you hit on a very vital point IMO. I look forwardto what Bruce offers...
Like the phony xrays, coming to conclusions regarding a real life situation from fakes evidence is a fool's errand
other than the realization that the evidence is forged...
The NYC school records were created to reflect a certain situation: Ridglea (only LEE went there) Trinity Evangelical (a mystery), PS117 and PS44 one of three in NYC).. The record does not account for Jan/Feb and most of March 1953 stating the Oswald child was absent a huge % of the time and he was transferred on 1/16/53. The only speculation I can think of for the grade cards in the FALL for those two classes is that the would be the very end of the FALL semester yet before Jan 13, 1954... which really doesn't work.
So there must have been a Lee Oswald at the end of the FALL semester at BJHS AND PS44 in NYC at the same time... and at BJHS in the SPRING at the same time
IF THE RECORDS ARE TO BE USED.... (I think that HARVEY's BJHS card was simply made into LEE's with HARVEY disappearing from NOLA in June '54.)
and I KNOW one or more of these cards was recreated... the one on the right is the CE...
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The size difference in the boys called OSWALD is staggering.... and the reason after 9th grade the school records gets even worse..
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James,with regards to Stripling... that HOOVER sends men there on 11/23 is the real coup here... HOW does he know and WHY is it so vital?
It appears from the record that MO's place on Thomas across from Stripling was a constantly available location for her "stuff".
On 11/23/63 her address is 2220 Thomas, across from Stripling.
---------
Bruce - I have to concede that Myra's dates and the actual dates are at odds... "HER" homeroom versus "HARVEY's" maybe? and even so, she still talks of AFTER X-mas.
the ONLY evidence of OSWALD at BJHS in the FALL 1953 are those two term grades on the grade cards, that one line with the first "53-54" and the memory of Ed Voebel.
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
Excellent points! We are really dealing with multiple layers of conflicting evidence about Oswald. As you suggest, it is like studying the autopsy X-rays and trying to link them to what the eyewitnesses observed at Bethesda. In attempting to understand Oswald, the work is closer to archaeology in digging through the following:
(1) the phony evidence from 1938-1959 when the identities of the two boys were merged to create a legend for the Oswald Project in the CIA's false defector program;
(2) the phony evidence from the summer of 1963 through November 22, with a string of Oswald impersonations from Mexico City to Dallas; and
(3) the period of November 22, 1963 until the publication of the Warren Report, during which the FBI and the Warren Commission shuffled the Oswald deck of evidence once again.
This is such a "cluster f____" of evidence that is small wonder that there is little agreement on the key issues even in the research community.
You're right about the significance of agents of the government visiting Assistant Principal Frank Kudlaty on November 23, 1963. The act of collecting the Stripling school records suggests that Orwell's "Big Brother" was at work to create a sanitized version of the life of Lee Harvey Oswald. It came as no surprise to me that there was not a single full-scale biography of Oswald published at the time of the fiftieth anniversary.
In our discussion of Oswald in New Orleans in 1953-55, one figure who may be as important as Kudlaty is Ed Voebel. This is the only student to have known both of the Oswalds during the period of their education. And the school where Voebel knew the two boys was Beauregard Junior High.
When the reality of the "Assassination" as CONSTRUCT takes hold... I believe we are allowed a POV that begins to shed some light.
You read chillingly as WILLIAM HARVEY orders a "complete 201 back file - appropriate dates - with copies in appropriate locations" to cover an operation or prepare for one.
and are at times led on with the OSWALD 201 paper trail from hell...
More of that evaluation of the mirage... only to glimpse a clearer picture of the CONSTRUCT...
What usually amazes me about analysis is that we somehow stop short of the subject organization of person's capability for evil given the reality of our conclusions...
In the true grand scope I see H&L part of an evolving game started well before JFK... where JFK is but a small expendable piece on that scale - POTUS or not.
I think the invention of H&L is brilliant and may have allowed infiltration into organizations who would have done us harm... I think the intelligence community has done a LOT of H&L..
The deepest of covers - the deepest of back stories.... this is what the 50's was about in the CIA... and what the history of many intelligence organizations is full of..
We MUST remember, imo, that Tampa and Chicago happened... Chicago was very close... would JFK go to Bethesda? Vallee be killed while escaping?... a different asset with a different back story...
But I bet if anyone had looked, there would have been VALLEE sightings in the most interesting of places... (fyi the WCD from Chicago ALL try to deny anything happened there... I looked them all up once and was amazed... James, the WCD is where the guts are... check 298 out for some amazing reading)
I have believed and will continue to believe that the CIA is part of the smokescreen... that the ONI is the true power and organization behind the "use of the HARVEY/LEE asset" in the removal of the president.... and has the most direct and long standing relationship with the MICC..
Harvey and Lee are real, were created with the express purpose of deep cover asset for anyone in the intelligence community who could use him ala Harry Dean and Nagel.
Cheers
DJ
btw - Here is a NYC map of what and where... for part of the time... summer of 52 into school... notice 2 PS44's... one by Pic and one up by MO/Lee's apartments
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Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
Thank you, James. You were quite right to take me to task on my impertinent question. I guess I simply wanted to see what kind of reaction it would get. I have no idea why the video interview of Myra Darouse Larue seems to give such contradictory information about "Harvey". To even suggest a possible personal motivation was totally out of line. All I really needed to say was that I think that any conclusion based on Mrs. Larue's interview is premature until we know exactly what she said. I appreciate civility in this discussion as much as you and David so I apologize. I sense that we are all three in the same boat, researchers inspired by John Armstrong to look at the early years of LHO and let the evidence take us where the evidence will.
The Larue interview that I saw was sponsored by Poage on Youtube so I thought it was the official video. But I will take a look at the link you provide and see if I can see any differences.
As for being a "smarty pants", I have known quite a few over the years myself and I know how annoying they can be! But I'd say I was rather the little boy who keeps asking questions because he wants to understand, not because he wants to show how smart he is. I plead ignorance on a lot of this stuff because I simply do not know. But I would like to know very much. These students can be just as annoying, but I guess I have a tender spot in my heart for them because I was and am one. And we're worth it!
Also I should add that my approach to doing this kind of research is perhaps a bit different from the norm. My early schooling was all math and science. I got a BS in Chemical Engineering and worked for a big oil company for five years. After traveling around the world a couple of times and doing a lot of reading, I fell in love with history and went back to school to get an MA in American Studies and a PhD in History. I was a college professor for a few years before getting fed up with academia and becoming a high school history teacher where I have been happily employed for the past dozen or so years. I am passionate about historical research, but my whole approach is rooted in the kind of problem solving I did as an engineer. I approach historical problems just as I approached engineering problems. I immerse myself in the evidence until I can come up with a working hypothesis. Then I continue to pit my working hypothesis against all the evidence I can muster to see if it continues to stand up, modifying or jettisoning the working hypothesis as necessary.
You are also quite right to observe that in my first two posts I have not added anything "to advance our understanding and interpretation of the evidence about Oswald in New Orleans in 1953-55". Rest assured that at this stage in game, after having immersed myself in all the evidence I could find, I have come up with a working hypothesis which goes way beyond the 1953-55 years. I even went so far as to have communicated my working hypothesis to John Armstrong. He promptly rejected my hypothesis, saying I had no evidence. When I sent him part of the evidence, he rejected the evidence, saying it was faulty. When I asked him why it was faulty and what made his evidence better, he promptly cut me off. The running theme through the entire e-mail conversation was "READ MY BOOK! IT'S ALL THERE!" I had suggested to John in passing that I would eventually like to bring my hypothesis and evidence to some public forum, which he pooh-poohed as a waste of time. But I am not willing to give up just yet!
As for what my working hypothesis is, I would like to reserve that for the present because I know there is a lot of evidence that it does not explain and I don't want to get into a premature debate about what is wrong with it until I get a better handle on the evidence. So that is why I am focusing so much here on questioning the evidence. In my contributions I do want to focus on the 1953-55 years because my gut tells me this is where we can best sort through these two Oswalds. And, yes, my working hypothesis does involve two Oswalds and two Marguerites!
So I thank you for sticking with me despite my indiscretions. I'll keep plugging away at all the interesting evidence and ideas that you and David (and anybody else out there) raise and interjecting some evidence and ideas of my own as welL. But please don't get mad at me if I have trouble keeping up with you guys in upcoming posts. I'm still a working stiff and have a bunch of US History exams to grade!
It took me the better part of 9 months to put together my side-by-side based on the book and the source documents.
and I've only made it to Jan 1962 (p.400 out of 1000 in the book) while I have reviewed MANY of the Poage docs.... I have found numerous occassions where LEE and HARVEY are active in different parts of the world, or different parts of the same city
I look forward to discussing your 2 Oswald - 2 MO theory...
Going back to this most interesting time period... 1953.
Bruce, ask yourself who is attending PS44 during the time HARVEY is at YOUTH HOUSE? From April 23 to May 8 1953..
and to step back even more... In early Nov 1953 an event occurs that is denied by Robert, told by Pic and represents a HUGE CHANGE in little Oswald's behavior...
Up to that point L/H had been living with John and his wife but were asked to leave due to problems with the MO caretaker (I am not sure whether this is the mother or caretaker... my gut tells me it MUST have been LEE and his mother until they move to 1455 Sheridan or 825 E. 179th and that on that Nov day the REAL MO and HARVEY are at the apartment when they are visited... LEE's, now HARVEY's behavior, is a 180 degree change... This MAY have been onpurpose to estrange himself from John... Since John feels this boy WAS LEE yet had changed behavior so drastically... it MAY have been HARVEY already in the process of switching over...
Mr. PIC - Just a minute, sir. That is where I began my notes. August 1952, my
mother and Lee came to New York. They brought with them quite a bit of luggage,
and their own TV set. On my way home I had to walk about 8 to 10 blocks to the
subway, and Lee walked up to meet me as I was walking home, I told my wife and
Lee decided to go up and meet me. We met in the street and I was real glad to
see him and he was real glad to see me. 'We were real good friends. I think a
matter of a few days or so I took my leave. Lee and I visited some of the
landmarks of New York, the Museum of Natural History, Polk's Hobby Shop on 5th
Avenue. I took him on the Staten Island ferry, and several other excursions we
made.
Mr. JENNER - Did your brother's wife accompany him?
Mr. PIC - He wasn't married at that time, sir.
Mr. JENNER - He wasn't married?
Mr. PIC - I think this was, his leave was probably in October or November 1952, a matter of a month or two after they had moved out. We visited their apartment in the Bronx.
Mr. JENNER - Excuse me, where did your brother stay?
Mr. PIC - I think he stayed at the Soldier-Sailor-Airmen Club in New York.
Mr. JENNER - In any event he did not stay with you.
Mr. PIC - No, sir; he may have stayed with my mother also. I don't think so. Maybe for a night or two. We went out, my wife fixed him up with a date with one of her girl friends and we went out together a couple of times. So, we were invited up there for this Sunday dinner. So it was my mother, Lee, Robert, my wife, myself, and my son.
Robert was already there when we arrived. When Lee seen me or my wife he left the room. For dinner he sat in the front room watching TV and didn't join us whatsoever
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were corresponding infrequently, I would say--not very many letters between I and Lee direct when I was in the service, especially the first part of my tour in the service.
In 1952, after traveling from Camp Pendleton, Calif., to Jacksonville, Fla. I did have a 10-day leave. They were in New York City at that time.
Mr. JENNER. This was then some time in 1953, I take it? Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--1952.
Mr. JENNER. 1952?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This was---- Mr. JENNER. You mean your mother and Lee that is the period of time they were in New York City?
Mr. OSWALD. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Living there.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see them? Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not at that time. I spent my leave in Fort Worth, because I did not feel I had enough time to travel to New York and down to Jacksonville, Fla. After completing metalsmith school at Millington, Tenn., I took a 10-day leave
Mr. PIC - .......When Lee seen me or my wife he left the room. For dinner he sat in the front room watching TV and didn't join us whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER - He did not join you for dinner?
Mr. PIC - No, sir. Didn't speak to me or my wife.
Mr. JENNER - That put a kind of pall on the visit, did it not?
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Did you--he didn't speak to you. Did you attempt to speak with him?
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER - Did he answer you? Mr. PIC - He shrugged his shoulders a couple of times maybe. He wasn't interested in anything I had to say.
Mr. JENNER - He was definitely hostile to you and to Mrs. Pic?
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.
Mr. PIC - That is right. So in February 1953, (this is in the middle of the Jan-March WHERE's LEE period when HARVEY is truant and sent to YOUTH HOUSE) my wife and I were again invited to their apartment. This may or may not have been the same apartment we originally visited. I don't remember, sir. I know it was up in the Bronx. I think it may have been a different apartment. Is that right?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mr. PIC - As my wife and I walked in, Lee walked out and my mother informed us that he would probably go to the Bronx Zoo. We had Sunday dinner, and in the course of the conversation my mother informed me that Lee was having a truancy problem and that the school officials had suggested that he might need psychiatric aid to combat his truancy problem.
She informed me that Lee said that he would not see a head shrinker or nut doctor, and she wanted any suggestions or opinions from me as to how to get him to see him, and I told her just take him down there. That is all I could suggest.
(this would be the last time he sees his half brother until 1962, Thanksgiving.)
Mr. JENNER - How did he look to you physically as compared with when you had seen him last? Mr. PIC - I would have never recognized him, sir.
Mr. JENNER - What did you notice?
Mr. PIC - He was much thinner than I had remembered him. He didn't have as much hair.
Mr. JENNER - Did that arrest your attention? Was that a material difference? Did that strike you?
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir; it struck me quite profusely.
Mr. JENNER - What else did you notice about his physical appearance that arrested your attention? Mr. PIC - His face features were somewhat different, being his eyes were set back maybe, you know like in these Army pictures, they looked different than I remembered him. His face was rounder. Marilyn had described him to me when he went in the Marine Corps as having a bull neck. This I didn't notice at all. I looked for this, I didn't notice this at all, sir.
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Here is the 52-54 school years side-by-side.... If you can assist with accuracy abnd/or more detail - it would be appreciated
DJ
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Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
David: Thanks for your posting and for your detailed chronology of the New York years. Are you suggesting that the violent behavior exhibited by Lee Oswald in New York was part of a charade, and that the boy was being directed to give the impression of a personality disorder as part of the creation of the Oswald "legend"? Would this be true for the notorious knife incident when Lee apparently threatened the wife of John Pic?
Bruce: The part of Myra DaRouse's interview that I find absolutely credible is the concern that she had for a little boy who appeared to her as an underdog. Her testimony about seeing him alone on the schoolyard well beyond the school hours was the experience that a dedicated teacher would remember. She even states that she felt the boy's home life was so dreary that he preferred to wander around the playground alone after the school day. We may not get closure on such matters as the homeroom, but what is clear to me is that Myra recreated for us a profile of a young student that is at odds with the Oswald created by the Warren Commission. In his discussion of the previous years in New York, David has presented some compelling data about two contrasting Oswald personalities being developed. Do you think that the testimony of Myra DaRouse supports that of Dr. Milton Kurion, who interviewed in NYC a little boy that is a virtual match for the young Oswald described by Myra?
James Norwood Wrote:David: Thanks for your posting and for your detailed chronology of the New York years. Are you suggesting that the violent behavior exhibited by Lee Oswald in New York was part of a charade, and that the boy was being directed to give the impression of a personality disorder as part of the creation of the Oswald "legend"? Would this be true for the notorious knife incident when Lee apparently threatened the wife of John Pic?
Bruce: The part of Myra DaRouse's interview that I find absolutely credible is the concern that she had for a little boy who appeared to her as an underdog. Her testimony about seeing him alone on the schoolyard well beyond the school hours was the experience that a dedicated teacher would remember. She even states that she felt the boy's home life was so dreary that he preferred to wander around the playground alone after the school day. We may not get closure on such matters as the homeroom, but what is clear to me is that Myra recreated for us a profile of a young student that is at odds with the Oswald created by the Warren Commission. In his discussion of the previous years in New York, David has presented some compelling data about two contrasting Oswald personalities being developed. Do you think that the testimony of Myra DaRouse supports that of Dr. Milton Kurion, who interviewed in NYC a little boy that is a virtual match for the young Oswald described by Myra?
James
The product of many hours... thanks... as I say, I have this type of chronology thru early 62... much more work to do as I also believe that LEE was in and around DALLAS the entire time.
I am suggesting one of two things... the boy that shined on Pic and family was either LEE acting out of character, or this is now HARVEY and he is avoiding the relatives and being put into action via the REAL mother.... Evidence suggests all along that puts the real MO and Robert at the center of it the charade.... and just WHO is the caretaker of HARVEY ????
It occurs to me that Pic must know his mother at this point... 10 years have not gone by so that his mother could look so different to him...
But the boy's behavior is puzzling. And then for LEE not to be there in February 1953, during the truancy days... suggests to me that LEE is now out of the picture (or being encouraged to lash out - the "knife" incident is still no completely known imo... the story of what occurred has many POVs...
If something concrete comes up for the Summer/Fall 52 and 53... I'd love to see it.
You are aware of the TIPPIT to Tippit call about HARVEY's father and uncle being NYC communists?
DJ
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
David and Magda: Yes, the call placed from Mrs. Jack Tippit (whose husband was a relative of slain officer J. D. Tippit) to the FBI comes to us from an actual FBI report. (David: I regret that I'm not a computer whiz like you; otherwise I would paste up the document right here.) On Saturday, November 23, 1963, an anonymous female caller traveled from New York to Westport, CT to phone Mrs. Tippit in order for the call not to be traced. The caller related the story about the father and uncle of the alleged suspect and still-living Lee Harvey Oswald, who were "Hungarians and Communists" who had lived in Yorkville in the Upper East Side of Manhattan.
The story takes on special significance when we come to the time in 1952, when Marguerite and Lee peremptorily move from Fort Worth to New York. The move disrupts the period of Lee's youth in which he had the greatest stability in his home life and continuity in his education. The arrival in New York of Marguerite and Lee brings into focus the research conducted by David into the appearance of two boys named Lee Harvey Oswald in New York. The combination of school records, eyewitness testimony, and photographic evidence reveals for the first time the existence of the two Oswald boys. In this period, a veil is lifted for us to at least glimpse the workings of the Oswald Project, whose objective was to place a Russian-speaking American spy in the Soviet Union at the height of the Cold War. The project was in its embryonic stage in New York City in 1952-53, and it culminated in the defection of the Marine "Harvey" Oswald in 1959.
James Norwood Wrote:David and Magda: Yes, the call placed from Mrs. Jack Tippit (whose husband was a relative of slain officer J. D. Tippit) to the FBI comes to us from an actual FBI report. (David: I regret that I'm not a computer whiz like you; otherwise I would paste up the document right here.) On Saturday, November 23, 1963, an anonymous female caller traveled from New York to Westport, CT to phone Mrs. Tippit in order for the call not to be traced. The caller related the story about the father and uncle of the alleged suspect and still-living Lee Harvey Oswald, who were "Hungarians and Communists" who had lived in Yorkville in the Upper East Side of Manhattan.
The story takes on special significance when we come to the time in 1952, when Marguerite and Lee peremptorily move from Fort Worth to New York. The move disrupts the period of Lee's youth in which he had the greatest stability in his home life and continuity in his education. The arrival in New York of Marguerite and Lee brings into focus the research conducted by David into the appearance of two boys named Lee Harvey Oswald in New York. The combination of school records, eyewitness testimony, and photographic evidence reveals for the first time the existence of the two Oswald boys. In this period, a veil is lifted for us to at least glimpse the workings of the Oswald Project, whose objective was to place a Russian-speaking American spy in the Soviet Union at the height of the Cold War. The project was in its embryonic stage in New York City in 1952-53, and it culminated in the defection of the Marine "Harvey" Oswald in 1959.
James
I wish my paper files were as organized as my electronic ones....
from JA's H&L. If you haven't already - the NYC youth house and truancy court docs are fascinating... all at Poage
To come full circle, it is more likely that just the boy was introduced into the scenario, in late October 52... with the real MO...
and before the real MO and LEE leave NYC - the MO caretaker and HARVEY go their way back to the "Ft. Worth - NOLA two-step"...
So HARVEY has a different name.. a smart boy, high IQ, is taught how to play the part.... and as we notice, HARVEY is always one step ahead or to the side of LEE..
One POV I like to take is that H&L provides the details of how these programs were carried out...
The houses/apartments MO stayed in, MOST are gone... the trails are logical but cold, should anyone care to follow them.
Quite brilliant actually...
(NOTE: when exhumed, the autopsied head of LHO did NOT have a craniotomy which Rose knows he performed, not the scars we knew LEE had accumulated.
just sayin... :hock:: )
DJ
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Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
hock:: )