to talk to Mrs. Kennedy?
Chief Justice WARREN. Yes; I might say to you that we didn't take Mrs. Kennedy's statement until day before yesterday. Mr. Rankin and I took her testimony then.
So we are not treating you different from any other witness.
Mr. RUBY. I tell you, gentlemen, my whole family is in jeopardy. My sisters, as to their lives.
Chief Justice WARREN. Yes?
Mr. RUBY. Naturally, I am a foregone conclusion. My sisters Eva, Eileen, and Mary, I lost my sisters.
My brothers Sam, Earl, Hyman, and myself naturally--my in-laws, Harold Kaminsky, Marge Ruby, the wife of Earl, and Phyllis, the wife of Sam Ruby, they are in jeopardy of loss of their lives. Yet they have, just because they are blood related to myself--does that sound serious enough to you, Chief Justice Warren?
Chief Justice WARREN. Nothing could be more serious, if that is the fact. But your sister, I don't know whether it was your sister Eva or your other sister----
Mr. RUBY. Eileen wrote you a letter.
Chief Justice WARREN. Wrote the letter to me and told us that you would like to testify, and that is one of the reasons that we came down here.
Mr. RUBY. But unfortunately, when did you get the letter, Chief Justice Warren?
Chief Justice WARREN. It was a long time ago, I admit. I think it was, let's see, roughly between 2 and 3 months ago.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Chief Justice WARREN. I think it was; yes.
Mr. RUBY. At that time when you first got the letter and I was begging Joe Tonahill and the other lawyers to know the truth about me, certain things that are happening now wouldn't be happening at this particular time.

Chief Justice WARREN. Yes?
Mr. RUBY. Because then they would have known the truth about Jack Ruby and his emotional breakdown.
Chief Justice WARREN. Yes?
Mr. RUBY. Of why that Sunday morning--that thought never entered my mind prior to that Sunday morning when I took it upon myself to try to be a martyr or some screwball, you might say.
But I felt very emotional and very carried away for Mrs. Kennedy, that with all the strife she had gone through--I had been following it pretty well--that someone owed it to our beloved President that she shouldn't be expected to come back to face trial of this heinous crime.
And I have never had the chance to tell that, to back it up, to prove it.
Consequently, right at this moment I am being victimized as a part of a plot in the.world's worst tragedy and crime at this moment.
Months back had I been given a chance--I take that back. Sometime back a police officer of the Dallas Police Department wanted to know how I got into the building. And I don't know whether I requested a lie detector test or not, but my attorney wasn't available.
When you are a defendant in the case, you say "speak to your attorney," you know. But that was a different time. It was after the trial, whenever it happened.
At this moment, Lee Harvey Oswald isn't guilty of committing the crime of assassinating President Kennedy. Jack Ruby is.
How can I fight that, Chief Justice Warren?
Chief Justice WARREN. Well now, I want to say, Mr. Ruby, that as far as this Commission is concerned, there is no implication of that in what we are doing.
Mr. RUBY. All right, there is a certain organization here----
Chief Justice WARREN. That I can assure you.
Mr. RUBY. There is an organization here, Chief Justice Warren, if it takes my life at this moment to say it, and Bill Decker said be a man and say it, there is a John Birch Society right now in activity, and Edwin Walker is one of the top men of this organization--take it for what it is worth, Chief Justice Warren.
Unfortunately for me, for me giving the people the opportunity to get in power, because of the act I committed, has put a lot of people in jeopardy with their lives.
Don't register with you, does it?
Chief Justice WARREN. No; I don't understand that.
Mr. RUBY. Would you rather I just delete what I said and just pretend that nothing is going on?
Chief Justice WARREN. I would not indeed. I am only interested in what you want to tell this Commission.That is all I am interested in.
Mr. RUBY. Well, I said my life, I won't be living long now. I know that. My family's lives will be gone. When I left my apartment that morning----
Chief Justice WARREN. What morning?
Mr. RUBY. Sunday morning.
Chief Justice WARREN. Sunday morning.
Mr. RUBY. Let's go back. Saturday I watched Rabbi Seligman. Any of you watch it that Saturday morning?
Chief Justice WARREN. No; I didn't happen to hear it.
Mr. RUBY. He went ahead and eulogized that here is a man that fought in every battle, went to every country, and had to come back to his own country to be shot in the back [starts crying]. I must be a great actor, I tell you that.
Chief Justice WARREN. No.
Mr. RUBY. That created a tremendous emotional feeling for me, the way he said that. Prior to all the other times, I was carried away.
Then that Saturday night, I didn't do anything but visit a little club over here and had a Coca-Cola, because I was sort of depressed. A fellow that owns the Pago Club, Bob Norton, and he knew something was wrong with me in the certain mood I was in.
And I went home and that weekend, the Sunday morning, and saw a letter to Caroline, two columns about a 16-inch area. Someone had written a letter to Caroline. The most heartbreaking letter. I don't remember the contents. Do you remember that?
Mr. MOORE. I think I saw it.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; and alongside that letter on the same sheet of paper was a small comment in the newspaper that, I don't know how it was stated, that Mrs. Kennedy may have to come back for the trial of Lee Harvey Oswald. That caused me to go like I did; that caused me to go like I did.
I don't know, Chief Justice, but I got so carried away. And I remember prior to that thought, there has never been another thought in my mind; I was never malicious toward this person. No one else requested me to do anything. I never spoke to anyone about attempting to do anything. No subversive organization gave me any idea. No underworld person made any effort to contact me. It all happened that Sunday morning.
The last thing I read was that Mrs. Kennedy may have to come back to Dallas for trial for Lee Harvey Oswald, and, I don't know what bug got ahold of me. I don't know what it is, but I am going to tell the truth word for word.

I am taking a pill called Preludin. It is a harmless pill, and it is very easy to get in the drugstore. It isn't a highly prescribed pill. I use it for dieting.
I don't partake of that much food. I think that was a stimulus to give me an emotional feeling that suddenly I felt, which was so stupid, that I wanted to show my love for our faith, being of the Jewish faith, and I never used the term and I don't want to go into that--suddenly the feeling, the emotional feeling came within me that someone owed this debt to our beloved President to save her the ordeal of coming back. I don't know why that came through my mind.
And I drove past Main Street, past the County Building, and there was a crowd already gathered there. And I guess I thought I knew he was going to be moved at 10 o'clock, I don't know. I listened to the radio; and I passed a crowd and it looked--I am repeating myself--and I took it for granted he had already been moved.
And I parked my car in the lot across from the Western Union. Prior to that, I got a call from a little girl--she wanted-some money--that-worked for me, and I said, "Can't you wait till payday?" And she said, "Jack, you are going to be closed."
So my purpose was to go to the Western Union--my double purpose but the thought of doing, committing the act wasn't until I left my apartment.
Sending the wire was when I had the phone call--or the money order.
I drove down Main Street--there was a little incident I left out, that I started to go down a driveway, but I wanted to go by the wreaths, and I saw them and started to cry again.
Then I drove, parked the car across from the Western Union, went into the Western Union, sent the money order, whatever it was, walked the distance from the Western Union to the ramp--I didn't sneak in. I didn't linger in there.
I didn't crouch or hide behind anyone, unless the television camera can make it seem that way.
There was an officer talking--I don't know what rank he had--talking to a Sam Pease in a car parked up on the curb.
I walked down those few steps, and there was the person that--I wouldn't say I saw red--it was a feeling I had for our beloved President and Mrs. Kennedy, that he was insignificant to what my purpose was.
And when I walked down the ramp--I would say there was an 8-foot clearance--not that I wanted to be a hero, or I didn't realize that even if the officer would have observed me, the klieg lights, but I can't take that.
I did not mingle with the crowd. There was no one near me when I walked down that ramp, because if you will time the time I sent the money order, I think it was 10:17 Sunday morning.
I think the actual act was committed--I take that back--was it 11 o'clock? You should know this.
Mr. MOORE. 11: 21.
Mr. RUBY. No; when Oswald was shot.
Mr. MOORE. I understood it to be 11:22.
Mr. RUBY. The clock stopped and said 11:21. I was watching on that thing; yes. Then it must have been 11:17, closer to 18. That is the timing when I left the Western Union to the time of the bottom of the ramp.
You wouldn't have time enough to have any conspiracy, to be self-saving, to mingle with the crowd, as it was told about me.
I realize it is a terrible thing I have done, and it was a stupid thing, but I just was carried away emotionally. Do you follow that?
Chief Justice WARREN. Yes; I do indeed, every word.
Mr. RUBY. I had the gun in my right hip pocket, and impulsively, if that is the correct word here, I saw him, and that is all I can say. And I didn't care what happened to me.
I think I used the words, "You killed my President, you rat." The next thing, I was down on the floor.
I said, "I am Jack Ruby. You all know me."
I never used anything malicious, nothing like s.o.b. I never said that I wanted to get three more off, as they stated.
The only words, and I was highly emotional; to Ray Hall--he interrogated more than any other person down there--all I believe I said to him was, "I didn't want Mrs. Kennedy to come back to trial."
And I forget what else. And I used a little expression like being of the Jewish faith, I wanted to show that we love our President, even though we are not of the same faith.
And I have a friend of mine do you mind if it is a slipshod story?
Chief Justice WARREN. No; you tell us in your own way.
Mr. RUBY. A fellow whom I sort of idolized is of the Catholic faith, and a gambler. Naturally in my business you meet people of various backgrounds. And the thought came, we were very close, and I always thought a lot of him, and I knew that Kennedy, being Catholic, I knew how heartbroken he was, and even his picture of this Mr. McWillie flashed across me, because I have a great fondness for him.
All that blended into the thing that, like a screwball, the way it turned out, that I thought that I would sacrifice myself for the few moments of saving Mrs. Kennedy the discomfiture-of coming back to trial.
Now all these things of my background, I should have been the last person in the world to want to be a martyr. It happens, doesn't it, Chief Warren?
I mean, for instance, I have been in the night club business, a burlesque house. It was a means of a livelihood. I knew persons of notorious backgrounds years ago in Chicago. I was with the union back in Chicago, and I left the union when I found out the notorious organization had moved in there. It was in 1940.
Then recently, I had to make so many numerous calls that I am sure you know of. Am I right? Because of trying to survive in my business.
My unfair competition had been running certain shows that we were restricted to run by regulation of the union, but they violated all the rules of the union, and I didn't violate it, and consequently I was becoming insolvent because of it.
All those calls were made with only, in relation to seeing if they can help out, with the American Guild of Variety Artists. Does that confirm a lot of things you have heard?
Every person I have called, and sometimes you may not even know a person intimately, you sort of tell them, well, you are stranded down here and you want some help--if they know of any official of the American Guild of Variety Artists to help me. Because my competitors were putting me out of business.
I even flew to New York to see Joe Glazer, and he called Bobby Faye. He was the national president. That didn't help. He called Barney Ross and Joey Adams. All these phone calls were related not in anyway involved with the underworld, because I have been away from Chicago 17 years down in Dallas.
As a matter of fact, I even called a Mr.--hold it before I say it--headed the American Federation of Labor--I can't think--in the State of Texas--Miller.
Chief Justice WARREN. I don't know.
Mr. RUBY. Is there a Deutsch I. Maylor? I called a Mr. Maylor here in Texas to see if he could help me out.
I want to set you gentlemen straight on all the telephone calls I had. This was a long time prior to what has happend. And the only association I had with those calls, the only questions that I inquired about, was if they could help me with the American Guild of Variety Artists, to see that they abolished it, because it was unfair to professional talent, abolish them from putting on their shows in Dallas. That is the only reason I made those calls. Where do we go from there?
Chief Justice WARREN. Well, I will go back to the original question that I asked you. Did you ever know Oswald?
Mr. RUBY. No; let me add--you are refreshing my mind about a few things.
Can I ask one thing? Did you all talk to Mr. McWillie? I am sure you have.
VOICE. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. He always wanted me to come down to Havana, Cuba; invited me down there, and I didn't want to leave my business because I had to watch over it.
He was a key man over the Tropicana down there. That was during our good times. Was in harmony with our enemy of our present time.
Chief Justice WARREN. Yes?
Mr. RUBY. I refused. I couldn't make it. Finally he sent me tickets to come down, airplane tickets.
I made the trip down there via New Orleans, and so I stayed at the Volk's Apartments, and I was with him constantly.
And I was bored with the gambling, because I don't gamble, and there is nothing exciting unless you can speak their language, which is Spanish, I believe.
And that was the only environment. That was in August of 1959.
Any thought of ever being close to Havana, Cuba, I called him frequently because he was down there, and he was the last person to leave, if I recall, when they had to leave, when he left the casino.
As a matter of fact, on the plane, if I recall, I had an article he sent me, and I wanted to get it published because I idolized McWillie. He is a pretty nice boy, and I happened to be idolizing him.
When the plane left Havana and landed in the United States, some schoolteacher remarked that the United States is not treating Castro right. When they landed in the United States, this Mr. Louis McWillie slugged this guy for making that comment.
So I want you to know, as far as him having any subversive thoughts, and I wanted Tony to put it in the paper here. That is how much I thought of Mr. McWillie. And that is my only association.
The only other association with him was, there was a gentleman here that sells guns. He has a hardware store on Singleton Avenue.
Have I told this to you gentlemen? It is Ray's Hardware. His name is Ray Brantley.
This was--I don't recall when he called me, but he was a little worried of the new regime coming in, and evidently he wanted some protection.
He called me or sent me a letter that I should call Ray Brantley. He wanted some four little Cobra guns--big shipment.
So me, I should say myself rather, feeling no harm, I didn't realize, because he wasn't sending them to me, and I thought there was no crime, the man wanted protection, he is earning a livelihood.
I called Ray Brantley and I said, "Ray, McWillie called me." I don't remember if he sent me a letter or he called. He said he wants four little Cobras, or something like that.
He said "I know Mac. I have been doing business with him for a long time." Meaning with reference to when he was living in Texas. He did a lot of hunting and things like that.
Chief Justice WARREN. Yes?
Mr. RUBY. That was the only relationship I had of any mention, outside of phone calls, to Mr. McWillie, or any person from Havana, Cuba.
Chief Justice WARREN. When was that?
Mr. RUBY. Now the guns--am I correct? Did you ever go to check on it? On Ray Brantley?
Mr. MOORE. No.
Mr. RUBY. He denies I ever called. Evidently he feels, maybe he feels it would be illegal to send guns out of the country. I don't know if you gentlemen know the law. I don't know the law.
Chief Justice WARREN. I don't know.
Mr. RUBY. I kept--did I tell you this, Joe, about this?
Mr. TONAHILL. Yes; you did.
Mr. RUBY. That I wanted someone to go to Ray Brantley?
Mr. TONAHILL. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. When Phil Burleson came back with a letter signed, an affidavit that Ray Brantley said he never did receive a call from me, and the only gun he sent to McWillie was to the Vegas, but it came back that they didn't pick it up because it was a c.o.d. order.
This definitely would do me more harm, because if I tell my story that I called Ray Brantley, and he denies that he ever got a call from me, definitely that makes it look like I am hiding something.
Haven't I felt that right along, Joe?
Mr. TONAHILL. You sure have, Jack.
Mr. RUBY. Now, the reason I am telling you these things, I never knew Lee Harvey Oswald. The first time I ever have seen him was the time in the assembly room when they brought him out, when he had some sort of a shiner on his eye.
Chief Justice WARREN. When was that little incident about the Cobras? About what year? That is all I am interested in.
Mr. RUBY. Could have been prior to the early part of 1959.
Chief Justice WARREN. Yes; all right.
Mr. RUBY. That is the only call I made. And as a matter of fact, I didn't even follow up to inquire of this Mr. Brantley, whether he received it or what the recourse was. That is why I tell you, Chief Justice Warren--who is this new gentleman, may I ask?
Mr. RANKIN. This is Mr. Storey from your community, a lawyer who is working with the attorney general, and Mr. Jaworski, in connection with watching the work of the Commission so that they will be satisfied as to the quality of the work done insofar as the State of Texas is concerned.
(Pause for reporter to change paper, and Ruby asked about one of the gentlemen, to which Chief Justice Warren replied as follows):
Chief Justice WARREN (referring to Mr. Specter). He has been working with us on the Commission since very close to the beginning now.
Mr. RANKIN. How long did you spend in Cuba on this trip?
Mr. RUBY. Eight days. A lot of your tourists were there. As a matter of fact, a lot of group tourists were going down, students of schools.
I mean, he had a way of purchasing tickets from Havana that I think he purchased them at a lesser price. He bought them from the travel agent in the Capri Hotel. He bought them--did you meet McWillie?
Mr. MOORE. I didn't.
Mr. RANKIN. He was checked by the Commission in connection with this work.
Chief Justice WARREN. There was some story in one of the papers that you had been interested in shipping jeeps down to Cuba. Was there anything to that at all?
Mr. RUBY. No; but this was the earlier part, when the first time Castro had ever invaded Cuba. There was even a Government article that they would need jeeps. I don't recall what it was, but I never had the facilities or the capabilities of knowing where to get jeeps.
But probably in conversation with other persons--you see, it is a new land, and they have to have a lot of things. As a matter of fact, the U.S. Government was wanting persons to help them at that particular time when they threw out the dictator, Batista.

And one particular time there was a gentleman that smuggled guns to Castro. I think I told you that, Mr. Moore; I don't remember.
Mr. MOORE. I don't recall that.
Mr. RUBY. I think his name was Longley out of Bay--something--Texas, on the Bayshore. And somehow he was, I read the article about him, that he was given a jail term for smuggling guns to Castro. This is the early part of their revolution.
Chief Justice WARREN. Before the Batista government fell?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think he had a boat, and he lived somewhere in Bay something, Bayshore, in the center part of Texas. Do you know him, Mr. Storey? Do you know this man?
Mr. STOREY. No; I don't know him.
Mr. RUBY. How can I prove my authenticity of what I have stated here today?
Chief Justice WARREN. Well, you have testified under oath, and I don't even know that there is anything to disprove what you have said.
Mr. RUBY. No; because I will say this. You don't know if there is anything to disprove, but at this moment, there is a certain organization in this area that has been indoctrinated, that I am the one that was in the plot to assassinate our President.
Mr. RANKIN. Would you tell us what that is?
Mr. RUBY. The John Birch Society.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what basis you have for that, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Just a feeling of it. Mr. Warren, you don't recall when I--Friday night after leaving the Times Herald. I went to my apartment and very impatiently awakened George Senator. As a matter of fact, used the words, as I state, "You will have to get up, George. I want you to go with me."
And he had been in bed for a couple of hours, which was about, I imagine, about 4:30 or a quarter to 5 in the morning.
And I called the club and I asked this kid Larry if he knew how to pack a Polaroid, and he said "Yes."
And I said, "Get up." And we went down and picked Up Larry. And in the meantime, I don't recall if I stopped at the post office to find out his box number of this Bernard Weissman. I think the box number was 1792, or something to that; and then there was, it came to my mind when I left the Times Herald--I am skipping back--why I had awakened George.
I recall seeing a sign on a certain billboard "Impeach Earl Warren." You have heard something about that?
Chief Justice WARREN. I read something in the paper, yes; that is all.
Mr. RUBY. And it came from New Bedford, or Massachusetts; I don't recall what the town was.
And there was a similar number to that, but I thought at the time it would be the same number of 1792, but it was 1757.
That is the reason I went down there to take the Polaroid picture of it, because of that remaining in the city at the time.
What happened to the picture, I don't know. I asked Jim Bowie or Alexander to tell you.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you know Weissman before that?
Mr. RUBY. Never knew him. When I said Jim Bowie, no one says a word.
Mr. BOWIE. We never have seen them.
Mr. RUBY. They were in my person.
Mr. BOWIE. But no evidence came?
Mr. RUBY. No; it did not, never. As a matter of fact, I went to the post office to check on box 1792. I even inquired with the man in charge of where you purchase the boxes, and I said to him, "Who bought this box?"
And he said, "I can't give you the information. All I know is, it is a legitimate business box purchase."
And I checked the various contents of mail there.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you know Officer Tippit?
Mr. RUBY. I knew there was three Tippits on the force. The only one I knew used to work for the special services, and I am certain this wasn't the Tippit, this wasn't the man.
Mr. RANKIN. The man that was murdered. There was a story that you were seen sitting in your Carousel Club with Mr. Weissman, Officer Tippit, and another who has been called a rich oil man, at one time shortly before the assassination. Can you tell us anything about that?
Mr. RUBY. Who was the rich oil man?
Mr. RANKIN. Can you remember? We haven't been told. We are just trying to find out anything that you know about him.
Mr. RUBY. I am the one that made such a big issue of Bernard Weissman's ad. Maybe you do things to cover up, if you are capable of doing it.
As a matter of fact, Saturday afternoon we went over to the Turf Bar lounge, and it was a whole hullabaloo, and I showed the pictures "Impeach Earl Warren" to Bellocchio, and he saw the pictures and got very emotional.
And Bellocchio said, "Why did the newspaper take this ad of Weissman?"
And Bellocchio said, "I have got to leave Dallas."
And suddenly after making that statement, I realized it is his incapability, and suddenly you do things impulsively, and suddenly you realize if you love the city, you stay here and you make the best of it. And there were witnesses.
I said, "The city was good enough for you all before this. Now you feel that way about it." And that was Bellocchio.
As far as Tippit, it is not Tippitts, it is not Tippitts it is Tippit.
Mr. RANKIN. This Weissman and the rich oil man, did you ever have a conversation with them?
Mr. RUBY. There was only a few. Bill Rudman from the YMCA, and I haven't seen him in years.
And there is a Bill Howard, but he is not a rich oil man. He owns the Stork Club now. He used to dabble in oil.
Chief Justice WARREN. This story was given by a lawyer by the name of Mark Lane, who is representing Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald, and it was in the paper, so we subpenaed him, and he testified that someone had given him information to the effect that a week or two before President Kennedy was assassinated, that in your Carousel Club you and Weissman and Tippit, Officer Tippit, the one who was killed, and a rich oil man had an interview or conversation for an hour or two.
And we asked him who it was that told him, and he said that it was confidential and he couldn't tell at the moment, but that he would find out for us if whether he could be released or not from his confidential relationship.

He has never done it, and we have written him several letters asking him to disclose the name of that person, and he has never complied.
Mr. RUBY. Isn't that foolish? If a man is patriotic enough in the first place, who am I to be concerned if he wasn't an informer.
I am incarcerated, nothing to be worried about anyone hurting me.
Chief Justice WARREN. Mr. Ruby, I am not questioning your story at all. I wanted you to know the background of this thing, and to know that it was with us only hearsay. But I did feel that our record should show that we would ask you the question and that you would answer it, and you have answered it.
Mr. RUBY. How many days prior to the assassination was that?
Chief Justice WARREN. My recollection is that it was a week or two. Is that correct?
Mr. RUBY. Did anyone have any knowledge that their beloved President was going to visit here prior to that time, or what is the definite time that they knew he was coming to Dallas?
Chief Justice WARREN. Well, I don't know just what those dates are.
Mr. RUBY. I see.
Chief Justice WARREN. I just don't know. Well, we wanted to ask you that question, because this man had so testified, and we have been trying ever since to get him to give the source of his information, but he will not do it, so we will leave that matter as it is.
Mr. RUBY. No; I am as innocent regarding any conspiracy as any of you gentlemen in the room, and I don't want anything to be run over lightly. I want you to dig into it with any biting, any question that might embarrass me, or anything that might bring up my background, which isn't so terribly spotted--I have never been a criminal--I have never been in jail---I know when you live in the city of Chicago and you are in the livelihood of selling tickets to sporting events, your lucrative patrons are some of these people, but you don't mean anything to those people. You may know them as you get acquainted with them at the sporting events or the ball park.
Chief Justice WARREN. The prizefights?
Mr. RUBY. The prizefights. If that was your means of livelihood, yet you don't have no other affiliation with them, so when I say I know them, or what I have read from stories of personalities that are notorious, that is the extent of my involvement in any criminal activity.
I have never been a bookmaker. I have never stolen for a living. I am not a gangster. I have never used a goon squad for Union activities.
All I was was a representative to sound out applications for the American Federation of Labor, and if the employees would sign it, we would accept them as members.
I never knew what a goon looked like in Chicago, with the exception when I went to the service.
I never belonged to any subversive organization. I don't know any subversive people that are against my beloved country.
Mr. RANKIN. You have never been connected with the Communist Party?
Mr. RUBY. Never have. All I have ever done in my life--I had a very rough start in life, but anything I have done, I at least try to do it in good taste, whatever I have been active in.
Mr. RANKIN. There was a story that you had a gun with you during the showup that you described in the large room there.
Mr. RUBY. I will be honest with you. I lied about it. It isn't so. I didn't have a gun. But in order to make my defense more accurate, to save your life, that is the reason that statement was made.
Mr. RANKIN. It would be quite helpful to the Commission if you could--in the first place, I want to get the trip to Cuba. Was that in 1959?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; because I had to buy a $2 ticket, a pass to get through Florida.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any other trip to Cuba?
Mr. RUBY. Never; that is the only one that I made.
I stayed at the Volk's Apartments with Mr. McWillie, lived in his apartment. Ate directly in a place called Wolf's, downstairs. Wouldn't know how to speak their language. I wouldn't know how to communicate with them.
I probably had two dates from meeting some young ladies I got to dancing with, because my dinners were served in the Tropicana.
One thing I forgot to tell you--you are bringing my mind back to a few things--the owners, the greatest that have been expelled from Cuba, are the Fox brothers. They own the Tropicana.
Mr. RANKIN. Who are the Fox brothers?
Mr. RUBY. Martin Fox and I can't think of the other name.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know where they are located now?
Mr. RUBY. They are in Miami, Fla. They know everything about McWillie, I heard; and know the officials.
I met McWillie because he came to the club, and he came to the club to look over the show. And you get to talk to people and meet a lot of different types of people.
The Fox brothers came to Dallas--I don't know which one it was--to collect a debt that some man owed the Cotton Gin Co. here. Do you know their name, Mr. Bowie?
Mr. BOWIE. Murray, or something.
Mr. RUBY. He gave some bad checks on a gambling debt, and they came to visit me. The lawyer, I think, is Mark Lane. That is the attorney that was killed in New York?
Chief Justice WARREN. That is the fellow who represents, or did represent Mrs. Marguerite Oswald. I think I read in the paper where he no longer represents her.
Mr. RANKIN. He is still alive though.
Chief Justice WARREN. Oh, yes.
Mr. RUBY. There was one Lane that was killed in a taxicab. I thought he was an attorney in Dallas.
Chief Justice WARREN. That was a Dave Lane.
Mr. RUBY. There is a very prominent attorney in Dallas, McCord. McCord represents the Fox brothers here. They called me because the Fox brothers wanted to see me, and I came down to the hotel.
And Mrs. McWilliep--Mr. McWillie was married to her at that time--and if I recall, I didn't show them off to the airport at that time.
This is when they were still living in Havana, the Fox brothers. We had dinner at--how do you pronounce that restaurant at Love Field? Luau? That serves this Chinese food.
Dave McCord, I was in his presence, and I was invited out to dinner, and there was an attorney by the name of Leon. Is he associated with McCord?
And there was a McClain.
Chief Justice WARREN. Alfred was killed in a taxi in New York.
Mr. RUBY. He was at this dinner meeting I had with McCord. I don't know if Mrs. McWillie was along. And one of the Fox brothers, because they had just been awarded the case that this person owns, this Gin Co., that was compelled to pay off.
Mr. RANKIN. I think, Mr. Ruby, it would be quite helpful to the Commission if you could tell, as you recall it, just what you said to Mr. Sorrels and the others after the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald. Can you recall that?
Mr. RUBY. The only one I recall Mr. Sorrels in, there were some incorrect statements made at this time.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what you said?
Congressman FORD. First, tell us when this took place.
Mr. RANKIN. How soon after the shooting occurred?
Mr. RUBY. Well, Ray Hall was the first one that interrogated me. Wanted to know my whole background.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us how soon it was? Within a few minutes after the shooting?
Mr. RUBY. No; I waited in a little room there somewhere upstairs in--I don't know what floor it was. I don't recall.
Mr. RANKIN. Where did this occur, on the third floor?
Mr. RUBY. One of those floors. I don't know whether it was the third or second. If you are up on an elevator----
Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us any idea of the time after the shooting?
Mr. RUBY. I spent an hour with Mr. Hall, Ray Hall. And I was very much, I was very much broken up emotionally, and I constantly repeated that I didn't want Mrs. Kennedy to come back to trial, and those were my words, constantly repeated to Mr. Hall.
And I heard there was a statement made--now I am skipping--and then I gave Mr. Hall my complete background about things he wanted to know, my earlier background going back from the years, and I guess there was nothing else to say to Hall because as long as I stated why I did it--it is not like planning a crime and you are confessing something. I already confessed, and all it took is one sentence why I did it.
Now what else could I have said that you think I could have said? Refresh my memory a little bit.
Mr. RANKIN. There was a conversation with Mr. Sorrels in which you told him about the matter. Do you remember that?
Mr. RUBY. The only thing I ever recall I said to Mr. Ray Hall and Sorrels was, I said, "Being of Jewish faith, I wanted to show my love for my President and his lovely wife."
After I said whatever I said, then a statement came out that someone introduced Mr. Sorrels to me and I said, "What are you, a newsman?" Or something to that effect. Which is really--what I am trying to say is, the way it sounded is like I was looking for publicity and inquiring if you are a newsman, I wanted to see you.
But I am certain--I don't recall definitely, but I know in my right mind, because I know my motive for doing it, and certainly to gain publicity to take a chance of being mortally wounded, as I said before, and who else could have timed it so perfectly by seconds.
If it were timed that way, then someone in the police department is guilty of giving the information as to when Lee Harvey Oswald was coming down.
I never made a statement. I never inquired from the television man what time is Lee Harvey Oswald coming down. Because really, a man in his right mind would never ask that question. I never made the statement "I wanted to get three more off.
Someone had to do it. You wouldn't do it." I never made those statements.
I never called the man by any obscene name, because as I stated earlier, there was no malice in me. He was insignificant, to my feelings for my love for Mrs. Kennedy and our beloved President. He was nothing comparable to them, so I can't explain it.
I never used any words--as a matter of fact, there were questions at the hearing with Roy Pryor and a few others--I may have used one word "a little weasel" or something, but I didn't use it, I don't remember, because Roy said it. If he said I did, I may have said it.
I never made the statement to anyone that I intended to get him. I never used the obscene words that were stated.
Anything I said was with emotional feeling of I didn't want Mrs. Kennedy to come back to trial.
Representative FORD. It has been alleged that you went out to Parkland Hospital.
Mr. RUBY. No; I didn't go there. They tried to ask me. My sisters asked me. Some people told my sister that you were there. I am of sound mind. I never went there. Everything that transpired during the tragedy, I was at the Morning News Building.
Congressman FORD. You didn't go out there subsequent to the assassination?
Mr. RUBY. No; in other words, like somebody is trying to make me something of a martyr in that case. No; I never did. Does this conflict with my story and yours in great length?
Mr. MOORE. Substantially the same, Jack, as well as I remember.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about people of your religion have guts, or something like that?
Mr. RUBY. I said it. I never said it up there. I said, I could have said, "Weren't you afraid of getting your head blown off?" I said, "Well, to be truthful, I have a little nerve." I could have said that.
Now I could have said to the doctor that was sent to me, Bromberg, because there is a certain familiarity you have, because it is like you have an attorney representing you, it is there. I mean, it is there.
But I did say this. McWillie made a statement about me, something to the effect that "he is considered a pretty rough guy," this McWillie. He said, "One thing about Jack Ruby, he runs this club and no one runs over him."
And you have a different type of entertainment here than any other part of the country, our type of entertainment.
But I don't recall that. I could have said the sentimental feeling that I may have used.
Representative FORD. When you flew to Cuba, where did you go from Dallas en route? What was the step-by-step process by which you arrived at Havana?
Mr. RUBY. I think I told Mr. Moore I stopped in New Orleans. Sometime I stopped in New Orleans, and I don't remember if I stopped in Florida or New Orleans, but I know I did stop in New Orleans, because I bought some Carioca rum coming back.
I know I was to Miami on a stopover. It could have been on the way back. I only went to Cuba once, so n...

[Drew Phipps]

Earl Warren did a lot of good for our country and our ideals as Chief Justice before he was dragooned into heading the Warren Coverup. I wish we knew more about his motives or circumstances. He must know that he has to be careful about how he talks to Ruby, because Ruby is a defendant in a criminal case, at the time of this interview. Anything other than total circumspection might blow the State's case against Ruby, making the Commission's work even less convincing. The proverbial "buck" stops at Earl Warren's desk, to be sure, but that doesn't mean he authored the various fabrications present in the Warren Commission's work.

Ruby says here there's no conspiracy (to kill Oswald, I'm guessing). He said that at trial. It was in his interest to deny any conspiracy or premeditation. He might have been fearful that the next "prisoner transfer" was going to be his, but it didn't happen. He lived a long time after his trial.

[Tracy Riddle]

I think it was in Anthony Summers' book Official and Confidential that he revealed Warren had used J. Edgar Hoover to investigate his daughter's boyfriends. Hoover probably had other dirt on Warren which made him easy to compromise.

[Peter Lemkin]

Earl Warren did a lot of good for our country and our ideals as Chief Justice before he was dragooned into heading the Warren Coverup. I wish we knew more about his motives or circumstances. He must know that he has to be careful about how he talks to Ruby, because Ruby is a defendant in a criminal case, at the time of this interview. Anything other than total circumspection might blow the State's case against Ruby, making the Commission's work even less convincing. The proverbial "buck" stops at Earl Warren's desk, to be sure, but that doesn't mean he authored the various fabrications present in the Warren Commission's work.

Ruby says here there's no conspiracy (to kill Oswald, I'm guessing). He said that at trial. It was in his interest to deny any conspiracy or premeditation. He might have been fearful that the next "prisoner transfer" was going to be his, but it didn't happen. He lived a long time after his trial.

Ruby said one LINE when surrounded by DPD who he was sure would shoot him in jail [or let in others to do the deed!] if he didn't follow the script given to him! He pleaded with Warren to get him out of Dallas so he could tell the truth...you need to hear his voice in the audio of the exchange..it is a desperate plea. Finally, when Ruby got a chance at a retrial, CIA Mind Control MK/ULTRA Dr. West [who also came in contact with many other CIA-run killers] came to visit Ruby in jail....and gave him an injection not asked for nor needed!....Ruby told anyone who'd listen he'd been injected with cancer [and he had reason to know this...too long to get into why just here]. Ruby died not long after of a very rapid-progression cancer, before any retrial could occur outside of Dallas. None of the above is coincidence - but the silencing of another witness who knew the truth....of which there were, by my count, about 200 silenced in various manners - perhaps more.

Surely NOT the primary nor even secondary motive for involving Warren, but destroying his good reputation [which sank after the WC and never recovered] may have been a side plan and 'benefit' of the fascist cabal behind the Assassination and cover-up. I don't think Warren's comments to Ruby were lawyerly caution - but a bold-faced attempt to NOT hear the truth from the then most important living witness and participant in custody!

[Albert Doyle]

I think what Ruby is doing with Warren is repeating the cover story a little too much in order to send the message that he wasn't sure how long he could keep that cover story up if his life was threatened in Dallas.


A relative of mine was young back then and he told me Warren was a yes man who was perfect for the job and would go along.