John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee

[Charles Drago]

no need for a long term Oswald, which is Armstrongs scenario---

@David I am convinced that Oswald, like his relative Marilyn Murret, was recruited back in the fifties as IC-asset. But there was no Harvey. IMO the real doppelganger-play started with the creation of Oswalds CIA 201 file, in December of 1960...it would have made no sense to start such a play prior.

KK

Karl,

In order to gain a fuller sense of what I've termed the doppelganger gambit in intel operations, one must look beyond the JFK assassination and include in one's study the roles of doppelgangers not just in history (political and otherwise), but in art as well. Also it is important to note that doppelgangers are not always human: two -- or more rifles, autopsies, brain exams, brains, coffins, Z-films, confessed assassins, not to mention two official USG investigations reaching two diametrically opposed conclusions.

[David Josephs]

I am fine with a little bunch of short term Oswald doppelgangers. Acc. to JVB Oswald knew that that thing was going on. He told her it was - in part - to provide him a untainted vita, to get back to normal life. He did't know that the doppelganger play was initiated, to frame him and put him to dead.

He had friends in NOLA looking like him: remember Kerry Thornley?

no need for a long term Oswald, which is Armstrongs scenario---


@Tracy: I will think about the Pfister issue...

@David I am convinced that Oswald, like his relative Marilyn Murret, was recruited back in the fifties as IC-asset. But there was no Harvey. IMO the real doppelganger-play started with the creation of Oswalds CIA 201 file, in December of 1960...it would have made no sense to start such a play prior.



KK

KK -

I appreciate your opinion... but so far it is only that, an opinion backed with very little.

At the same time one Oswald was in Japan, another was in Korea... so much so that the DoD had to explain the problem away by saying their Unit Diaries which tracked the location of each Marine, were not only wrong about Oswald leaving Japan on a ship... but after the DoD claims he DIDN'T GO AT ALL, he is listed once again on the return ship back to Japan. There are also witnesses to Oswald's guard duty fiasco while there.

All the while the other Oswald is treated for an STD he received in the line of work.... a line of work which included subsidized visits to a known Japanese spy opoeration, the Queen Bee, where he and others like Nagell met and consorted with Japanese prostitutes....

There are distinct differences in the evidence between those that interacted with one Oswald and those that did with the other. Not to mention the FBI's massaging of the evidence to remove as much physical evidence from the planet as possible related to Operation Oswald.

Whether a composite of many Oswald's, or actually a Lee versus a Harvey... isn't the real point that there is a definite distinction between these two entities... and something very specific to these roles exploited during the Cold War attacks of one Mr. Angleton.... which ultimately allowed for a number of people to testify truthfully about an Oswald interacting in their lives - while contradicting each other at the same time.

[Jim Hargrove]

Are you that well versed in the strategies and planning of the CIA - specifically Angleton, Harvey and Helms - to know how such programs and long term plans work?

Hi, David,

I would definitely add Phillips and Hunt (E.H.) to that short list.

--Jim

[Tracy Riddle]

I am fine with a little bunch of short term Oswald doppelgangers. Acc. to JVB Oswald knew that that thing was going on. He told her it was - in part - to provide him a untainted vita, to get back to normal life. He did't know that the doppelganger play was initiated, to frame him and put him to dead.

He had friends in NOLA looking like him: remember Kerry Thornley?

no need for a long term Oswald, which is Armstrongs scenario---


@Tracy: I will think about the Pfister issue...

@David I am convinced that Oswald, like his relative Marilyn Murret, was recruited back in the fifties as IC-asset. But there was no Harvey. IMO the real doppelganger-play started with the creation of Oswalds CIA 201 file, in December of 1960...it would have made no sense to start such a play prior.


KK

During the early-to-mid 50s, we have people in New Orleans/Ft Worth who remember a "Yankee" Oswald who rode in the back of the bus with blacks. An "Oswald" in New York was remembered as talking with a Southern accent and not liking the integrated schools. Does the man arrested in Dallas have a noticeable Southern accent to you? Some witnesses recall a boy who was small, withdrawn and quiet, while others remembered a larger, more extroverted boy who liked to fight.

[David Josephs]

Are you that well versed in the strategies and planning of the CIA - specifically Angleton, Harvey and Helms - to know how such programs and long term plans work?

Hi, David,

I would definitely add Phillips and Hunt (E.H.) to that short list.

--Jim

To be honest with you Jim, I don't feel these two were even in the same league as the three I named. They were mechanics left to devise ways to implement the facilitator's plans... who in turn are acting under the expressed desires of the Sponsors, who, imo, comprised the top eschelon of the Military Industrial (Congressional) Complex...

Military
Industrial
Congressional
Complex

Filling in the WHO for the "M", "I" & "C" is right in this forum's wheelhouse.... whose orders did the following people follow?

• Vice Admiral Edward (metal casket, surgery to the head participant) Kenney, MC, USN: surgeon general of the U.S. Navy
  
• Rear Admiral George (Don't do THAT) Burkley, M.D., MC, USN: the president's personal physician
  
• Rear Admiral Calvin B. (don't dissect the neck/back) Galloway, USN: commanding officer of the U.S. Naval Medical Center, Bethesda
  

4 star general Curtis LeMay maybe,.... Anderson? Bundy? a coerced RFK?

Who had enough juice to get these three Admirals to play along.... or where they just doing their patriotic duty in the name of the eventually ratified 25th Amendment?

Section 4, 25th Amendment:
Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

[Jim Hackett II]

David Lamar McDonald (September 12, 1906 December 16, 1997) was an Admiral of the United States Navy, who served as the 17th Chief of Naval Operations (CNO), 1 August 1963 1 August 1967

However I DO NOT EXCLUDE HIS TWO IMMEDIATE PREDECESSORS AS CNO from cutting "orders" even if officially "retired" like Lansdale.
Those two are.
George W. Anderson Jr. and
Arleigh A. Burke

Can't leave out the ONI, though.
rotten spooks will be spooks.

[Jim Hargrove]

Are you that well versed in the strategies and planning of the CIA - specifically Angleton, Harvey and Helms - to know how such programs and long term plans work?

Hi, David,

I would definitely add Phillips and Hunt (E.H.) to that short list.

--Jim

To be honest with you Jim, I don't feel these two were even in the same league as the three I named. They were mechanics left to devise ways to implement the facilitator's plans... who in turn are acting under the expressed desires of the Sponsors, who, imo, comprised the top eschelon of the Military Industrial (Congressional) Complex...

Military
Industrial
Congressional
Complex

Filling in the WHO for the "M", "I" & "C" is right in this forum's wheelhouse.... whose orders did the following people follow?

• Vice Admiral Edward (metal casket, surgery to the head participant) Kenney, MC, USN: surgeon general of the U.S. Navy
  
• Rear Admiral George (Don't do THAT) Burkley, M.D., MC, USN: the president's personal physician
  
• Rear Admiral Calvin B. (don't dissect the neck/back) Galloway, USN: commanding officer of the U.S. Naval Medical Center, Bethesda
  

4 star general Curtis LeMay maybe,.... Anderson? Bundy? a coerced RFK?

Who had enough juice to get these three Admirals to play along.... or where they just doing their patriotic duty in the name of the eventually ratified 25th Amendment?

Section 4, 25th Amendment:
Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Well, clearly you're right that Phillips and Hunt were lower on the MIC totem pole than the others you mentioned, but I just can't bring myself to leave them out. Hunt, after all, seems to have been involved in taking down not just one but two American presidents. It's hard to think that was just good luck, and if nothing else he deserves a place in the bastard mechanic's Hall of Fame.

And if Fonzi is right and Phillips became Mexico City's Chief of Cuban Operations right before Oswald's so-called "visit"... well, that's just so special isn't it?... perhaps he ran tours for LEE Oswald everywhere but in certain embassies... and that's not even going into the Bishop business. If I had to, I'd bet my life that those two guys were guilty of a capital crime, the others you name... probably, but I personally couldn't be sure.

Jim

[Jim Hargrove]

E. Howard Hunt told Cigar Aficionado that he was temporary Chief of Station in Mexico City during Oswald's "visit" in September 1963, while David Atlee Phillips was in charge of Cuban Operations there. Immediately after that, the double sightings in Dallas began in earnest as the patsy was being set up for the Kennedy hit. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the largely failed spy plot Harvey and Lee had been involved in was shifted right then and there by Hunt and Phillips to the assassination of the president. No real proof, of course, but the timing is stunning.

--Jim

[David Josephs]

David Lamar McDonald (September 12, 1906 December 16, 1997) was an Admiral of the United States Navy, who served as the 17th Chief of Naval Operations (CNO), 1 August 1963 1 August 1967

However I DO NOT EXCLUDE HIS TWO IMMEDIATE PREDECESSORS AS CNO from cutting "orders" even if officially "retired" like Lansdale.
Those two are.
George W. Anderson Jr. and
Arleigh A. Burke

Can't leave out the ONI, though.
rotten spooks will be spooks.

Agreed Jim

Thanks for coming along on this ride of mine Jim... (let's also not forget the invisible Dr Bateman...listed as attending yet never to be heard from or seen again)
DJ

I know this is still the H&L thread... yet we should not get so carried away with the CIA (imo a possible scapegoat) when the ONI and DIA were just as influential in their Cold War efforts and possibly even more culpable for the conspiracy.
-----

Some quick background:

For those following along... the MARINES are part the Dept of the NAVY so Oswald would have been under the direction of the ONI.

Directors of ONIRear Adm. Laurence H. Frost (June 1956 September 1960)
Rear Adm. Vernon L. Lowrance (September 1960 June 1963)
Rear Adm. Rufus L. Taylor (June 1963 May 1966)


Laurence Hugh Frost (July 22, 1902 May 23, 1977) was a U.S. admiral who served as Director of Naval Intelligence and Director of the National Security Agency
Adm Vernon L. "Rebel" Lowrance
Several years later Lowrance was appointed as Commander Cruiser Division Three and Commander Training Command, U.S. Pacific Fleet. He next served as the Director of Naval Intelligence from September of 1960 to June of 1963 which included the Cuban Missile Crisis. On September 1, 1964 he became the Commander, Submarine Forces, U.S. Atlantic Fleet and continued in that command until 1966. After leaving this command he reported to Washington, D.C. where he served as Deputy Director of the Defense intelligence Agency

Rufus Lackland Taylor (1910-1978) was a Vice Admiral in the United States Navy and Deputy Director of the CIA.



Anderson's rift with McNamara/JFK over the Missle Blockade http://jfk14thday.com/tape-mcnamara-anderson/

And even Taylor was not real keen on JFK....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell_D._Taylor
Taylor received fierce criticism in Maj. (now MG) H.R. McMaster's book Dereliction of Duty. Specifically, Gen. Taylor was accused of intentionally misrepresenting the views of the Joint Chiefs to Secretary of Defense McNamara, and cutting the Joint Chiefs out of the decision-making process.[SUP][5][/SUP]

Whereas the Chiefs felt that it was their duty to offer unbiased assessments and recommendations on military matters, Gen. Taylor was of the firm belief that the chairman should not only support the president's decisions but also be a true believer in them. This discrepancy manifested itself during the early planning phases of the war, while it was still being decided what the nature of American involvement should be. McNamara and the civilians of the office of the secretary of defense were firmly behind the idea of graduated pressurethat is, to escalate pressure slowly against North Vietnam in order to demonstrate U.S. resolve. The Joint Chiefs, however, strenuously disagreed with this and believed that if the US got involved further in Vietnam, it should be with the clear intention of winning and through the use of overwhelming force. McMaster contends that using a variety of political maneuvering, including liberal use of outright deception, Gen. Taylor succeeded in keeping the Joint Chiefs' opinions away from the President and helped set the stage for McNamara to begin to dominate systematically the U.S. decision making process on Vietnam.
-----
Taylor was of crucial importance during the first weeks and months of the Vietnam War. Whereas initially President Kennedy had told Taylor that "the independence of South Vietnam rests with the people and government of that country," Taylor was soon to recommend that 8,000 American combat troops be sent to the region at once. After making his report to the Cabinet and the Chiefs of Staff, Taylor was to reflect on the decision to send troops to South Vietnam: "I don't recall anyone who was strongly against, except one man, and that was the President. The President just didn't want to be convinced that this was the right thing to do.... It was really the President's personal conviction that U.S. ground troops shouldn't go in." [SUP][4]



[/SUP]

[David Josephs]

A couple more names that has been discussed here...

Fred Korth, Sec of the Navy 1962-63 http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKkorth.htm

and

Paul Nitze, Secretary of the Navy starting Nov 28th, 1963.

http://old.library.jhu.edu/collections/s...7-002.html

The Foreign Service Educational Foundation was founded in 1943 to
inaugurate and administer a graduate school for international diplomacy and
economics, to be located in Washington, DC. This institution was named the
School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS).


http://www.nytimes.com/1986/06/08/magazi...e-cia.html

KEVIN WARD was sitting in a snack bar at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies in Bologna, Italy, when he was approached by a stranger. Ward, then 20 years old, was nearing the end of his junior year abroad. ''I was having a pastry and a cappuccino,'' he recalled, ''when this guy came in. He was in his early 30's, dark hair, neatly dressed, you know, the man in a suit. He said, 'You're Kevin Ward; do you mind if I speak to you?'

He handed me some literature and said, 'Have you ever thought of a career in the C.I.A.?' ''