John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee

[Tracy Riddle]

Jim, I've never seen that photo before, thanks. I'm guessing that young girl is one of his cousins on the Murrett side (Marilyn?) or an aunt. I've never seen photos of any of them before.

Karl, the photo Jenner is referring to is one I've never seen - a picture of Oswald standing in a lineup? And Pizzo still seems to see a widow's peak in that picture ("not the bushy type that I see in the picture.")

[Tracy Riddle]

Wow, I just found this site with a lot of photos I've never seen. The one that Jim posted is identified as Marilyn and Lillian Murret. Which makes sense, because Oswald looks more like he's posing with a rarely-seen relative than his mother.

http://oswald-photos.blogspot.com/

[Magda Hassan]

Isn't one of his female cousins on that side employed by the CIA?

[Tracy Riddle]

Isn't one of his female cousins on that side employed by the CIA?

Marilyn is the one with the spooky connections.

Having looked at all the photos of Marguerite on that blog, I'd say that all pictures we have of her are the same person. By the late 50s, she put on a lot of weight, started wearing those glasses, and looked a lot more miserable. There may be a fake Marguerite, but we don't have any photos of her.

[Albert Doyle]

Karl, this one is pretty obvious. You can pretty much interpolate the two Oswalds at the theater backwards. This doubles program and CIA's hypno program were pretty much the cutting edge of black ops at the time so you would have to assume they would use them for one of their most important operations - that is, regime change in America. I think the Oswald in the theater may have been hypno programmed to pull his gun and get shot. That would have tied up everything nicely but backfired and required Ruby at the police station and a desperate reaching in to DPD to arrange the basement job.

[Jim Hargrove]

Wow, I just found this site with a lot of photos I've never seen. The one that Jim posted is identified as Marilyn and Lillian Murret. Which makes sense, because Oswald looks more like he's posing with a rarely-seen relative than his mother.

http://oswald-photos.blogspot.com/

Thanks for the link, Tracy, but regardless of what the captions say, I don't think the same woman is depicted everywhere. Here is a picture of the real Marguerite standing with Edwin Ekdahl, who she married in 1945. It was furnished to the Warren Commission by Lillian Murret.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5112[/ATTACH]
John Pic told the WC, "I think he was over 6 feet. He had white hair, wore glasses, a very nice man." The woman who appeared before the WC was considerably shorter.

--Jim

[Jan Klimkowski]

Karl, this one is pretty obvious. You can pretty much interpolate the two Oswalds at the theater backwards. This doubles program and CIA's hypno program were pretty much the cutting edge of black ops at the time so you would have to assume they would use them for one of their most important operations - that is, regime change in America. I think the Oswald in the theater may have been hypno programmed to pull his gun and get shot. That would have tied up everything nicely but backfired and required Ruby at the police station and a desperate reaching in to DPD to arrange the basement job.

Albert - that's simplistic nonsense. This one really isn't "pretty obvious".

Also, "regime change" is a C21st concept that does not help deep political understanding of the assassination of JFK.

Like Charles, I agree that "doubling" is a standard mode of espionage behavior, but nothing else is straightforward.

Firstly, the Lee and Harvey hypothesis, which is fascinating and most certainly worth considering, involves a very unusual and extreme form of doubling.

Crucially, it involves the creation of two Lee Harvey Oswalds in childhood, before LHO was assigned to any mission.

This is so important that I'm going to shout it.

This hypothesis involves the creation of two Lee Harvey Oswalds in childhood, before LHO was assigned to any mission.

Secondly, you casually assume that Oswald is a subject in MK-ULTRA type programming. This is a huge assumption.

One of my tentative working hypotheses, subject as always to testing by the community and to the emergence of new evidence, is that LHO may have been subjected to MK-ULTRA experimentation. However, that leads me to radically different conclusions from those in Albert Doyle's post.

I have interviewed several individuals who claim to have been used in MK-ULTRA style programme as children. To the best of my judgement, a couple of those individuals are entirely credible and have a degree of corroborating knowledge. Note that I say knowledge, not evidence. There are very few physical facts, but plenty of circumstantial and methodological evidence.

So, let's assume that two children, let's call them Lee and Harvey, were enrolled in an MK-ULTRA style programme as children. I posted the material about the MK-ULTRA sub-projects into Hungarian refugees in NYC earlier in this thread. My working hypothesis, based on my interviews and those of other researchers who've worked in this area, is that these children would have been subjected to hypno-narco-trauma programming to create dissociative states which could then be manipulated by the MK-ULTRA programmers.

I'll say that again because it's crucially important.

My working hypothesis, based on my interviews and those of other researchers who've worked in this area, is that these children would have been subjected to hypno-narco-trauma programming to create dissociative states which could then be manipulated by the MK-ULTRA programmers.

As a young adult, "Oswald" is posted as a marine to Atsugi. It is relevant that Atsugi was home to the largest operational MK-ULTRA base outside the mainland US. "Oswald" appears to be involved in several manufactured incidents - eg fights in the spookily named Bluebird cafe - and is rapidly transformed into a fluent Russian speaker.

So, let's assume that the spooky programmers running MK-ULTRA regard Lee and Harvey as "star subjects". What mission are they going to send them on?

Lee Harvey Oswald defects to the USSR.

The Soviets are very suspicious. They stick LHO in a hospital in Minsk, giving them plenty of time to have a look inside his mind. LHO is then found an NKVD bride and gets despatched back to the USA.

Back in America, Oswald gets waved straight through customs, and later enquiries about the intelligence file of this miltary defector are denied and then subject to extreme obfuscation and redaction. The ease with which LHO and his NKVD bride are allowed back into the US is absolute proof that he was a deep cover agent of at least one highly influential agency.

Oswald then gets at least two national security state handlers in Banister and De Mohrenschildt. Amazingly, the "commie traitor" Oswald, the supposed Marine defector to the USSR, is welcomed into the bosom of the extreme anti-communist White Russian community. The "miltary traitor" Oswald also works out of Camp Street as an agent provocateur, handing out pro-Castro leaflets whilst moving in anti-Castro circles.

There is no explicit need for MK-ULTRA programming here. However, this phase of the life of Lee and Harvey, and such games as the Mexico City incident, establish that LHO was acting under orders from controllers / handlers throughout.

So, onto the assassination of JFK.

Assuming again that Lee and Harvey were MK-ULTRA subjects in childhood, why did LHO suddenly become involved in the assassination of JFK?

There's a longer version of one of my working hypotheses below.

In short, it is my considered contention that MK-ULTRA did NOT produce Manchurian Assassins, and that the actual assassination of a Very Important Person would never have been entrusted to a Manchurian Candidate.

Instead, it is my contention that MK-ULTRA produced Manchurian Patsies. Hypno-narco-trauma conditioning enabled programmers to put a subject into a dissociative state and to task the subject to go to location X and behave in manner Y. Sirhan Sirhan is a perfect example of the form: Manchurian Patsy.

If, and it's a very speculative If, the LHO of the Texas Book Store was a Manchurian Patsy, then the Facilitators who used Oswald in the plot did so for at least two purposes:

1) to provide a Patsy and thus throw the hounds off the scent;

2) to provide a Patsy with a background so dangerous to the national security establshment that Oswald's intelligence background and use as a test subject in extreme human experimentation that was at that time still totally secret, HAD TO BE COVERED UP.

In other words, the selection of Oswald and his subsequent murder CLOSED DOWN THE INVESTIGATION and ENSURED THE COMPLICITY OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY ESTABLISHMENT IN THE MARBLED LIES OF THE WARREN COMMISSION.

Note that for this hypothesis, the MK-ULTRA element is additional rather than essential.

Most of this hypothesis and its conclusions still stand purely on the known evidence that Oswald was run and handled at a very deep and covert level by certain intelligence elements, as is proven by the ease and manner of his return from the USSR and subsequent behaviour.

Given the highly compartmentalised nature of both agent handing and the various MK-ULTRA style programmes, I would consider that only a very small group of individuals at both the Sponsor and Faciliatator level could have made the selecton of Lee / Harvey as the Patsy.

From the Harvey and Lee vs. Richard Case Nagell thread, here's a slighly longer version of this speculative hypothesis:

Any and all information coming from East of Warsaw is suspect.
THEY taught US about the manchurian candidate/patsy... peeking into Oswald's brain should have revealed "Wiring MADE in the USSR"

David - please expand.

Are you suggesting Manchurian origin with a fine White Russian gloss?

Precisely... the USSR had been working with these tactics and techniques for years... which resulted in the development of fighting "fire with fire" techniques by the CIA

David - I respectfully disagree, based on more than two decades of researching the "mind control" programmes and personally interviewing dozens of the victims.

In the MK-ULTRA Iceberg thread, I wrote:

In his documentary, "You Have Used Me as a Fish Long Enough", gifted film-maker Adam Curtis argues that mind control programmes such as MK-ULTRA ultimately proved unsuccessful.

As a result, Curtis' film argues, the military-industrial complex abandoned its dream of directly controlling the individual mind. Instead, it turned to ever more sophisticated forms of mass propaganda - such as the manipulation of the historical record and the shaping of contemporary reality as presented through network television news & current affairs.

Curtis' argument probably represents the consensus amongst those few academic historians who are interested in MK-ULTRA and its legacy. I believe that consensus to be wrong.

Many years of researching Bluebird/Artichoke/MK-ULTRA and its even more hidden British counterpart, and speaking and corresponding with individuals who claim to have been guinea pigs in these programmes, have convinced me that the covert mind control techniques had three main origins:

i) the medical and psychological research on soldiers with "shellshock" dating back to the Crimean and American Civil War, and continuing through WW1 & WW2. Many soldiers whose psyches had been fragmented by the experience of terrible events, and were suffering from what we now term Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, effectively became experimental subjects. Whilst many of the shellshock doctors had the best of intentions, others were directly involved in the mind control programmes. For instance, perhaps the most famous of all the British shellshock doctors, William Sargant, collaborated extensively with Ewen Cameron and Sidney Gottlieb of MK-ULTRA notoriety. Sargant even betrayed CIA doctor Frank Olson to Gottlieb when Olson described his horror at witnessing terminal mind control experiments in 1953, probably either in Britain or in former IG Farben buildings in Frankfurt which were by then occupied by the CIA. Olson's son, Eric, has good evidence that his father was subsequently murdered by CIA elements;

ii) the very mechanical theories of the brain which were academically fashionable at the time of WW2, particularly Operant Conditioning, Classical Conditioning, and Behaviourism, and their gurus - IP Pavlov and BF Skinner. These very crude psychological frameworks suggested to the mind control doctors that the human brain could be programmed. These theories drove much of the research well into the 1970s when Drs Ervin and Mark, proteges of Robert G Heath (of brain electrode fame) and Louis Jolyon West (of MK-ULTRA notoriety) attempted to convert a disused missile base into a location for eradicating violent tendencies in primarily black prisoners using methods which can perhaps be best described as lobotomization of the limbic system. Ervin and Mark even suggested Lee Harvey Oswald's brain would have been ideal for their destructive techniques;

iii) the shamanic and occult techniques for creating trance and dissociated states, and for guiding or controlling the behaviour of an individual placed in such a state.

It is this third occult/shamanic element that Peter Levenda's concept of the "Manson Secret" captures (articulated in his brilliant Sinister Forces trilogy), and which Marks' concept of the "Manchurian Candidate" does not. The triggering of the dissociated state often involves the same techniques: eg hypnosis, narcotics, sensory deprivation, pain (whether self-inflicted, eg being made to stand with arms outstretched and fingers inches above a live electric wire, or inflicted by another person), trauma, fear. However, the "Manson Secret" concept makes explicit the fact that the people who best knew how to programme and control dissociated states were those with an occult or shamanic background.

These mind control programmes, which began with experiments on POWs, prisoners, enemy nationals and orphans, appear - over time - to have been increasingly contracted out. Sometimes this contracting out went to black military operations. I have testimony from several individuals of the increasingly sophisticated use of hypno-narcotic programming, and sensory deprivation/trauma experiments, occuring during the Vietnam War's Phoenix Program. Both on the individual level - programming of friendly operatives prior to a sensitive operation. And on the mass level - acts of horror designed psychologically to terrorize and traumatize the enemy. Douglas Valentine, the historian of the Phoenix Program, has described horrific events which take on an entirely different cast if viewed through the lens of MK-ULTRA.

It is my contention that the knowledge to control human behaviour existed originally in the occult and shamanic traditions. All C20th "mind control" programmes have been shown to have studied shamanism. However, it is the occult tradition that first codified these techniques in secret, written, rituals.

The notion that the American mind control programmes were born in response to those nasty commies brainwashing our boys and girls is a propaganda lie, peddled by the likes of CIA "writer" Edward Hunter. The American mind control programmes existed long before the Korean War.

The occult tradition is essentially supra-national. Thulse Gessellschaft, the Golden Dawn, the Ordo Templis Orientis, the Rosicrucians, Theosophy, the high levels of Freemasonry etc respect no national boundaries. Nor do the likes of Mathers, Blavatsky, Steiner, Gurdjieff, Crowley.

By the 1930s, British and American intelligence were using dissociative techniques to plant messages deep in the subconsicous of couriers, and then direct them to travel to location x. The secret message was locked behind a hypnotic trigger, and could only be retrieved by a person who knew that precise trigger. For instance, Prof Estabrooks of Colgate University, New York State, wrote of using these techniques in WW2.

As for Manchuria itself, I had long debates with John Bevilaqua, @DPF, about what may or may not have happened in Manchuria and the role of parts of the White Russian community in potentially receiving and using these "Manchurian secrets".

Atsugi had an active MK-ULTRA cell. We know from the history of the mind control programmes that whilst extreme experimentation was undertaken on captive or voiceless communities , eg soldiers, orphans, the most extreme experimentation usually took place in foreign lands.

The Bluebird cafe incident is strongly suggestive of a field test of operational programming on Oswald.

So, if Oswald was a victim of the mind control programmers, I suspect this was before his sojourn to the USSR.

Jim Root has argued that Oswald was enrolled in a deeply compartmentalised "false defector" programme. This is certainly worth considering.

Once in the USSR, it is again entirely possible that Oswald's hospital stay involved the KGB "mind control" experts testing Oswald extensively. We know they were suspicious of him from the start.

If Oswald had been programmed in the narco-hypno-trauma MK-ULTRA model, then the Soviets would have attempted to trigger dissociative states in him.

So what would have happened?

We're now in the territory explored by the likes of researcher Walter Bowart, academic Alan Scheflin and lawyer Valerie Wolf.

Whatever.

Sirhan Sirhan was clearly programmed in the narco-hypno-trauma model.

As a Manchurian Patsy. Not as a Manchurian Assassin.

The real assassins were elsewhere. The Manchurian simply had to be in the right place at the right time, to provide a guilty body for the police to arrest whilst the killers escaped.

This is what the mind control programmes delivered.

Not Manchurian Candidates. Rather Manchurian Patsies.

The distinction is critical.

[Charles Drago]

This hypothesis involves the creation of two Lee Harvey Oswalds in childhood, before LHO was assigned to any mission.

Based upon decades of reading, research, thinking, theorizing, and writing related directly and indirectly to deep politics, I haven't the slightest hesitation in endorsing the above.

In short, it is my considered contention that MK-ULTRA did NOT produce Manchurian Assassins, and that the actual assassination of a Very Important Person would never have been entrusted to a Manchurian Candidate.

AND

Instead, it is my contention that MK-ULTRA produced Manchurian Patsies. Hypno-narco-trauma conditioning enabled programmers to put a subject into a dissociative state and to task the subject to go to location X and behave in manner Y. Sirhan Sirhan is a perfect example of the form: Manchurian Patsy.

Not Manchurian Candidates. Rather Manchurian Patsies.

The distinction is critical.

No more need be said.

At least in theory ...

[Jan Klimkowski]

This hypothesis involves the creation of two Lee Harvey Oswalds in childhood, before LHO was assigned to any mission.

Based upon decades of reading, research, thinking, theorizing, and writing related directly and indirectly to deep politics, I haven't the slightest hesitation in endorsing the above.

In short, it is my considered contention that MK-ULTRA did NOT produce Manchurian Assassins, and that the actual assassination of a Very Important Person would never have been entrusted to a Manchurian Candidate.

AND

Instead, it is my contention that MK-ULTRA produced Manchurian Patsies. Hypno-narco-trauma conditioning enabled programmers to put a subject into a dissociative state and to task the subject to go to location X and behave in manner Y. Sirhan Sirhan is a perfect example of the form: Manchurian Patsy.

Not Manchurian Candidates. Rather Manchurian Patsies.

The distinction is critical.

No more need be said.

At least in theory ...

Charles - indeed. Nothing more need be said.

Sadly, that won't stop the half-baked nonsense flowing......

[Tracy Riddle]

Jim, I think that woman is the same Marguerite as in the other photos. She appears to be wearing high heels (based on the way her ankles look), and people can lose an inch or two in height as they head into old age.