Tracy Riddle Wrote:If Harvey was really the one picked up by the station wagon at around 12:40, why does it take 20 minutes to reach his rooming house and drop him off at 1pm? Was he then picked up again and driven to the Texas Theater to meet a contact (as John Martino claimed)? But if they already had him in a station wagon, why didn't they just drive him to Red Bird airport or wherever instead of all these drop-offs?
Maybe I'm just stuck on Martino's claims (that they had planned to get Oswald out of Texas). It makes perfect sense - rather than having a live or dead patsy in the hands of the DPD, the "assassin" just disappears. Then the CIA assets put out the word he was seen flying to Mexico, then to Cuba, and Castro is then accused of harboring him. Oswald is actually dead by this time, his body dumped in a Louisiana swamp, but the American people are being whipped up to invade Cuba to find him.
I agree with this as well. It makes little sense to me that they would try to arrange to frame him for the murder of a policeman in the hopes that he would be killed in the process of the police arresting him as a cop killer. Too much left to chance. And indeed why if they could drive him to the theatre, would they not just drive him to Red Bird or wherever, and dispose of him. So the question is how did HARVEY get to the theatre by the time he is first seen there around 1:10? Would it have been possible for him to have gotten there by bus?
I think it was American-born LEE who was picked up by the station wagon, not Russian-speaking Harvey. Harvey took McWatters' bus, and there was traffic, explaining the time to get to the boarding house. The police would be unlikely to assassinate someone, even a cop killer, in a public theater with a number of obvious and close witnesses.
As to sending a corpse--or a live body--to Cuba and blaming Castro that way, that sounds pretty dangerous to me: customs of two nations, for starters. Lot's of things could go wrong. I think they wanted a live body to parade in front of the cameras and look guilty for a day or two.
Tracy Riddle Wrote:If Harvey was really the one picked up by the station wagon at around 12:40, why does it take 20 minutes to reach his rooming house and drop him off at 1pm? Was he then picked up again and driven to the Texas Theater to meet a contact (as John Martino claimed)? But if they already had him in a station wagon, why didn't they just drive him to Red Bird airport or wherever instead of all these drop-offs?
Maybe I'm just stuck on Martino's claims (that they had planned to get Oswald out of Texas). It makes perfect sense - rather than having a live or dead patsy in the hands of the DPD, the "assassin" just disappears. Then the CIA assets put out the word he was seen flying to Mexico, then to Cuba, and Castro is then accused of harboring him. Oswald is actually dead by this time, his body dumped in a Louisiana swamp, but the American people are being whipped up to invade Cuba to find him.
I agree with this as well. It makes little sense to me that they would try to arrange to frame him for the murder of a policeman in the hopes that he would be killed in the process of the police arresting him as a cop killer. Too much left to chance. And indeed why if they could drive him to the theatre, would they not just drive him to Red Bird or wherever, and dispose of him. So the question is how did HARVEY get to the theatre by the time he is first seen there around 1:10? Would it have been possible for him to have gotten there by bus?
I think it was American-born LEE who was picked up by the station wagon, not Russian-speaking Harvey. Harvey took McWatters' bus, and there was traffic, explaining the time to get to the boarding house. The police would be unlikely to assassinate someone, even a cop killer, in a public theater with a number of obvious and close witnesses.
As to sending a corpse--or a live body--to Cuba and blaming Castro that way, that sounds pretty dangerous to me: customs of two nations, for starters. Lot's of things could go wrong. I think they wanted a live body to parade in front of the cameras and look guilty for a day or two.
Jim
Can we jump back a bit. Whether there was a Harvey & Lee which I tend to believe or whether there was an Oswald double that day to set him up or whether there was no actual double, just a killer of Tippit to frame Oswald, and, based on what I and I think everyone here believes which is that Osawald didn't kill anyone what did Oswald think he was doing?
Did he just work at the TSBD because Ruth Paine got him a job there before he found something else? and did he or didn't he know who the Paine's were or who de Mohrenchildt was or was he completely used?
Or
Did he have an actual purpose in living in Dallas, living with the Paine's, working at the TSBD?
If. the latter, who was he working for or with? Did he tip off the Chicago Plot? Did he know the Paine's were agents of some sort or specifically CIA? Did he think they were patriots trying to protect JFK? Was he planted there to spy on the Paine's? If so, by whom? Did he think they were bad guys?
If he was supposed to in some way prevent the assassination what if anything do his actions on 11/22 show that indicates that he did to that end?
Tracy Riddle Wrote:If Harvey was really the one picked up by the station wagon at around 12:40, why does it take 20 minutes to reach his rooming house and drop him off at 1pm? Was he then picked up again and driven to the Texas Theater to meet a contact (as John Martino claimed)? But if they already had him in a station wagon, why didn't they just drive him to Red Bird airport or wherever instead of all these drop-offs?
Maybe I'm just stuck on Martino's claims (that they had planned to get Oswald out of Texas). It makes perfect sense - rather than having a live or dead patsy in the hands of the DPD, the "assassin" just disappears. Then the CIA assets put out the word he was seen flying to Mexico, then to Cuba, and Castro is then accused of harboring him. Oswald is actually dead by this time, his body dumped in a Louisiana swamp, but the American people are being whipped up to invade Cuba to find him.
I agree with this as well. It makes little sense to me that they would try to arrange to frame him for the murder of a policeman in the hopes that he would be killed in the process of the police arresting him as a cop killer. Too much left to chance. And indeed why if they could drive him to the theatre, would they not just drive him to Red Bird or wherever, and dispose of him. So the question is how did HARVEY get to the theatre by the time he is first seen there around 1:10? Would it have been possible for him to have gotten there by bus?
I think it was American-born LEE who was picked up by the station wagon, not Russian-speaking Harvey. Harvey took McWatters' bus, and there was traffic, explaining the time to get to the boarding house. The police would be unlikely to assassinate someone, even a cop killer, in a public theater with a number of obvious and close witnesses.
As to sending a corpse--or a live body--to Cuba and blaming Castro that way, that sounds pretty dangerous to me: customs of two nations, for starters. Lot's of things could go wrong. I think they wanted a live body to parade in front of the cameras and look guilty for a day or two.
Jim
I don't know what you mean by sending a corpse to Cuba. They find a gun, link it to Oswald, who can't be found. His connections to Cuba and Castro are released in a timely fashion, triggering a public out cry for counter measures against Castro. This seems a lot more manageable and less risky than allowing him to be arrested by an inept DPD and risking Oswald making damaging public statements to the press.
Tracy Riddle Wrote:If Harvey was really the one picked up by the station wagon at around 12:40, why does it take 20 minutes to reach his rooming house and drop him off at 1pm? Was he then picked up again and driven to the Texas Theater to meet a contact (as John Martino claimed)? But if they already had him in a station wagon, why didn't they just drive him to Red Bird airport or wherever instead of all these drop-offs?
Maybe I'm just stuck on Martino's claims (that they had planned to get Oswald out of Texas). It makes perfect sense - rather than having a live or dead patsy in the hands of the DPD, the "assassin" just disappears. Then the CIA assets put out the word he was seen flying to Mexico, then to Cuba, and Castro is then accused of harboring him. Oswald is actually dead by this time, his body dumped in a Louisiana swamp, but the American people are being whipped up to invade Cuba to find him.
I agree with this as well. It makes little sense to me that they would try to arrange to frame him for the murder of a policeman in the hopes that he would be killed in the process of the police arresting him as a cop killer. Too much left to chance. And indeed why if they could drive him to the theatre, would they not just drive him to Red Bird or wherever, and dispose of him. So the question is how did HARVEY get to the theatre by the time he is first seen there around 1:10? Would it have been possible for him to have gotten there by bus?
I think it was American-born LEE who was picked up by the station wagon, not Russian-speaking Harvey. Harvey took McWatters' bus, and there was traffic, explaining the time to get to the boarding house. The police would be unlikely to assassinate someone, even a cop killer, in a public theater with a number of obvious and close witnesses.
As to sending a corpse--or a live body--to Cuba and blaming Castro that way, that sounds pretty dangerous to me: customs of two nations, for starters. Lot's of things could go wrong. I think they wanted a live body to parade in front of the cameras and look guilty for a day or two.
Jim
Can we jump back a bit. Whether there was a Harvey & Lee which I tend to believe or whether there was an Oswald double that day to set him up or whether there was no actual double, just a killer of Tippit to frame Oswald, and, based on what I and I think everyone here believes which is that Osawald didn't kill anyone what did Oswald think he was doing?
Did he just work at the TSBD because Ruth Paine got him a job there before he found something else? and did he or didn't he know who the Paine's were or who de Mohrenchildt was or was he completely used?
Or
Did he have an actual purpose in living in Dallas, living with the Paine's, working at the TSBD?
If. the latter, who was he working for or with? Did he tip off the Chicago Plot? Did he know the Paine's were agents of some sort or specifically CIA? Did he think they were patriots trying to protect JFK? Was he planted there to spy on the Paine's? If so, by whom? Did he think they were bad guys?
If he was supposed to in some way prevent the assassination what if anything do his actions on 11/22 show that indicates that he did to that end?
I think there are two main scenarios, a) the HARVEY/LEE one and b) the CIA manipulated Oswald, who was impersonated by different people in order to make him the patsy. If we take the HARVEY/LEE scenario then I would think HARVEY is mostly in the dark or in keeping with his New Orleans FPFC pose, working with the Paines to ferret out students in Dallas who would be pro Castro. LEE is working with the Dallas anti-Castro Cubans, setting up HARVEY and is most likely one of the TSBD shooters. He shot Tippit because Tippit (assigned to pick up HARVEY and deliver him to those who would then dispose of him) mistook him for HARVEY and attempted to arrest him. He was shot for his trouble and LEE dropped the wallet, improvising a cover. If b) then Oswald was infiltrating the Dallas anti-Castro community and reporting to the FBI. He could have gotten wind of the assassination plot and reported it, while still maintaining his cover. He could have had to play some role in the plan in order to do so. In either case he was unaware of what the Paines were really up to i.e. setting him up.
Jim Hargrove Wrote:As to sending a corpse--or a live body--to Cuba and blaming Castro that way, that sounds pretty dangerous to me: customs of two nations, for starters. Lot's of things could go wrong. I think they wanted a live body to parade in front of the cameras and look guilty for a day or two.
Jim
No, Oswald would disappear somewhere in the States but would never be found - perhaps flown from Red Bird airport to Louisiana - but the CIA assets would put out stories that the plane landed in Mexico, and another plane then took him to Cuba. Gilberto Policarpo Lopez, who actually did go to Cuba via Mexico, might have somehow been involved in this fake narrative.
Even though this cover story didn't work out, CIA-connected people like Gilberto Ugarte Alvarado, Frank Sturgis, John Martino and others still put out stories to media assets like James Buchanan about Oswald being seen meeting with Castro agents and taking money from them. As Gerald McKnight wrote, "the first JFK conspiracy theory to find its way into print was paid for by George E. Joannides, a CIA psychological warfare specialist."
Marlene Zenker Wrote:Can we jump back a bit. Whether there was a Harvey & Lee which I tend to believe or whether there was an Oswald double that day to set him up or whether there was no actual double, just a killer of Tippit to frame Oswald, and, based on what I and I think everyone here believes which is that Osawald didn't kill anyone what did Oswald think he was doing?
Did he just work at the TSBD because Ruth Paine got him a job there before he found something else? and did he or didn't he know who the Paine's were or who de Mohrenchildt was or was he completely used?
Or
Did he have an actual purpose in living in Dallas, living with the Paine's, working at the TSBD?
If. the latter, who was he working for or with? Did he tip off the Chicago Plot? Did he know the Paine's were agents of some sort or specifically CIA? Did he think they were patriots trying to protect JFK? Was he planted there to spy on the Paine's? If so, by whom? Did he think they were bad guys?
If he was supposed to in some way prevent the assassination what if anything do his actions on 11/22 show that indicates that he did to that end?
I think there are two main scenarios, a) the HARVEY/LEE one and b) the CIA manipulated Oswald, who was impersonated by different people in order to make him the patsy. If we take the HARVEY/LEE scenario then I would think HARVEY is mostly in the dark or in keeping with his New Orleans FPFC pose, working with the Paines to ferret out students in Dallas who would be pro Castro. LEE is working with the Dallas anti-Castro Cubans, setting up HARVEY and is most likely one of the TSBD shooters. He shot Tippit because Tippit (assigned to pick up HARVEY and deliver him to those who would then dispose of him) mistook him for HARVEY and attempted to arrest him. He was shot for his trouble and LEE dropped the wallet, improvising a cover. If b) then Oswald was infiltrating the Dallas anti-Castro community and reporting to the FBI. He could have gotten wind of the assassination plot and reported it, while still maintaining his cover. He could have had to play some role in the plan in order to do so. In either case he was unaware of what the Paines were really up to i.e. setting him up.
The best way to answer some of Marlene's questions might be to point out that both Harvey and Lee were intelligence agents, often surrounded by other intelligence agents, and both of them were following orders. In some respects, what they thought and what they believed were irrelevant.
As to Gordon's A/B analysis, whether there were two living, breathing LHOs or just one and a series of impostors, that's an essential question, and to answer it requires a long look at the available evidence. The photographic evidence from Mexico City in 1963 seems to suggest that there were Oswald impostors--at least there--who were neither Harvey nor Lee. But for the most part, the evidence we have for just about everything else seems entirely consistent with just two guys. I can't summarize it all here: it took Armstrong a thousand pages and a CD to cover it all, and my website is becoming just about as long.
But as far back as 1960 Hoover wrote a memo stating that an impostor might be using LHO's birth certificate, and even earlier, school records and USMC evidence often clearly points to two different guys, and there is a wealth of other material. And it is obvious that someone or someones were were setting up Harvey Oswald in the weeks leading up to the assassination. Who better to use than the real LHO?
At left, LEE Oswald in 1958 from Robert Oswald's book, LEE.
How come the 1958 photo of Lee looks like a total fake?
"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.â€
Buckminster Fuller
At left, LEE Oswald in 1958 from Robert Oswald's book, LEE.
How come the 1958 photo of Lee looks like a total fake?
It's a reprint of a copy of an image from a newspaper.... There are numerous GOOD images of LEE during the time in the marines....
Here's one from June 57
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Here is JAPAN... but not really, thanks to John
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an interesting tangent... the famous KOSTIKOV from the Russian embassy in Mexico City is, imo, a very close match to OSWALD... would have been better to take his photo and send it up to FBI as the OSWALD caller... ::
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Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
While the above images are 5 years apart, HARVEY on the left used that ID to secure a passport on Sept 4 in LA, CA... yet he used it 7 days before he was supposed to have actually rec'd it.
He also goes on to state on his travel docs that he got his passport in NOLA.
A copy of this ID is found in Nagell's possession... yet the signatures do not match and there is no seal of the govt.
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Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
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