The LBJ Connection

[Richard Coleman]

Just my uninformed opinion. It seems to me that such high-level organizers as Allen Dulles, Helms, Harvey, the Dallas contingent, etc. (replace "etc." with your faves) would make it a point NOT to include LBJ in it for reasons of deniability. No one can know for sure if, informed about a definite plan "in the working", LBJ might have recoiled from this ultimate act of treason and revealed it to the Kennedys. I know about how much he hated them, and about his legal troubles, but even so....an assassination plot would put everyone in the same class as Benedict Arnold and J.W. Booth if...IF... it was uncovered. Could LBJ be absolutely sure that even with his friend Hoover helping out that such a horrendous thing could be covered up....FOREVER?

No. And why put him in such a position? I believe that in the weeks leading up to 11/22, he was probably approached in a social context such as a Georgetown party by a highly placed individual in the military or intelligence and casually drawn into a conversation over drinks about whether he was ready to step up if "God forbid" something was to happen to JFK. He might sluff this off once as casual party talk, but if it happened TWICE, well, he wasn't an idiot and he would realize that something was "in the wind". With nothing concrete to go on, I can see that he would keep it to himself...no risk to him.

OTOH, if the accounts if him and his SS escort bending over a radio during the motorcade, so that no one else could hear what was going on are true, I could be wrong................. .::

[R.K. Locke]

It would have been a risk either way. If Johnson was outof the loop then how could have his complicity have been ensured after the fact? The Sponsors of this crime were not in the business of taking educated guesses and could not have afforded to leave any room for doubt as to LBJ's intentions. That is why I believe that he had to have had at least someforeknowledge.


Plus, there is this (from Larry Hancock's blog):


One of the more fascinating loose ends of November 22, 1963 is the rather mysterious flight by LBJ's aide Col. Howard Burris to Texas on the eve of the assassination. John Newman is one of the few to have written about Burris by name although a handful of us have studied him as best we could. Newman points out that it was Burris who seems to have been responsible for serving as a CIA back-channel to LBJ. Of course its well known that Johnson had a network of folks within various government agencies (including the Department of Agriculture OK, don't laugh, a Dept of Ag guy functioned as lead political advance man for the trip to Dallas).

Newman examines Burris's role in regard to the trip to Vietnam where Johnson served as President Kennedy's representative its clear that Kennedy wanted Johnson to do little more than "show the flag" but as it turned out, Johnson ended up holding a press conference in which he parroted the CIA line of dramatically increased military support effectively backing JFK into a corner on further commitments. Kennedy was quite unhappy with that and Newman tells the whole story in some detail, including his attempts to discuss it with Burris, who would say little but did remark that of course he was Johnson's adviser on international affairs (and we have a number of documents of reports he prepared for Johnson on that subject) but that he was also connected to and getting input from "the boys in the woodwork."

By itself, that would be interesting, as would Burris later reported ties to Richard Helms and his eventual, highly lucrative oil dealings and connections to Iranian royalty.

While it would be very informative to understand his real connections to the intelligence community, of even more interest is a flight that he took to Texas at the time of the Dallas visit. When asked about the trip, he stated that he was carrying down background and briefing papers for Johnson who intended to confront Kennedy on certain international issues during the JFK visit to Johnson's ranch. Given that on November 22, Johnson was totally focused on the political implications of Kennedy's visit to Texas (and not at all happy with JFK's apparent popularity), totally immersed in the Democratic warfare over seating at the Governor's reception for JFK and beyond that not all that involved with international affairs in any case well the idea that he would be going head to head with JFK on something about international policy seems to need some special explanation.

None of that of course was forthcoming from Burris. He flew down; he flew back. And he later stated that on his flight back he hitched a ride on an AF jet figher, the pilot became unconscious and he had to fly the plane back and land it quite a feat for a WWII multi-engine bomber pilot who apparently had never piloted a jet. And even more interesting in that a study of his expense reports reveal he was paid for a flight back on a commercial airliner.

So what was the real purpose for the trip to Texas to see Johnson at the very last minute during the Texas trip? Was it really to prep Johnson for a head to head with JFK on something (perhaps Vietnam with Johnson acting as a stalking horse for others) or was it to carry some other communication to Johnson?

We don't know, although the few who have studied Col. Burris, and his friend Delk Simpson, have turned up more details on probable connections to the Agency, and more interesting rumors about both men, the whole subject remains largely a mystery. And I've personally been surprised that those researches and authors who want to put LBJ in a key role in a conspiracy against JFK have not devoted a lot more time and interest to Col. Burris?

As for me, his flight to Texas and his explanation for it both continue to trouble me.

[David Josephs]

On the very afternoon of the assassination, Curry, Fritz, Wade and Alexander are told NOT to proceed under the assumption of a Communist Conspiracy... NOT to proceed with anything about Cubans... and to focus on Oswald as the lone suspect. To DENY reports that the FBI interviewed Oswald in the weeks prior.... and all this by those in LBJ's administration

If LBJ was in on it, then one has to conclude the SPONSORS were not interested in CUBA at all. Nor were they interested in WWIII with Russia. Issues in Africa, SE Asia, Oil and the Fed seem TO ME more in line with the desires at the SPONSOR level... while the lower levels appear to be doing it out of much more altruistic motivation.

And until it ACTUALLY HAPPENS... (Tampa, Chicago) it just remained plans and talk....

WHEN it does happen in LBJ's back yard... the "gold ole LBJ persona" kicks in and he begins taking advantage of the situation immediately.

Prior to ratification of the 25th Amendment, the rules of succession to the
Presidency were Constitutionally vague. The Constitution did not specify whether
the Vice President would become President or Acting President if the President
were to die, resign, be removed from office or become disabled.

So technically and legally(?) there was no defined POTUS from 1pm until 2:15 or so when LBJ is sworn in...

Was LBJ concerned over a military coup? He certainly did nothing (nor did the rest of the government other than the supposed bombers sent to Cuba and recalled) to prepare the nation and military for the follow-thru of what would have been seen as a "communist" anything.... Was there even air protection accompanying AF-1 back to DC? Any planes escorting the returning cabinet plane?

I think it very possible that LBJ's desire to be President - and his being surrounded by minions who appear to be able to do ANYTHING to help their man Lyndon - Fred Korth, Cliff Carter et al most potentially would have been involved in the facilitation and mechanic levels....

but do you or anyone else believe that LBJ had the power to order/coerce LeMay, Anderson, Galloway, Burkley, Kenney, etc to do what they did at Bethesda?
There is little or no motivation for participating in the medical cover-up other than the fear that JFK was a traitor and communist... so,

WHY would these military men, who wanted more than anything to go after Cuba and Russia, AGREE (or be leveraged) to assist in making the evidence conclude only shots from behind
and from the 6th floor high and to the right behind the victim (his has to be the only autopsy EVER that explains the process of the killing as opposed to the actualy physical evidence).

I have to disagree and feel that like so many others, LBJ was leveraged into silence and cooperation via a number of very vulnerable spots in his armor... and reminded via the brazen and public display...

that if he didn't play along, it could happen to him as well.

LBJ may - most likely - have been aware... but that was not his style... he was all about backrooms, cheating and secrets... and I simply do not blieve he would allow Jackie to be in harm's way, or even close to it.
Nope, LBJ played his part in what I believe was indeed a military coup, aided by the Secret Service and covered-up by plan via the FBI/SS/CIA who become the first and biggest line of defense...

I think the SPONSORS planned to lay this at the feet of the FBI/CIA so that "WE the People" would feel a sense of success when we uncovered all this great dirt.
State, ONI, Mil Int, INS and Immigration files are the hardest to get and contain the most contrived files when some finally are released.

Think about how history changes if the Chicago attempt succeeded... would we be having the same LBJ concerns in IL as we do in TX ??

[Marlene Zenker]

On the very afternoon of the assassination, Curry, Fritz, Wade and Alexander are told NOT to proceed under the assumption of a Communist Conspiracy... NOT to proceed with anything about Cubans... and to focus on Oswald as the lone suspect. To DENY reports that the FBI interviewed Oswald in the weeks prior.... and all this by those in LBJ's administration

If LBJ was in on it, then one has to conclude the SPONSORS were not interested in CUBA at all. Nor were they interested in WWIII with Russia. Issues in Africa, SE Asia, Oil and the Fed seem TO ME more in line with the desires at the SPONSOR level... while the lower levels appear to be doing it out of much more altruistic motivation.

And until it ACTUALLY HAPPENS... (Tampa, Chicago) it just remained plans and talk....

WHEN it does happen in LBJ's back yard... the "gold ole LBJ persona" kicks in and he begins taking advantage of the situation immediately.

Prior to ratification of the 25th Amendment, the rules of succession to the
Presidency were Constitutionally vague. The Constitution did not specify whether
the Vice President would become President or Acting President if the President
were to die, resign, be removed from office or become disabled.

So technically and legally(?) there was no defined POTUS from 1pm until 2:15 or so when LBJ is sworn in...

Was LBJ concerned over a military coup? He certainly did nothing (nor did the rest of the government other than the supposed bombers sent to Cuba and recalled) to prepare the nation and military for the follow-thru of what would have been seen as a "communist" anything.... Was there even air protection accompanying AF-1 back to DC? Any planes escorting the returning cabinet plane?

I think it very possible that LBJ's desire to be President - and his being surrounded by minions who appear to be able to do ANYTHING to help their man Lyndon - Fred Korth, Cliff Carter et al most potentially would have been involved in the facilitation and mechanic levels....

but do you or anyone else believe that LBJ had the power to order/coerce LeMay, Anderson, Galloway, Burkley, Kenney, etc to do what they did at Bethesda?
There is little or no motivation for participating in the medical cover-up other than the fear that JFK was a traitor and communist... so,

WHY would these military men, who wanted more than anything to go after Cuba and Russia, AGREE (or be leveraged) to assist in making the evidence conclude only shots from behind
and from the 6th floor high and to the right behind the victim (his has to be the only autopsy EVER that explains the process of the killing as opposed to the actualy physical evidence).

I have to disagree and feel that like so many others, LBJ was leveraged into silence and cooperation via a number of very vulnerable spots in his armor... and reminded via the brazen and public display...

that if he didn't play along, it could happen to him as well.

LBJ may - most likely - have been aware... but that was not his style... he was all about backrooms, cheating and secrets... and I simply do not blieve he would allow Jackie to be in harm's way, or even close to it.
Nope, LBJ played his part in what I believe was indeed a military coup, aided by the Secret Service and covered-up by plan via the FBI/SS/CIA who become the first and biggest line of defense...

I think the SPONSORS planned to lay this at the feet of the FBI/CIA so that "WE the People" would feel a sense of success when we uncovered all this great dirt.
State, ONI, Mil Int, INS and Immigration files are the hardest to get and contain the most contrived files when some finally are released.

Think about how history changes if the Chicago attempt succeeded... would we be having the same LBJ concerns in IL as we do in TX ??

I have always mostly dismissed LBJ pre-knowledge because he would have to be one crazy MF to ride in the motorcade knowing that there was going to be a crossfire. It makes no sense.

I think Johnson would have been somewhat suspect even if the assassination had happened in another city after all he was the direct beneficiary.

Re: no protection for Air Force One - I just re-listened to the Air Traffic Control recordings and was struck by the fact that no one, not the pilot, not the people in the Situation Room, not the military, said anything about protecting AF1, the White House or anyone/anything else. Their biggest concerns seemed to be whether the cabinet members who had turned around should go to Dallas from Hawaii or back to DC and near the end of the AF1's flight the confusion of how the casket was going to get to either Bethesda or Walter Reed and which of those hospitals they were taking it to. Very curious indeed.

[Tracy Riddle]

Good post, David. I do think legal scholars pretty much agreed that LBJ was President the moment JFK was dead. We've had many Presidents who died in office.

The amazing thing (and this shows how reckless LBJ was) is that we had no Vice President until January 1965 (when Humphrey was sworn in). And in 1964 Johnson was racing around his ranch at high speed while drinking, with reporters in the car ("Mr. President, you're fun," one of them cooed). If he had gotten killed, Speaker John McCormack would have succeeded him, and no one thought he was capable of handling that.

I think that LBJ and Hoover both heard rumors in the wind that people were plotting against JFK, and they passively did nothing to prevent it. But LBJ and Hoover would never have picked Oswald as the patsy - he created too many headaches for both of them. If they were the masterminds, they would have found some genuine non-political nut, an escapee from a mental asylum, to blame the assassination on.

But as Stanley Karnow wrote, LBJ told the Joint Chiefs at a Christmas Party a month after the assassination, "Just get me elected, and you can have your war." I agree that the lack of AF protection around AF1 during the flight back indicates people within the government knew there was no foreign threat.

[R.K. Locke]

On the very afternoon of the assassination, Curry, Fritz, Wade and Alexander are told NOT to proceed under the assumption of a Communist Conspiracy... NOT to proceed with anything about Cubans... and to focus on Oswald as the lone suspect. To DENY reports that the FBI interviewed Oswald in the weeks prior.... and all this by those in LBJ's administration

If LBJ was in on it, then one has to conclude the SPONSORS were not interested in CUBA at all. Nor were they interested in WWIII with Russia. Issues in Africa, SE Asia, Oil and the Fed seem TO ME more in line with the desires at the SPONSOR level... while the lower levels appear to be doing it out of much more altruistic motivation.

And until it ACTUALLY HAPPENS... (Tampa, Chicago) it just remained plans and talk....

WHEN it does happen in LBJ's back yard... the "gold ole LBJ persona" kicks in and he begins taking advantage of the situation immediately.

Prior to ratification of the 25th Amendment, the rules of succession to the
Presidency were Constitutionally vague. The Constitution did not specify whether
the Vice President would become President or Acting President if the President
were to die, resign, be removed from office or become disabled.

So technically and legally(?) there was no defined POTUS from 1pm until 2:15 or so when LBJ is sworn in...

Was LBJ concerned over a military coup? He certainly did nothing (nor did the rest of the government other than the supposed bombers sent to Cuba and recalled) to prepare the nation and military for the follow-thru of what would have been seen as a "communist" anything.... Was there even air protection accompanying AF-1 back to DC? Any planes escorting the returning cabinet plane?

I think it very possible that LBJ's desire to be President - and his being surrounded by minions who appear to be able to do ANYTHING to help their man Lyndon - Fred Korth, Cliff Carter et al most potentially would have been involved in the facilitation and mechanic levels....

but do you or anyone else believe that LBJ had the power to order/coerce LeMay, Anderson, Galloway, Burkley, Kenney, etc to do what they did at Bethesda?
There is little or no motivation for participating in the medical cover-up other than the fear that JFK was a traitor and communist... so,

WHY would these military men, who wanted more than anything to go after Cuba and Russia, AGREE (or be leveraged) to assist in making the evidence conclude only shots from behind
and from the 6th floor high and to the right behind the victim (his has to be the only autopsy EVER that explains the process of the killing as opposed to the actualy physical evidence).

I have to disagree and feel that like so many others, LBJ was leveraged into silence and cooperation via a number of very vulnerable spots in his armor... and reminded via the brazen and public display...

that if he didn't play along, it could happen to him as well.

LBJ may - most likely - have been aware... but that was not his style... he was all about backrooms, cheating and secrets... and I simply do not blieve he would allow Jackie to be in harm's way, or even close to it.
Nope, LBJ played his part in what I believe was indeed a military coup, aided by the Secret Service and covered-up by plan via the FBI/SS/CIA who become the first and biggest line of defense...

I think the SPONSORS planned to lay this at the feet of the FBI/CIA so that "WE the People" would feel a sense of success when we uncovered all this great dirt.
State, ONI, Mil Int, INS and Immigration files are the hardest to get and contain the most contrived files when some finally are released.

Think about how history changes if the Chicago attempt succeeded... would we be having the same LBJ concerns in IL as we do in TX ??

I agree with Charles Drago that the Chicago plot was always intended to be uncovered and thwarted. Are we really to believe, for example, that assassins engaged in the task of killing the sitting American President are likely to leave their rifles lying around in places where nosey rooming house ladies can find them? It doesn't seem at all likely to me.


LBJ was of course one of the key facilitators of the cover-up, but had very little (if anything) to do with the assassination itself. I think it is likely that he had some prior knowledge but we will probably never know for sure. It goes without saying that he was NOT one of the Sponsors.


Your question regarding the military is a good one. I don't see "the military" as the Sponsors of the crime, but it is certainly worth considering how they were made to toe the line in light of their bellicose intentions vis-à-vis Cuba and Russia. It is a complex issue and is not one that I currently have a totally satisfying answer for.

[David Josephs]

On the very afternoon of the assassination, Curry, Fritz, Wade and Alexander are told NOT to proceed under the assumption of a Communist Conspiracy... NOT to proceed with anything about Cubans... and to focus on Oswald as the lone suspect. To DENY reports that the FBI interviewed Oswald in the weeks prior.... and all this by those in LBJ's administration

If LBJ was in on it, then one has to conclude the SPONSORS were not interested in CUBA at all. Nor were they interested in WWIII with Russia. Issues in Africa, SE Asia, Oil and the Fed seem TO ME more in line with the desires at the SPONSOR level... while the lower levels appear to be doing it out of much more altruistic motivation.

And until it ACTUALLY HAPPENS... (Tampa, Chicago) it just remained plans and talk....

WHEN it does happen in LBJ's back yard... the "gold ole LBJ persona" kicks in and he begins taking advantage of the situation immediately.

Prior to ratification of the 25th Amendment, the rules of succession to the
Presidency were Constitutionally vague. The Constitution did not specify whether
the Vice President would become President or Acting President if the President
were to die, resign, be removed from office or become disabled.

So technically and legally(?) there was no defined POTUS from 1pm until 2:15 or so when LBJ is sworn in...

Was LBJ concerned over a military coup? He certainly did nothing (nor did the rest of the government other than the supposed bombers sent to Cuba and recalled) to prepare the nation and military for the follow-thru of what would have been seen as a "communist" anything.... Was there even air protection accompanying AF-1 back to DC? Any planes escorting the returning cabinet plane?

I think it very possible that LBJ's desire to be President - and his being surrounded by minions who appear to be able to do ANYTHING to help their man Lyndon - Fred Korth, Cliff Carter et al most potentially would have been involved in the facilitation and mechanic levels....

but do you or anyone else believe that LBJ had the power to order/coerce LeMay, Anderson, Galloway, Burkley, Kenney, etc to do what they did at Bethesda?
There is little or no motivation for participating in the medical cover-up other than the fear that JFK was a traitor and communist... so,

WHY would these military men, who wanted more than anything to go after Cuba and Russia, AGREE (or be leveraged) to assist in making the evidence conclude only shots from behind
and from the 6th floor high and to the right behind the victim (his has to be the only autopsy EVER that explains the process of the killing as opposed to the actualy physical evidence).

I have to disagree and feel that like so many others, LBJ was leveraged into silence and cooperation via a number of very vulnerable spots in his armor... and reminded via the brazen and public display...

that if he didn't play along, it could happen to him as well.

LBJ may - most likely - have been aware... but that was not his style... he was all about backrooms, cheating and secrets... and I simply do not blieve he would allow Jackie to be in harm's way, or even close to it.
Nope, LBJ played his part in what I believe was indeed a military coup, aided by the Secret Service and covered-up by plan via the FBI/SS/CIA who become the first and biggest line of defense...

I think the SPONSORS planned to lay this at the feet of the FBI/CIA so that "WE the People" would feel a sense of success when we uncovered all this great dirt.
State, ONI, Mil Int, INS and Immigration files are the hardest to get and contain the most contrived files when some finally are released.

Think about how history changes if the Chicago attempt succeeded... would we be having the same LBJ concerns in IL as we do in TX ??

I agree with Charles Drago that the Chicago plot was always intended to be uncovered and thwarted. Are we really to believe, for example, that assassins engaged in the task of killing the sitting American President are likely to leave their rifles lying around in places where nosey rooming house ladies can find them? It doesn't seem at all likely to me.


LBJ was of course one of the key facilitators of the cover-up, but had very little (if anything) to do with the assassination itself. I think it is likely that he had some prior knowledge but we will probably never know for sure. It goes without saying that he was NOT one of the Sponsors.


Your question regarding the military is a good one. I don't see "the military" as the Sponsors of the crime, but it is certainly worth considering how they were made to tow the line in light of their bellicose intentions vis-à-vis Cuba and Russia. It is a complex issue and is not one that I currently have a totally satisfying answer for.

The problem I have with that line of thought about Chicago is the manner it was covered up by the SS... and the followup reports from FBI Chicago AFTER the assassination which all go out of their way to refocus Chicago squarely on Vallee.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archiv...elPageId=2

WCD 47 has an awful lot of info on Vallee (and is only one of a few Chicago FBI reports) and even attempts to add the name OSWALD into the Chicago mix.

Additionally - the SS did all it could to squash Chicago info from getting out prior to 11/22. If this was to be uncovered wouldn't the response for the rest of Nov '63's trip be an INCREASE in protection...
That it was hushed up and then not given to the SS agents from the PRS as a warning of potential danger in Dallas is very telling. The SS is aware of NO THREATS IN DALLAS although both Chicago and Tampa encountered trouble and the SS-PRS knew that killers in one state NEVER travel to another.... ::laughingdog::




.......
I am curious as to why you feel that LeMay, Korth, Anderson, Taylor etc... could not be SPONSORS given that the CIA and FBI and DPD personnel ALL had served in the military... ALL understood chain of command and the power of the military to silence... that the CIA was only as successful as their MILITARY SUPPORT...... that the MILITARY set up the CIA/SS/FBI to take the fall since THEY didn't do it... Oswald as layer 1, CIA/SS/FBI as layer 2-500... players like ONI, DIA, NSA, NSC, MI and a host of other MILITARY INTELLIEGENCE AGENCIES, INS and STATE are the revolving MICC door.

I only say so since I firmly believe that the SPONSOR level of the world is in a position to take advantage of any way the wind blows while doing what they do to MAKE the wind blow in the directions they prefer.

I guess we can say that these SPONSORS set the ball in motion by having the MILITARY play the game of both (false)-SPONSOR and FACILITATOR... yet I still fail to see the distinction between the INDUSTRIAL and CONGRESSIONAL portions of the "Mil Ind Congr Complex" from the MILITARY ones... where and what do all these ex-military do for a living after they retire ??

If the JCS is not SPONSOR material... why not? I'd truly like to understand that distinction given this definition:
Thanks
DJ
SPONSORS -- Those with the authority andmotive to sanction the assassination and the connections to engage facilitatingagents and systems.